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Regional Boards => Mid-Atlantic => Topic started by: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2009, 06:43:36 PM

Title: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2009, 06:43:36 PM
What are your thoughts of the planned new US 460 toll road between I-295 in Petersburg and US 13/58 in Suffolk?  This could also include thoughts on the current US 460.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alex on February 19, 2009, 09:27:11 PM
Do you have website on this project? This is the first time I've heard of it.

What are some of the details?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: FLRoads on February 19, 2009, 10:21:04 PM
From what I have read on the VDOT website, the U.S. 460 corridor project you speak of will not be a toll facility but instead be a free limited-access facility on new alignment south of the current U.S. 460 between Interstate 295 and U.S. 58. The final FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) was signed by the FHWA in June 2008. For more indepth information on this project, please click here (http://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/new460_ppta_base.asp).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2009, 10:21:21 PM
http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_main.asp (http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_main.asp)This is from VDOT'S website.  This has actually been planned for a while but right now there are no funds for this project whatsoever.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2009, 10:51:08 PM
Quote from: flaroadgeek on February 19, 2009, 10:21:04 PM
From what I have read on the VDOT website, the U.S. 460 corridor project you speak of will not be a toll facility but instead be a free limited-access facility on new alignment south of the current U.S. 460 between Interstate 295 and U.S. 58. The final FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) was signed by the FHWA in June 2008. For more indepth information on this project, please click here (http://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/new460_ppta_base.asp).
Here are 3 conceptual proposals from 2006 and all 3 of them involve tolls(including one involving a toll on I-64 west of Williamsburg)http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_ppta_concepts.asp (http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_ppta_concepts.asp) And VDOT is currently requesting detailed proposals by August 14(just click news from the link above and it is the first article)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: FLRoads on February 19, 2009, 11:23:04 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on February 19, 2009, 10:51:08 PM
Quote from: flaroadgeek on February 19, 2009, 10:21:04 PM
From what I have read on the VDOT website, the U.S. 460 corridor project you speak of will not be a toll facility but instead be a free limited-access facility on new alignment south of the current U.S. 460 between Interstate 295 and U.S. 58. The final FEIS (Final Environmental Impact Statement) was signed by the FHWA in June 2008. For more indepth information on this project, please click here (http://www.vdot.virginia.gov/projects/new460_ppta_base.asp).
Here are 3 conceptual proposals from 2006 and all 3 of them involve tolls(including one involving a toll on I-64 west of Williamsburg)http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_ppta_concepts.asp (http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/new460_ppta_concepts.asp) And VDOT is currently requesting detailed proposals by August 14(just click news from the link above and it is the first article)

I do stand corrected on the fact that it is not 100% certain that it will be a free limited access highway instead of a tolled one. After reading the FEIS (http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/0808_Rt460FEIS.pdf) a little bit further I found the following text:

2.6 TOLL FEASIBILITY STUDY
Following issuance of CTB Resolutions, an independent toll feasibility study was conducted to evaluate
issues related to implementing tolls on CBA 1 and a previously considered alternative. Given the current level
of design associated with a Location Study of this type along with outstanding issues associated with a toll
option, it is too early in the project development process to determine if the Preferred Alternative would be
constructed and operated as a toll facility, or to determine a potential toll structure. As a result, those traffic
forecasts and impact analysis discussed in this final EIS that rely on traffic forecasts (e.g. air quality and
noise) do not consider a tolling option.

So, it does look like that it is too early to determine whether or not the proposed route will be built as a toll facility or not.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on February 20, 2009, 08:51:43 PM
Meh... I've never driven 460 when going to Richmond, but I've heard it's clogged with truck traffic. Unless that is truly the case, then I don't think VDOT should bother, and just put that money towards I-64, which is a faster route anyway. And I've been hearing about that toll road study for years in local newspapers (back when I used to read them), but nothing ever got done, and I doubt that it ever will.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 21, 2009, 09:54:00 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 20, 2009, 08:51:43 PM
Meh... I've never driven 460 when going to Richmond, but I've heard it's clogged with truck traffic. Unless that is truly the case, then I don't think VDOT should bother, and just put that money towards I-64, which is a faster route anyway. And I've been hearing about that toll road study for years in local newspapers (back when I used to read them), but nothing ever got done, and I doubt that it ever will.
I just checked the VDOT  traffic data for US 460 in 2007 and throughout it had 19% trucks. VDOT has them by jurisdiction though so just look for US 460 in Prince George, Sussex, Southampton, and Isle of Wight counties along with the City of Suffolk. http://www.virginiadot.org/info/ct-TrafficCounts-Juris2007.asp#P (http://www.virginiadot.org/info/ct-TrafficCounts-Juris2007.asp#P)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 01, 2009, 10:34:06 PM
I know that this is slightly OT, but the topic does not say US 460 between Petersburg and Suffolk.  Anyhow does anyone know what's up with the posting of US 460 signs on Wagner Rd.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on April 09, 2009, 01:43:37 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on March 01, 2009, 10:34:06 PM
I know that this is slightly OT, but the topic does not say US 460 between Petersburg and Suffolk.  Anyhow does anyone know what's up with the posting of US 460 signs on Wagner Rd including this one on Wagner Rd at I-95.(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FWAGNER_RD_AT_I-95_N_AND_US_460_W.jpg&hash=b256991c5e68c7c9d41c722645fd645a1c260471) This was taken on my phone before I got a camera BTW.

The US 460/interstate duplex was extended to Wagner Rd a couple years ago. US 460 then exits I-95 at Wagner Rd and follows it to VA 106.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 09, 2009, 03:27:25 PM
Quote
The US 460/interstate duplex was extended to Wagner Rd a couple years ago. US 460 then exits I-95 at Wagner Rd and follows it to VA 106.
Its horribly posted though especially on I-95 at Wagner Rd specifically and at the US 460 intersection at VA 106 last I checked.  Soon I'm going to get photos of this.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: nerdly_dood on April 09, 2009, 11:10:17 PM
I honestly would hate to have 460 become a toll road. I live in Roanoke, VA so 460 is a straight shot across Virginia past Lynchburg and Richmond to the Hampton Roads region. Whenever I'm going to the OBX most of the trip is on 460, with a bit of driving on I-64, followed by a right onto the Chesapeake Expressway (rt. 168) and at some point along that road there's a toll booth, which from my experience has seemed like one of those necessary evils - two dollars for a continued trip. I'll have to do some thinking about how to avoid that toll booth for the next time I go there.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 11, 2009, 06:27:24 AM
QuoteQuote
The US 460/interstate duplex was extended to Wagner Rd a couple years ago. US 460 then exits I-95 at Wagner Rd and follows it to VA 106.

It should be noted that this "extension" and reroute is not signed.
Its partially posted on Wagner Rd WB but only west of VA 106.  There's a shield at the railroad intersection and US 460 West shields at the exit for I-95 North.  Might get photos of this mess with my real camera today :nod:
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 12, 2009, 02:08:42 PM
Here are photos of US 460 West on Wagner Rd.  The first photo is a US 460 West shield at just past the railroad bridge.  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS460WESTWESTOFVA106.jpg&hash=20925b9e51b09aa76234ae1be86d7a3060cf6360)

Here's US 460 West exiting onto I-95 North after a signal at Normandy Dr.  A US 460 shield has been added to the overhead in the first photo (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS460WESTATEXITONTOI-95NORTH-1.jpg&hash=440c9537df43b1f0b421f27dfa49b4e6a65e40eb)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FUS460WESTATEXITONTOI-95NORTH2.jpg&hash=5e7140f6bfb0575b095aa78746b5017e744ee9e1)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 13, 2009, 09:16:38 PM
Now signage on I-95 South directing US 460 East Traffic to use Wagner Rd.  The first photo is just north of the split with I-85 directing US 460 East traffic to stay on I-95 South.  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-95SOUTHNEARI-85SOUTHANDUS460WESTE.jpg&hash=a0c4df910d832f884ac2152d91feec419deff099)

Here's how signage has looked at the exit for US 301/US 460 Business(Exit 50) for years before US 460 was put onto I-95 to Wagner Rd(Exit 48).  However, US 460 is not posted at all on I-95 itself in both directions.  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-95SOUTHATUS301ANDUS460BUSINESSEXI.jpg&hash=ec86f1467a219afe2996ccbd7d8827be064313ea)

The only indication to use Wagner Rd, which is now US 460, to access US 460 East.  There are actually two of these signs; however, I only photographed the first one.  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-95SOUTHNEARUS460EASTMERGE.jpg&hash=3d621bace0fd420f4e32b8ac79326797c9a8fbb2)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 21, 2009, 08:31:07 PM
One of the companies has dropped out of the bidding for the planned  US 460 (http://www.tidewaternews.com/news/2009/apr/20/company-withdraws-road-project/)toll road between I-295 near Petersburg and US 13/US 58 in Suffolk?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 11, 2009, 12:03:53 PM
Anyway does anyone know what's going on at the intersection of US 460 and VA 156 in Prince George County?  I went through there the other day and I'm not sure what is exactly going on there
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 11, 2009, 01:51:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 11, 2009, 12:59:23 PM
According to this VDOT news release (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/richmond/2009/transportation_commissioner_approves_two39245.asp), it's a pavement repair and reconstruction project.

I already read that but I also saw supports for a possible new signal when I drove through.  I'll get photos at some point since it was raining Tuesday.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 17, 2009, 08:41:17 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on June 11, 2009, 01:51:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 11, 2009, 12:59:23 PM
According to this VDOT news release (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/richmond/2009/transportation_commissioner_approves_two39245.asp), it's a pavement repair and reconstruction project.

I already read that but I also saw supports for a possible new signal when I drove through.  I'll get photos at some point since it was raining Tuesday.
Since VDOT reconfigured the intersection due to the project they added temporary signals for US 460 traffic at VA 156
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 06, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
Plans to help make US 460 a limited-access highway between US 501 and US 29 could start next year  http://www2.newsadvance.com/lna/news/opinion/editorials/article/a_step_toward_making_part_of_u.s._460_safer/18118/ (http://www2.newsadvance.com/lna/news/opinion/editorials/article/a_step_toward_making_part_of_u.s._460_safer/18118/)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on August 07, 2009, 03:59:40 PM
My understanding is the ultimate goal is to make it a freeway-style facility, but the money doesn't exist yet for that.  The project that may begin next year would close the median crossings, but wouldn't eliminate the private access points or intersections...it'd just make them right-in/right-outs only.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: njroadhorse on August 07, 2009, 05:22:16 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on August 06, 2009, 12:08:00 PM
Plans to help make US 460 a limited-access highway between US 501 and US 29 could start next year  http://www2.newsadvance.com/lna/news/opinion/editorials/article/a_step_toward_making_part_of_u.s._460_safer/18118/ (http://www2.newsadvance.com/lna/news/opinion/editorials/article/a_step_toward_making_part_of_u.s._460_safer/18118/)
Isn't 460 sort of a freeway already between 501 and 29?  When I drove it in 2008, it seemed like it was.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: leifvanderwall on September 23, 2009, 08:22:17 PM
The US 460 corridor from Roanoke to Suffolk should be an interstate corridor and I would build a new US 460 freeway to bypass the I-95/I-85/I-295 jcts. just south of Petersburg. In "If I controlled the highway system" the US 460 corridor would be my extended I-40 corridor and I would have a I-140 branch at Burkeville (US 360) go to Richmond.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 07, 2009, 04:19:36 PM
Plans for the US 460 Toll Road postponed for a long while a few weeks ago.  Like my history teacher said he'll probably be in a wheelchair when that happens  ;-)  http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_460_0922sep22,0,6092304.story (http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_460_0922sep22,0,6092304.story)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 07, 2009, 07:05:01 PM
It could be that many people may have been against it. Not too many people like toll roads.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on October 08, 2009, 05:52:40 AM
That's not really the issue here.  The underlying issues here are high construction cost, the bad credit market, and the proposals submitted thus far still ask VDOT for more highway funding than they have available.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: leifvanderwall on October 08, 2009, 08:17:02 PM
That's soon going to be case with many proposed routes if the economy will not improve soon
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on October 09, 2009, 08:11:24 PM
That's the case, period.  Consider that, as the economy improves...not just ours but the global economy...oil, cement, and steel will again be in demand, and so construction costs will once again increase.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on July 15, 2010, 03:48:33 PM
On Monday on the way to Blacksburg I noticed that US 460 on the Farmville Bypass has mile markers(for US 460 not US 15) now starting at 248(which is actually just west of the bypass) and ending at 256.

EDIT: I originally posted 255 but today I noticed it actually ended at 256.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 3467 on July 17, 2010, 11:42:10 PM
http://progress-index.com/news/plan-to-replace-u-s-460-carries-high-price-tag-1.876884
A July 2010 Story

A Facinating Road To compare costs its about 40 feet of pavement 4 10 foot lanes . I know a 3 lane in illinois -passing lanes or a center turn lane would be about as wide and those are running 3.5 million per mile. So just to recreate this road would be a couple of hundred million dollars.
It seems Construction expenses are still way high despite the economy
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alps on July 19, 2010, 08:07:14 PM
Quote from: 3467 on July 17, 2010, 11:42:10 PM
http://progress-index.com/news/plan-to-replace-u-s-460-carries-high-price-tag-1.876884
A July 2010 Story

A Facinating Road To compare costs its about 40 feet of pavement 4 10 foot lanes . I know a 3 lane in illinois -passing lanes or a center turn lane would be about as wide and those are running 3.5 million per mile. So just to recreate this road would be a couple of hundred million dollars.
It seems Construction expenses are still way high despite the economy

Seems like this would become an eastern extension of I-85.  Tolls would probably preclude this becoming an Interstate, but you never know.  Would it be an extension of I-264, would it be a revival of VA 264, would it be signed US 460...  Not to get too far into the fictional realm, but how about I-62?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on July 19, 2010, 09:27:32 PM
QuoteSeems like this would become an eastern extension of I-85.

Not really.  As planned, the western terminus of the toll road is I-295.

QuoteWould it be an extension of I-264, would it be a revival of VA 264, would it be signed US 460...

VDOT is planning this as a US 460 replacement.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 20, 2010, 04:45:06 PM
http://www.wvec.com/traffic/news/VDOT--98835694.html

VDOT's agreed to pay part of the cost of a new US-460 toll road now.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on July 20, 2010, 09:09:29 PM
I have to wonder where the heck VDOT found the money to cover their part...
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 21, 2010, 06:55:19 PM
Possibly the same place the state found that random $200 million budget surplus after saying they were broke?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on July 21, 2010, 07:48:36 PM
Unless they furloughed more VDOT personnel than they said they would, I don't think that'll be the case.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 3467 on July 21, 2010, 11:27:54 PM
http://www.virginiadot.org/ppta_projects/route_460/default.asp

An updated Website
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on September 09, 2010, 04:15:16 PM
VDOT posted a news release (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2010/vdot_receives_three_conceptual48345.asp) today stating that they have received 3 proposals for constructing US 460...submissions were due by the 7th (this past Tuesday).  Not surprisingly, one of the groups is headed by Cinta.  Curiously, another of the groups includes Bank of America.

VDOT has 30 days to review and quality-check the proposals before approving them for the next step in the process.  Those proposals that are accepted will be posted on the project website.


Title: Re: US 460
Post by: njroadhorse on September 09, 2010, 11:55:23 PM
Am I the only one that thinks the US 460 and US 58 designations should be switched?  US 460 covers a lot more ground than US 58 does, and serves more important areas than US 58.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 10, 2010, 07:07:31 PM
Would the number fit though? i.e., does 460 cross 60? And wouldn't an odd first digit be better suited to replace US 58, considering that only one end of it is at US 60?

Personally though I would prefer they not be switched. Everyone around here already knows of them by those numbers.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alps on September 11, 2010, 09:54:35 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 10, 2010, 07:07:31 PM
Would the number fit though? i.e., does 460 cross 60? And wouldn't an odd first digit be better suited to replace US 58, considering that only one end of it is at US 60?

Personally though I would prefer they not be switched. Everyone around here already knows of them by those numbers.
Ask US 44 or US 46 how close a highway needs to be to the grid.  Answer: off by one route isn't so bad.  US highway spurs do not obey Interstate numbering for digits - there are almost no loops out there, so they're just numbered consecutively.  (Check out 202)  Finally, yes, 58 and certainly 460 are well ingrained in people's knowledge.  Switching routes was a lot more common for the first 30-40 years of the highway system, for good reason.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 11, 2010, 12:24:21 PM
Just because other numbers fall outside the grid doesn't mean they should. I guess numbers making sense is just my personal preference though.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: TheStranger on September 11, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 11, 2010, 12:24:21 PM
Just because other numbers fall outside the grid doesn't mean they should. I guess numbers making sense is just my personal preference though.

I think the only US route numbers that were truly strongly linked to a grid are the x0 and x1 routes - and even then, that can be debatable (i.e. US 11 in particular).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: hbelkins on September 11, 2010, 05:21:22 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 10, 2010, 07:07:31 PM
Would the number fit though? i.e., does 460 cross 60? And wouldn't an odd first digit be better suited to replace US 58, considering that only one end of it is at US 60?

Personally though I would prefer they not be switched. Everyone around here already knows of them by those numbers.

460's western terminus is at 60 in Frankfort, KY. They cross (actually have a one-block wrong-way concurrency) in Mt. Sterling, KY. 460's eastern terminus is at 60 in Norfolk, VA.

58's eastern terminus is at 60 in Virginia Beach.

What really needs to be flip-flopped is US 460 and KY 114.

Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on September 11, 2010, 09:45:13 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2010, 05:21:22 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on September 10, 2010, 07:07:31 PM
Would the number fit though? i.e., does 460 cross 60? And wouldn't an odd first digit be better suited to replace US 58, considering that only one end of it is at US 60?

Personally though I would prefer they not be switched. Everyone around here already knows of them by those numbers.

460's western terminus is at 60 in Frankfort, KY. They cross (actually have a one-block wrong-way concurrency) in Mt. Sterling, KY. 460's eastern terminus is at 60 in Norfolk, VA.

58's eastern terminus is at 60 in Virginia Beach.

Exactly, so the current number works.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: TheStranger on September 11, 2010, 09:48:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 11, 2010, 05:21:22 PM
What really needs to be flip-flopped is US 460 and KY 114.



I wonder why KYTC hasn't applyed for putting 460 on the 114 corridor, instead of retaining the existing indirect routing...

The similar example I can think of is US 395 near Susanville, CA (where the county road A3 is more direct), but I think that has been intentionally retained to serve the larger community in that area.

Fixed quote, and while I was at it, fixed KYTC reference.

Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Takumi on February 05, 2012, 06:48:15 PM
Front page article on the new US 460 in today's Progress-Index.

http://www.progress-index.com/news/study-highlights-economic-benefits-of-new-u-s-460-but-some-remain-skeptical-1.1267516
Title: Re: Virginia
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 30, 2012, 09:55:57 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Virginia DOT restarting US460 toll project with $500m and not-for-profit to carry risk - private sector only to design-build (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5958)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Takumi on October 17, 2012, 03:15:30 PM
(Raising this thread from the dead...)

The new 460's construction start date and toll rate have been revealed.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2012/oct/16/3/us-460-toll-project-to-begin-in-2014-ar-2287308/
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2012, 04:01:49 PM
This just in from the broken record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record#Vinyl) department (I suppose I am dating myself with that phrase) in the Richmond Times-Dispatch article (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2012/oct/16/3/us-460-toll-project-to-begin-in-2014-ar-2287308/) posted by Takumi above (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=449.msg179810#msg179810):

Quote"This project is an enormous waste of taxpayer dollars that will cause significant environmental damage," said Trip Pollard with the Southern Environmental Law Center. "It is a boondoggle that is nowhere near the most pressing transportation need for Virginia, or even Hampton Roads."

QuoteThe project will cost the state "over a billion dollars in cash and allow tolls to be imposed for decades to support speculative development," he said. "We should improve the existing 460 rather than build an unneeded new 55-mile highway."

QuoteDavid Dickson with the Sierra Club's Virginia Chapter said, "We continue to oppose this environmentally destructive and unneeded project."

Quote"The commonwealth's transportation dollars could be much better spent improving safety on the existing Route 460," Dickson said, "and providing for the real transportation needs of Hampton Roads, including moving forward with the Patriots Crossing (tunnel and bridge system between Interstate 564 in Norfolk and the Monitor-Merrimac Memorial Bridge-Tunnel) and expanding high capacity transit."
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 17, 2012, 09:28:00 PM
My history teacher said in high school that he would be in a wheelchair by the time this was built.  I guess at this point he was wrong.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on October 17, 2012, 09:47:12 PM
I would have happily paid that toll rate when I lived in Newport News: 20 YEARS AGO
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on October 17, 2012, 09:49:22 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 17, 2012, 03:15:30 PM
The new 460's construction start date and toll rate have been revealed.
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2012/oct/16/3/us-460-toll-project-to-begin-in-2014-ar-2287308/

Construction from 2014 to 2018, auto toll of about $3.80 for 55 miles, Interstate-standard highway, travel time Richmond-Norfolk almost the same as I-64 in free-flowing traffic.  Sounds excellent!

After the new highway opens, the existing highway will remain and be toll-free.  I wonder if there might be a ban on through trucks?  Or maybe the existing highway could be re-marked for two lanes on the rural sections, so rather than a substandard 42-foot-wide 4-lane undivided highway with narrow shoulders, the highway could be a 2-lane highway with modern cross-section, two 12-foot lanes and two 9-foot paved shoulders.


Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 17, 2012, 11:03:14 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on October 17, 2012, 09:28:00 PM
My history teacher said in high school that he would be in a wheelchair by the time this was built.  I guess at this point he was wrong.

There have been plenty of folks in the D.C. area (where anti-highway and anti-auto agitprop is almost a cottage industry) that claimed that a new Wilson Bridge would never be built and that not one centimeter of the InterCounty Connector (except I-370) would ever be constructed).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Takumi on October 17, 2012, 11:18:07 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 17, 2012, 09:49:22 PM
After the new highway opens, the existing highway will remain and be toll-free.  I wonder if there might be a ban on through trucks?
I'm not sure how a 60-mile truck ban could be enforced accurately.

I'm interested in what the extant highway's new number will be. Would it combine with the Suffolk and Petersburg US 460 Businesses to become one extremely long business route, possibly the longest in the country, or would it be more likely to drop to a state route?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:20:27 AM
Based on Virginia precedent I would assume Business 460, but due to the length and the fact that they're actually pointing out the fact that the old free road will remain, I speculate that they might choose Alternate 460 instead.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 18, 2012, 01:07:23 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:20:27 AM
Based on Virginia precedent I would assume Business 460, but due to the length and the fact that they're actually pointing out the fact that the old free road will remain, I speculate that they might choose Alternate 460 instead.

It isn't normal VDOT practice to do so, but could 460 be "demoted" to the secondary system?  And I realize that in the case of U.S. highways, there is supposed to be a "free" alternate to a tolled U.S. route.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: hbelkins on October 18, 2012, 12:18:22 PM
US 17-1!
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on October 18, 2012, 12:23:03 PM
Interstate I-62 for the new highway. 

Or perhaps an extension of I-264.

Existing highway stays US-460.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 18, 2012, 01:07:23 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:20:27 AM
Based on Virginia precedent I would assume Business 460, but due to the length and the fact that they're actually pointing out the fact that the old free road will remain, I speculate that they might choose Alternate 460 instead.

It isn't normal VDOT practice to do so, but could 460 be "demoted" to the secondary system?  And I realize that in the case of U.S. highways, there is supposed to be a "free" alternate to a tolled U.S. route.

Why do you think they would want to demote it to a secondary? Such a major road I would think should stay at least a primary, if not bannered US route.

Though the secondary system does seem to be a bit of a catch-all, considering it ranges from dirt roads to (formerly) freeways.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on October 18, 2012, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: Takumi on October 17, 2012, 11:18:07 PM
Quote from: Beltway on October 17, 2012, 09:49:22 PM
After the new highway opens, the existing highway will remain and be toll-free.  I wonder if there might be a ban on through trucks?
I'm not sure how a 60-mile truck ban could be enforced accurately.

What abou my idea of re-marking the rural sections to a modern 2-lane cross-section?  Maybe that would serve to discourage through traffic.  I wonder how well that proposal would be received by the public.  I would think that a modern 2 lanes would be fully adequate for the traffic in the rural sections.  The town sections could remain 4 lanes.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: amroad17 on October 18, 2012, 09:38:39 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:20:27 AM
Based on Virginia precedent I would assume Business 460, but due to the length and the fact that they're actually pointing out the fact that the old free road will remain, I speculate that they might choose Alternate 460 instead.
Pennsylvania has used Business 220 when US 220/I-99 was built and that was a 57 mile "business' route (assuming no interruptions along the old route).  I prefer ALT US 460, much like OK does with US 412/ALT US 412 along the Cherokee Turnpike.  Of course, Virginia should decommission the existing ALT US 460 that runs from Bowers Hill in Chesapeake to downtown Norfolk as it serves no real purpose.

As I stated in another thread, US 460 should be routed along I-264 from Bowers Hill to either the St. Paul's exit or the Tidewater Drive exit and rid itself of the winding course it takes through Chesapeake and Norfolk.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 19, 2012, 07:37:03 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 18, 2012, 01:07:23 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:20:27 AM
Based on Virginia precedent I would assume Business 460, but due to the length and the fact that they're actually pointing out the fact that the old free road will remain, I speculate that they might choose Alternate 460 instead.

It isn't normal VDOT practice to do so, but could 460 be "demoted" to the secondary system?  And I realize that in the case of U.S. highways, there is supposed to be a "free" alternate to a tolled U.S. route.

Why do you think they would want to demote it to a secondary? Such a major road I would think should stay at least a primary, if not bannered US route.

I think it has to remain a bannered route under AASHTO rules.  But demoting it to a secondary highway (again, not likely to happen) might encourage more motorists to use the new toll road.

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 18, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
Though the secondary system does seem to be a bit of a catch-all, considering it ranges from dirt roads to (formerly) freeways.

Certainly Northern Virginia, until very recently, had several expressway-class roads that were in the secondary system "from birth."
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 19, 2012, 07:38:54 AM
TOLLROADSnews: Virginia resurrects 63-20 not-for-profit to take risk on US460, Ferrovial to do design/build (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6239)

QuoteThe McDonnell administration in Virginia has resurrected the 63-20 tax exempt not-for-profit financing vehicle for the $1.4 billion 55 mile US460 tollroad between Petersburg and the Norfolk Hampton Roads area. A Ferrovial-led group has been chosen to do design-build work.

QuoteThe state of Virginia is providing most of the funds, although they are working on getting the Feds in also via TIFIA loans. (see chart titled Funding Source nearby)
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alex on November 02, 2012, 12:25:17 PM
Officials willing to redesign U.S. 460 toll project (http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2012/oct/25/tdmet05-officials-willing-to-redesign-us-460-toll-ar-2309701/)

QuoteVirginia transportation officials say changes to the design of the U.S. 460 toll road are "probable" in Prince George County, which has conditioned its support for the project on a new alignment of the proposed expressway's western terminus.

Program manager Morteza Farajian told representatives of local governments from the Tri-Cities region that work will not begin for two years on the ends of the $1.4 billion private-public highway project to allow time to change the design in both Prince George and Suffolk.


Quote
State officials also assured local and regional officials, including a representative of Dinwiddie County, that they consider construction of a road to directly connect the new toll road with Interstate 85 and U.S. 460 west of Petersburg a vital project if money can be found to pay for it.

QuoteBut the project has run into opposition in Prince George because of its potential effect on homes and businesses around New Bohemia, a crossroads community where the toll road currently is designed to rejoin the existing highway east of Interstate 295.

QuoteAshcraft informed Transportation Secretary Sean T. Connaughton this week that Prince George would support the 460 project only if the state changes the proposed realignment, preferably to connect the toll road directly with I-295 or Interstate 95 south of Petersburg.

"In our opinion, the proposed Route 460 design of the western terminus is not the most economical juncture, unnecessarily disruptive, and not efficient for the future I-85 connector," Ashcraft told Connaughton in a letter on Tuesday.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Takumi on November 12, 2012, 03:14:40 PM
VDOT is holding an information meeting on the project Wednesday night at Surry High School.
http://www.progress-index.com/news/vdot-holds-information-meeting-on-route-460-1.1401982
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 08, 2012, 01:30:08 PM
This project became a waste when it became necessary for VDOT to pump at least $736 million (assuming their TIFIA loan goes through) into the project.  That's a level of funding that easily would have paid for smaller, more cost-effective projects along existing 460, AND a few needed interchanges along 58, AND widening the worst bottleneck on 64 on the Peninsula (near Fort Eustis), AND contribute further to the Midtown Tunnel project, reducing the future tolls there.

Plus, contrary to what some of the CTB presentations suggest, this 460 project will still not eliminate the need for widening the HRBT.  Not by a longshot.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on December 08, 2012, 05:26:07 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2012, 01:30:08 PM
This project became a waste when it became necessary for VDOT to pump at least $736 million (assuming their TIFIA loan goes through) into the project.  That's a level of funding that easily would have paid for smaller, more cost-effective projects along existing 460, AND a few needed interchanges along 58, AND widening the worst bottleneck on 64 on the Peninsula (near Fort Eustis), AND contribute further to the Midtown Tunnel project, reducing the future tolls there.

Those projects would cost far more than $736 million.  That sum wouldn't be enough to upgrade this 49 miles of US-460 to a modern 4-lane roadway (i.e. no bypasses, just upgrade of existing roadway).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 08, 2012, 05:40:56 PM
You don't need a full upgrade to the existing 460 roadway.  Paved shoulders and some left turn lanes at key intersections are all that's really needed along that route.  For the traffic volume that's expected even on the proposed toll road, you'd get far more bang for the buck spending that money on the projects I suggested, plus you'd be benefiting far more than just one travelshed.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on December 08, 2012, 08:57:46 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2012, 05:40:56 PM
You don't need a full upgrade to the existing 460 roadway.  Paved shoulders and some left turn lanes at key intersections are all that's really needed along that route.  For the traffic volume that's expected even on the proposed toll road, you'd get far more bang for the buck spending that money on the projects I suggested, plus you'd be benefiting far more than just one travelshed.

That US-460 segment is on the NHS and the STRAHNET, so its current form with 10.5 foot lanes, shoulders generally too narrow to stop on, undivided roadway along about 80% of that length, is quite obsolete.  Minimum required design: 12-foot lanes, 10-foot shoulders, divisor at minimum a fifth 12-foot lane, grade raised in flood-prone areas.  That would cost more than $736 million.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 09, 2012, 08:21:43 AM
QuoteThat US-460 segment is on the NHS and the STRAHNET,

So are US 58 and I-64...with higher traffic volumes than US 460 (especially I-64).  Yet the state government seems to have it up their tail that they have to pour a huge amount of money into US 460 when that money could be spread around and benefit *MULTIPLE ROUTES* instead of just one.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 09, 2012, 12:13:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 09, 2012, 08:21:43 AM
So are US 58 and I-64...with higher traffic volumes than US 460 (especially I-64).  Yet the state government seems to have it up their tail that they have to pour a huge amount of money into US 460 when that money could be spread around and benefit *MULTIPLE ROUTES* instead of just one.

The way this reads and the fact that this got fast tracked all of a sudden, I wouldn't be surprised if somebody is getting paid off big time behind the scenes. Its politics as usual, eventually it will come out whose palms are being greased for this project. The state is broke going by the other posts in this forum, why would they sink this much money into a toll road? Shouldn't they be funded entirely free of tax dollars?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Beltway on December 09, 2012, 04:07:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 09, 2012, 08:21:43 AM
QuoteThat US-460 segment is on the NHS and the STRAHNET,

So are US 58 and I-64...with higher traffic volumes than US 460 (especially I-64).  Yet the state government seems to have it up their tail that they have to pour a huge amount of money into US 460 when that money could be spread around and benefit *MULTIPLE ROUTES* instead of just one.

So you snipped the cites of the serious deficiences on that section of US-460, that were problematic by rural intra-state highway standards even 30 years ago.  Also, if the rebuild option is selected, it can be built in stages; all the money does not need to be spent at once.

I-64 is an Interstate highway, obviously built to Interstate standards.  Its 4-lane section between Richmond and Newport News, is in planning studies for widening, nowhere near ready for construction funding, years away.

US-58 is not on the STRAHNET west of Suffolk, and is built to much higher standards than the section of US-460 being discussed.  The only serious need between Suffolk and I-95 is to extend the Suffolk Bypass about 3 miles west.

Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 15, 2012, 08:10:37 PM
Washington Post: Controversy surrounds Va. plan to build $1.4 billion toll road (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/controversy-surrounds-va-plan-to-build-14billion-toll-road/2012/12/15/60321c72-43ad-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html)

QuoteVirginia, a state so strapped for road funds that it dips into the new-construction kitty to patch potholes, is about to bankroll a $1.4 billion highway.

QuoteThat should be welcome news for Virginia commuters, who endure some of the worst traffic in the nation. But the project has met with blunt criticism because the four-lane highway is planned for a lightly traveled corridor.

QuoteIt would run for 55miles in southeastern Virginia between Petersburg and Suffolk, parallel to U.S. 460, a four-lane road along which average volume ranges from 9,200 to 17,000 vehicles a day. The state estimates that the new highway, a toll road that would not replace the existing toll-free route, would initially carry 5,000 to 6,000 cars and trucks a day.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 18, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
That the former chair of the port authority is saying it's not a good use of port funds is significant.  That projections will barely be over 20,000 adt in 2035 is significant.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 18, 2012, 11:42:50 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
That the former chair of the port authority is saying it's not a good use of port funds is significant. 

In the past, I have not heard of port authority funds have been used to make improvements to the public highway  network in and around Hampton Roads.

Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2012, 06:55:56 AM
That projections will barely be over 20,000 adt in 2035 is significant.

Agreed.  I assume that prospective bondholders will pay attention to that, and possibly a demand higher interest rate?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 18, 2012, 03:51:17 PM
As I understand it, the bonds being floated are rated BBB...not that much above junk status.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 18, 2012, 04:19:51 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 18, 2012, 03:51:17 PM
As I understand it, the bonds being floated are rated BBB...not that much above junk status.

hooray for grade inflation.  what is a D class bond?  "investor will immediately be broiled with a flamethrower"?  I hesitate to think of what would earn an F.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 20, 2012, 07:49:36 PM
Washington Post: Virginia signs $1.4 billion highway deal (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/virginia-signs-14-billion-highway-deal/2012/12/20/bec3fdce-4ad2-11e2-9a42-d1ce6d0ed278_story.html)

QuoteState officials announced Thursday that they had signed a $1.4 billion deal to build a highway in southeastern Virginia, prompting criticism from those who say the state's scarce transportation resources should be spent in more heavily traveled corridors.

QuoteGov. Robert F. McDonnell (R) has pushed for the road since he represented the region as a state delegate.

Quote"As recognized by local officials and the General Assembly years ago, there is a clear and critical need for the new U.S. 460,"  McDonnell said in a statement announcing that the state had signed a contract with US 460 Mobility Partners, a partnership of Ferrovial Agroman and American Infrastructure.

QuoteThe highway will extend for 55 miles between Petersburg and Suffolk, running parallel to U.S. 460, a four-lane road along which average volumes range from 9,200 to 17,000 vehicles a day. The state estimates that the new highway, a toll road that will not replace the existing toll-free route, will initially carry 5,000 to 6,000 cars and trucks a day.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 26, 2012, 09:13:42 PM
WTOP Radio: Congressional reps. speak out against Route 460 in Va. (http://www.wtop.com/120/3172007/Congressmen-speak-out-against-Va-road)

QuoteU.S. congressional representatives from Virginia are speaking out against Route 460, the new road approved by the state.

QuoteThe Panama Canal is being expanded to handle more and bigger ships by 2015, prompting Virginia to approve the road.

QuoteRoute 460 is a $1.4 billion, 55-mile highway between Petersburg and Suffolk. Its purpose is to help vehicular traffic in and out of the Port of Virginia, which is also being expanded to handle the new ships.

QuoteDemocratic Virginia Reps. Bobby Scott, Jim Moran and Gerry Connolly say the money would be better spent on fixing and expanding the overcrowded roads in northern Virginia.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 31, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
I removed anything related to NE2's joke.  I apologize for not noticing this statement earlier as it was slightly buried in an otherwise informative post.

-Mark
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alps on December 31, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 31, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
I removed anything related to NE2's joke.  I apologize for not noticing this statement earlier as it was slightly buried in an otherwise informative post.

-Mark
I never knew your name was Mark.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 31, 2012, 07:14:58 PM
Yeah I think that is a result of myself not posting anywhere near as much as I used to for various reasons and for never making it to a road meet, but I am still kind of shocked you did not know my name.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: codyg1985 on December 31, 2012, 09:25:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 15, 2012, 08:10:37 PM
Washington Post: Controversy surrounds Va. plan to build $1.4 billion toll road (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/va-politics/controversy-surrounds-va-plan-to-build-14billion-toll-road/2012/12/15/60321c72-43ad-11e2-8e70-e1993528222d_story.html)

QuoteIt would run for 55miles in southeastern Virginia between Petersburg and Suffolk, parallel to U.S. 460, a four-lane road along which average volume ranges from 9,200 to 17,000 vehicles a day. The state estimates that the new highway, a toll road that would not replace the existing toll-free route, would initially carry 5,000 to 6,000 cars and trucks a day.

It only carries 17,000 vehicles per day now? Even if a large percentage of those are trucks, borrowing a big ton of money with just-above junk status bonds to replace a road that currently sees less than 20,000 AADT seems a bit fishy to me. Maybe it would be justified from a regional connectivity perspective, but I-64 seems to already do that job.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 31, 2012, 09:51:31 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on December 31, 2012, 09:25:28 PM
It only carries 17,000 vehicles per day now? Even if a large percentage of those are trucks, borrowing a big ton of money with just-above junk status bonds to replace a road that currently sees less than 20,000 AADT seems a bit fishy to me.

Kind of makes you wonder how much money the governor and his cronies will see from this project. Do any of the local rags do something that resembles investigative journalism? This project is ripe for it.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 3467 on December 31, 2012, 10:33:47 PM
Does the state of VA have to back this bond? Illinois tollway studied some low volume toll roads but none have ever been feasible. My guess is even if the trucks are forced off the cars will stay on the old road. It is still 4 lanes.
I would make it 3 lanes with a center turn lane in the small towns it goes through
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on January 01, 2013, 10:22:31 AM
If the military wants the road, they should pull the troops out of pointless wars and build it themselves.

Gratuitous statement removed, left meat of opinion
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 3467 on January 01, 2013, 10:36:53 AM
Does the military want the road or is that just something its supporters are using?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on January 01, 2013, 11:42:48 AM
Quote from: 3467 on January 01, 2013, 10:36:53 AM
Does the military want the road or is that just something its supporters are using?
Probably the latter (Beltway: "That US-460 segment is on the NHS and the STRAHNET"). My understanding is that US 460 was added to STRAHNET to give an alternate route in case the tunnels are bombed. But if that happens they can simply ban normal citizens from US 460.

PS: Beltway is wrong about US 58 west of Suffolk not being on STRAHNET.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on January 01, 2013, 06:22:07 PM
The military (Navy in particular) has had some interest in the road in a general sense, but not a lot.  The big push for a new 460 has come from the Port of Virginia.  That they're even contributing $250 million to the project is of some interest since I don't recall them doing anything similar at least over the past decade.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 01, 2013, 07:37:52 PM
Quote from: froggie on January 01, 2013, 06:22:07 PM
The military (Navy in particular) has had some interest in the road in a general sense, but not a lot.

For as large as the various U.S. Navy activities are in and near Hampton Roads, I still believe they are relatively small when compared to the various commercial port activities nearby.

Quote from: froggie on January 01, 2013, 06:22:07 PM
The big push for a new 460 has come from the Port of Virginia.  That they're even contributing $250 million to the project is of some interest since I don't recall them doing anything similar at least over the past decade.

That makes a lot of sense. 

Highway access to intermodal facilities, be they seaports, river ports, pipeline terminals, railroad terminals or even airports are very important to their economic success.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 31, 2013, 12:02:26 PM
Washington Post op-ed: Bob McDonnell's "Road for Nobody"  near Hampton Roads insults Northern Virginia (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/bob-mcdonnells-road-for-nobody-near-hampton-roads-insults-northern-virginia/2013/01/30/367ae798-6b16-11e2-ada3-d86a4806d5ee_story.html)

QuoteA few years ago, Alaska's proposed "Bridge to Nowhere"  became a national symbol of wasteful government spending on little-needed projects.

QuoteNow Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) has pushed through his own version of this embarrassment, a $1.4 billion highway outside Hampton Roads that qualifies as a "Road for Nobody."
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on February 02, 2013, 08:24:26 AM
An argument I've been using elsewhere on this project recently (including on that latest Post article):  a new 460 doesn't do drivers (including and especially the trucks) any good if they can't get to it.  Getting over there from all but the newest APM terminal (i.e. pretty much all of Norfolk) still involves crossing the Elizabeth River.  Even with the Midtown expansion that has just started, the tunnels and High Rise Bridge will still be hopelessly jammed many hours of the day.  VDOT would have done much better putting that money towards improvements closer into Hampton Roads.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 02, 2013, 09:03:31 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 02, 2013, 08:24:26 AM
An argument I've been using elsewhere on this project recently (including on that latest Post article):  a new 460 doesn't do drivers (including and especially the trucks) any good if they can't get to it.

Excellent point.  I had not carefully considered the east end of this project until I read your comment above.  It looks like the improved (toll) 460 begins/ends at the partial "beltway" around the "downtown" area of Suffolk. And beyond your (valid) comment above, U.S. 13/U.S. 58/U.S. 460 between the east end of the "beltway and the I-664/I-64 interchange is only an arterial or maybe an urban expressway (with intersections at-grade).  A distinctive feature of this section of highway  is the overhead walkway linking the eastbound side of the weigh/inspection station with the scalehouse building on the westbound side (usually, those connections are done with a pedestrian tunnel - I have not seen a structure like this anywhere else in Virginia).

Quote from: froggie on February 02, 2013, 08:24:26 AM
Getting over there from all but the newest APM terminal (i.e. pretty much all of Norfolk) still involves crossing the Elizabeth River.  Even with the Midtown expansion that has just started, the tunnels and High Rise Bridge will still be hopelessly jammed many hours of the day.  VDOT would have done much better putting that money towards improvements closer into Hampton Roads.

I suppose the theory is that those improvements in Hampton Roads will all be PPTA projects, and VDOT will not have to spend transportation trust fund money on them.  That might just qualify as "wishful thinking" or "faith-based transportation planning."
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on February 03, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
It does.  Some years back, VDOT received two unsolicited proposals through PPTA to build the full 3rd Crossing project (Patriot's Crossing, widening all of 664 including MMBT, and the Craney Island Connector).  VDOT didn't act at the time in part because the proposals still required them to put down about $1B (give or take a few hundred million) in state funding.  The financial situation has only gotten worse since then, so the chances of getting these projects build WITHOUT spending TTF money have already been shown to be ZERO.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 03, 2013, 10:08:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 03, 2013, 07:31:18 PM
It does.  Some years back, VDOT received two unsolicited proposals through PPTA to build the full 3rd Crossing project (Patriot's Crossing, widening all of 664 including MMBT, and the Craney Island Connector).  VDOT didn't act at the time in part because the proposals still required them to put down about $1B (give or take a few hundred million) in state funding.  The financial situation has only gotten worse since then, so the chances of getting these projects build WITHOUT spending TTF money have already been shown to be ZERO.

Yeah, I remember this collection of projects now. 

Especially the Patriot's Crossing project.  From the maps, this looks like a very expensive undertaking, including the middle-of-the-water interchange.

If memory serves, and if this gets constructed, this would result in tolls on all of the Hampton Roads crossings.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on October 30, 2013, 06:35:14 PM
Virginia Pilot article (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/10/threat-wetlands-could-be-threat-new-us-460) from today about an updated estimate for amount of wetlands the US 460 project will take out, and how it could jeopardize the project.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 05, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
According to today's Virginia Pilot (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/12/mcauliffe-wants-put-brakes-us-460-project), the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2013, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
According to today's Virginia Pilot (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/12/mcauliffe-wants-put-brakes-us-460-project), the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.


The following sentence from that article strikes me as eminently sensible regardless of one's political viewpoint or one's viewpoint about this particular project's merits:

QuoteMcAuliffe said he doesn't think the state should spend taxpayer dollars on the project until it's "100 percent sure" that the federal permit will be issued.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: hbelkins on December 05, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 05, 2013, 12:52:30 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
According to today's Virginia Pilot (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/12/mcauliffe-wants-put-brakes-us-460-project), the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.


The following sentence from that article strikes me as eminently sensible regardless of one's political viewpoint or one's viewpoint about this particular project's merits:

QuoteMcAuliffe said he doesn't think the state should spend taxpayer dollars on the project until it's "100 percent sure" that the federal permit will be issued.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 1995hoo on December 05, 2013, 04:25:58 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 05, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

That's a fair point. I have no idea. Takumi or froggie might know.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NJRoadfan on December 05, 2013, 04:29:54 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
According to today's Virginia Pilot (http://hamptonroads.com/2013/12/mcauliffe-wants-put-brakes-us-460-project), the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.


See my post above from a few months ago. This isn't all that surprising.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
QuoteAre they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not 100% the situation with US 460.  My previous post related to an article about the large number of wetlands that would be destroyed with the project...a number that was a lot higher than previously estimated and did not please the Corps of Engineers at all.  There may be some cost incurred with pulling the plug, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as, say, if construction had already begun (the case with Cincinnati).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 05, 2013, 05:29:09 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
QuoteAre they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not 100% the situation with US 460.  My previous post related to an article about the large number of wetlands that would be destroyed with the project...a number that was a lot higher than previously estimated and did not please the Corps of Engineers at all.  There may be some cost incurred with pulling the plug, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as, say, if construction had already begun (the case with Cincinnati).

Wonder if there will be push-back by supporters of the project in the Virginia General Assembly?

Though anybody that knows anything about transportation infrastructure should know that Waters of the United States (definitely including wetlands) need to avoided if at all possible.

It seems that the people doing the planning for a tolled U.S. 460 may have forgotten that.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Alps on December 05, 2013, 06:38:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on December 05, 2013, 01:37:44 PM
Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.
A federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: hbelkins on December 05, 2013, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not following that story, even though it's happening within about 3 hours of me. I heard a brief mention of it today on a Cincy radio station but wasn't paying attention to details.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 06, 2013, 08:52:34 AM
QuoteA federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.

A planned road is useless if you can't get the Federal permit.  And there are strong indications that the Corps of Engineers would deny the wetlands permit due to the revised quantity of wetlands affected.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 1995hoo on December 06, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on December 06, 2013, 09:08:29 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?
The fox.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2013, 09:10:24 AM
Quote from: Steve on December 05, 2013, 06:38:47 PM
A federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.

In this case, it seems they don't even have the federal permit(s). I presume at least they will need a Section 404 Clean Water Act permit.  Probably several others.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/Themes/Button_Copy/images/buttons/mutcd_merge.png)Post Merge: December 06, 2013, 04:20:59 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 06, 2013, 09:03:05 AM
So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?

Maybe a raspberry?
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
TOLLROADSnews: New Virginia Governor says will "take a hard look"  at US460 project (http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/6864)

QuoteThe IRS 63-20 not-for-profit model employed by the McDonnell administration has a terrible track record, making defense of the project difficult.

QuoteLogically tolls should be going on I-64 where the heavy traffic is and which needs 3rd laning not in the US460 corridor where traffic is rather light.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: DeaconG on December 06, 2013, 09:13:37 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.

Just Googled it.

Oh. My. God.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Duke87 on December 06, 2013, 09:18:19 PM
Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the area this project is in.

But from reading a bit and looking at a map, two things strike me:

1) if the corridor sees only 20,000 AADT, can a toll road really generate enough revenue to pay for itself? Does the existing four lane road not handle that traffic effectively?

2) it duplicates I-64 in the sense that it heads from the Hampton Roads area on a northwesterly trajectory. Meanwhile, there is no freeway on a southwesterly trajectory from the area. Seems to me a freeway that headed towards Rocky Mount might be more worthwhile since it would serve a market not already served by an interstate. But then that would mean getting NC involved.

Title: Re: US 460
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on December 06, 2013, 09:23:53 PM
The existing US 460 is a 4 lane facility with just a double center line.  When I lived there, there were few left turn lanes and alot of head on collisions, plus IIRC, the lanes are only 10 or 11 feet wide.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on December 06, 2013, 09:26:58 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on December 06, 2013, 09:18:19 PM
2) it duplicates I-64 in the sense that it heads from the Hampton Roads area on a northwesterly trajectory. Meanwhile, there is no freeway on a southwesterly trajectory from the area. Seems to me a freeway that headed towards Rocky Mount might be more worthwhile since it would serve a market not already served by an interstate. But then that would mean getting NC involved.
Or upgrading US 58 (which is probably fine as-is). Going into NC doesn't cut much distance from the south and may increase the distance from the west on I-40/I-85.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Bitmapped on December 07, 2013, 10:18:44 AM
Quote from: ARMOURERERIC on December 06, 2013, 09:23:53 PM
The existing US 460 is a 4 lane facility with just a double center line.  When I lived there, there were few left turn lanes and alot of head on collisions, plus IIRC, the lanes are only 10 or 11 feet wide.

You could presumably widen the road a couple feet and build some turn lanes for a lot less than the new alignment will cost.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on December 07, 2013, 01:17:43 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on December 07, 2013, 10:18:44 AM
You could presumably widen the road a couple feet and build some turn lanes for a lot less than the new alignment will cost.
But then you can't privatize it. And letting corporations make even more money off us is the wave of the future!
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Duke87 on December 07, 2013, 11:40:02 PM
If it's about safety rather than capacity, then yeah, widening the existing road a bit to add turn lanes where needed and a median barrier seems like a better use of resources.

I don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
QuoteI don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.

It DOES have a lot of influence in Virginia, which has pushed the concept of Public-Private Partnerships to the breaking point.  And since it's the private sector that Virginia hopes to utilize to pay for roads (see the I-95 and Beltway HOT lanes for recent examples)...

But to answer your earlier question, this US 460 toll project doesn't even come close to covering its cost via tolls.  VDOT is STILL expected to cover over half the cost of the project (http://www.commconnector.com/questions/) (a minimum of $753M for a ~$1.4B project).

SPUI hints at this, but it would be more effective upgrading US 58 west of Suffolk than upgrading US 17 to the south.  Much more direct connection to both I-95 and I-85 for points southwest.  Some of it's already freeway, and aside from Suffolk, it flows pretty well already.  All that's really needed are spot improvements here and there.

Also hinted at...the existing US 460 is effectively a 4-lane UNdivided road.  Center turn lanes have been put in at the more major intersections, but most intersections along the corridor lack a left turn lane.  It also lacks shoulders.  Though well within capacity for the traffic volumes, there are notable safety issues.  Would have been far more cost effective to use that $750+M VDOT is paying for the toll project for improvements to the existing road, but that isn't "flashy" for the politicians nor can you get a private company to buy in with a funding pittance and then collect tolls.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: cpzilliacus on December 08, 2013, 10:50:52 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
QuoteI don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.

It DOES have a lot of influence in Virginia, which has pushed the concept of Public-Private Partnerships to the breaking point.  And since it's the private sector that Virginia hopes to utilize to pay for roads (see the I-95 and Beltway HOT lanes for recent examples)...

Virginia's PPTA was enacted during the administration of George Felix Allen.  I will not say more about him or his politics.

I agree that there are many in the Commonwealth that think the private sector will pay for (new) road capacity, but the financial track record of those projects is not good.  Is there even one winner among them?

At some point, I think it reasonable to assume that would be purchasers of such bonds are going to take a pass.

Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
But to answer your earlier question, this US 460 toll project doesn't even come close to covering its cost via tolls.  VDOT is STILL expected to cover over half the cost of the project (http://www.commconnector.com/questions/) (a minimum of $753M for a ~$1.4B project).

This is correct.  More to the point, it appears that the Commonwealth is bearing the risk (perhaps as a result of financial disasters like the Pocahontas Parkway).

Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
SPUI hints at this, but it would be more effective upgrading US 58 west of Suffolk than upgrading US 17 to the south.  Much more direct connection to both I-95 and I-85 for points southwest.  Some of it's already freeway, and aside from Suffolk, it flows pretty well already.  All that's really needed are spot improvements here and there.

I have had SPUI blocked for many months, but I must admit that I agree that upgrading U.S. 58 to a full freeway (certainly as far west as Emporia (I-95), maybe to South Hill (I-85)) makes a lot more sense, especially if combined with a widening of I-64.

Wonder if anyone in McDonnell's office ever bothered to discuss these?

Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
Also hinted at...the existing US 460 is effectively a 4-lane UNdivided road.  Center turn lanes have been put in at the more major intersections, but most intersections along the corridor lack a left turn lane.  It also lacks shoulders.  Though well within capacity for the traffic volumes, there are notable safety issues.

I have only driven it once or twice, and the traffic was not especially heavy.  Reminded me a lot of long sections of U.S. 1 across Virginia and Maryland. 

Quote from: froggie on December 08, 2013, 08:38:50 AM
Would have been far more cost effective to use that $750+M VDOT is paying for the toll project for improvements to the existing road, but that isn't "flashy" for the politicians nor can you get a private company to buy in with a funding pittance and then collect tolls.

Do the people that live along U.S. 460 want a road upgraded like that?  Do they care?

I don't know the answer to that question.

As far as "flashy" projects (and ribboncuttings for same) goes, exactly the same statement can be made about passenger rail transit projects in many parts of the U.S., including Virginia.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: Laura on December 22, 2013, 12:07:13 PM
Quote from: DeaconG on December 06, 2013, 09:13:37 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 06, 2013, 12:10:16 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 05, 2013, 04:42:14 PM
Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.

Just Googled it.

Oh. My. God.

Google again for recent developments. It gets better.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: 1995hoo on January 15, 2014, 09:21:02 AM
WTOP reporting this morning the new administration is suspending the Route 460 project:

  http://wtop.com/120/3542133/State-official-says-Route-460-project-suspended
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: NE2 on January 15, 2014, 11:29:09 AM
Go Dems.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on January 15, 2014, 02:05:30 PM
Also noted down here via WAVY-10 (http://www.wavy.com/news/virginia/ap-virginia/state-official-says-route-460-project-suspended_56782384) and the Virginian Pilot (http://hamptonroads.com/2014/01/work-has-been-halted-new-us-460-official-says).
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on January 15, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
I hope that at least they keep some kind of improvement on the table.  FWIW, again this is 2 year old first hand insight, but there was a building boom in progress in the Smithfield, Suffolk and areas just north of US 17 on the South side of the James River Bridge.  Getting the vehicle trips generated by these areas bound for Richmond is still a a worhty goal.
Title: Re: US 460
Post by: froggie on January 15, 2014, 03:23:52 PM
That's the catch...those vehicle trips aren't going to Richmond...they're going to Hampton Roads.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on February 27, 2014, 02:31:24 PM
Note: Due to other US 460 threads on this forum, and the fact that this thread is mostly about the project that is currently not happening from Petersburg to Suffolk.  I have changed the name of this topic.

-Mark
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 07, 2014, 03:49:29 AM
Richmond Times-Dispatch opinion column: Road to nowhere (http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion/today-s-top-opinion-road-to-nowhere/article_349c331d-00ec-59b5-9023-ea9aaf011ac9.html)

QuoteThe more the U.S. 460 project gets scrutinized, the less appealing it grows.

QuoteThe 55-mile Petersburg-to-Suffolk road project, arranged through the state's public-private partnership law, has been beset by controversy for years. And now some suggest the nonprofit corporation behind the project might not have been as straight with bondholders as it could have been.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on April 07, 2014, 06:27:45 AM
An important nugget in that article is that Virginia has already spent $250 million which is a huge waste of $ on a project that had a real risk of being turned down for environmental reasons.  This amount could have gone towards the spot improvements that would improve the existing corridor.

Mapmikey
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on April 07, 2014, 07:11:07 AM
Don't tell Scott Kozel that...
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 07, 2014, 03:59:52 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on April 07, 2014, 06:27:45 AM
An important nugget in that article is that Virginia has already spent $250 million which is a huge waste of $ on a project that had a real risk of being turned down for environmental reasons.  This amount could have gone towards the spot improvements that would improve the existing corridor.

I am normally in favor of building new highways on new alignments if and when possible.  And usually it is possible (see ICC, see Dulles Greenway, see Fairfax County Parkway, see the relocated U.S. 17 that we looked at last month).

But - VDOT management should have involved the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. EPA in project planning for this road from the very start, and it appears to me that they did not do that, and this big waste of money is the result.  Money that the Commonwealth cannot afford to blow.  And $250 million is a lot of money.

Not sure if the $250 million could have been reprogrammed into spot improvements or not.  But it could probably have been better spent on something else.

Like it or not, and no matter how much chest-thumping goes on about "state's rights," nothing is getting built (especially in a waterlogged area like the eastern end of the corridor) without that Section 404 (of the Clean Water Act) permit from the Corps.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: ixnay on April 13, 2014, 12:04:55 PM
Per the official VDOT map, Norfolk Southern runs alongside 460 from Petersburg down to Windsor in Isle of Wight County, before 460 veers off to the left.  Is 460 a railfan's delight when it comes to getting good views of trains at speed (like Amtrak's daily Norfolk to NYC train)?

ixnay
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: oscar on April 13, 2014, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: ixnay on April 13, 2014, 12:04:55 PM
Per the official VDOT map, Norfolk Southern runs alongside 460 from Petersburg down to Windsor in Isle of Wight County, before 460 veers off to the left.  Is 460 a railfan's delight when it comes to getting good views of trains at speed (like Amtrak's daily Norfolk to NYC train)?

I've been on various parts of 460 between Petersburg and Windsor several times, and have never seen a train on the line alongside.  It doesn't seem to be a busy line, either for passenger service (only one train per day in each direction between Norfolk and Petersburg) or for freight.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Takumi on April 13, 2014, 12:51:34 PM
I usually see one or two trains going there and back.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 23, 2014, 10:22:34 PM
Bacon's Rebellion: Horse Gone, Search Ensues to Find Out Who Should Have Closed the Door (http://www.baconsrebellion.com/2014/04/horse-gone-close-door-anyway.html)

AP via WTOP Radio: Va. toll road could cost $500m, not be built (http://www.wtop.com/41/3609226/Va-toll-road-could-cost-500m-not-be-built)
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: skluth on April 25, 2014, 03:49:24 AM
Upgrading 460 never has made sense. I lived in Tidewater from 03-07 and used it occasionally when I had spare time and wanted to avoid traffic. Expanding I-64 to eight lanes to Williamsburg then six lanes up to Richmond would both be cheaper and more effective. US460 just doesn't do much. I-64, US-58, and US-17 handle most of the traffic going NW, W, and SW of Hampton Roads. I'm glad it looks like it won't be upgraded.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on April 25, 2014, 08:01:49 AM
Improving 460 makes sense....it has long been noted (especially from very shrill proponents of this 460 project) that the existing road is narrow and a bit dangerous, with no median, few left turn lanes, and lacking shoulders.  But the current proposal goes far above and beyond what's needed.

But that's what Virginia leaders at the time wanted.  In part because they could toll a new road much easier than the existing road, even though tolls don't even come close to paying for HALF of the project, let alone the full thing.  And it makes it easier for Virginia officials to use the PPTA to get the private sector to "chip in" and then claim victory that they're doing something about transportation, even though it still won't help the vast majority of Hampton Roads residents.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 25, 2014, 11:21:56 AM
Frankly, when I lived there VA 10 was more used than 460, but that was because of 460's bad rep
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 26, 2014, 03:18:11 PM
Bacon's Rebellion: Feet-to-the-Fire Time for Layne, Kilpatrick (http://www.baconsrebellion.com/2014/04/feet-to-the-fire-time-for-layne-kilpatrick.html)
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: skluth on May 04, 2014, 02:47:19 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 25, 2014, 08:01:49 AM
Improving 460 makes sense....it has long been noted (especially from very shrill proponents of this 460 project) that the existing road is narrow and a bit dangerous, with no median, few left turn lanes, and lacking shoulders.  But the current proposal goes far above and beyond what's needed.

But that's what Virginia leaders at the time wanted.  In part because they could toll a new road much easier than the existing road, even though tolls don't even come close to paying for HALF of the project, let alone the full thing.  And it makes it easier for Virginia officials to use the PPTA to get the private sector to "chip in" and then claim victory that they're doing something about transportation, even though it still won't help the vast majority of Hampton Roads residents.

You are correct that parts of 460 should be improved, especially the section from Suffolk to Windsor which should have a median and dedicated left turns for the entire stretch. But fixing that section and adding dedicated left turns at busy intersections is all that is needed west of Windsor. I agree it also could use shoulders, but Virginia has plenty of four lane roads without shoulders. It's not the greatest road, but it's really not that busy from Windsor to Petersburg.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: amroad17 on May 04, 2014, 07:08:13 PM
US 460 has some traffic between Suffolk and Petersburg, but building a freeway/toll road would more than likely kill off these smaller cities/towns.  That being said, US 460 does need some improvements in places.  The highway, as it currently is, is unsafe.  It has narrow lanes and hardly any "dedicated" left turns.  However, I would rather travel on US 460 from the Richmond/Petersburg area to Hampton Roads than travel on I-64.  Much less traffic.  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield. :nod:
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Thing 342 on May 06, 2014, 03:53:52 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on May 04, 2014, 07:08:13 PM
US 460 has some traffic between Suffolk and Petersburg, but building a freeway/toll road would more than likely kill off these smaller cities/towns.  That being said, US 460 does need some improvements in places.  The highway, as it currently is, is unsafe.  It has narrow lanes and hardly any "dedicated" left turns.  However, I would rather travel on US 460 from the Richmond/Petersburg area to Hampton Roads than travel on I-64.  Much less traffic.  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield. :nod:
Building anything with a speed limit higher than 35 will kill them off, or at least make the town governments completely insolvent.   
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on May 06, 2014, 04:11:02 PM
Not really.  Several of those towns (specifically Windsor, Wakefield, and Waverly) have industry or businesses that will prevent them from "dying off".
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: skluth on May 08, 2014, 01:03:04 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on May 04, 2014, 07:08:13 PM
  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield. :nod:

I miss the Virginia Diner.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 10, 2014, 03:23:31 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 06, 2014, 04:11:02 PM
Not really.  Several of those towns (specifically Windsor, Wakefield, and Waverly) have industry or businesses that will prevent them from "dying off".

Isn't the Shad Planking in Wakefield every Spring?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 15, 2014, 03:51:09 PM
Bacon's Rebellion: U.S. 460: Now We Know What Happened, We Just Don't Know Who Was Responsible (http://www.baconsrebellion.com/2014/05/u-s-460-now-we-know-what-happened-we-just-dont-know-who-was-responsible.html)

QuoteTransportation Secretary Aubrey Layne gave yesterday a detailed timeline of the events leading up to the suspension of work on the U.S. 460 Connector after the expenditure of nearly $300 million. "From a taxpayer standpoint, there is no good explanation for why we are here today,"  he told the Commonwealth Transportation Board at its May meeting.

QuoteI did not attend the meeting, so I provide no first-hand reporting, as I usually have on this issue. I rely here upon the reporting of  Cathy Grimes with the Daily News and a PowerPoint presentation bearing the name of Layne and Virginia Highway Commissioner Charlie Kilpatrick that is posted on the CTB website.

QuoteWithout naming specific names, Layne placed blame yesterday on "the executive branch"  of the McDonnell administration for pushing the project forward despite warnings from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that the proposed route for the 55-mile, Interstate-quality highway would impact roughly 500 acres of wetlands.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on June 17, 2014, 08:52:58 PM
http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2014/vdot_moving_forward_with73882.asp

VDOT announces it is moving forward on evaluating environmental impacts for 5 different alternatives for improving the US 460 corridor between Petersburg and Suffolk.  The FWHA and Army Corps of Engineers will be working with VDOT.  Reports are supposed to be available to the public in the fall.

Impetus for improvements: "...improve transportation and safety, provide a faster hurricane evacuation route, enhance movement for trucks coming from the Port of Virginia, improve connectivity for the military and create job and economic opportunities on the Route 460 corridor in southeastern Virginia"

Here are the 5 alternatives being looked at:

Alternative 1: A four-lane tolled road that runs south of the existing Route 460; identified as the preferred alternative in the original Environmental Impact Statement.

Alternative 2: A four-lane road that runs along the existing Route 460, including six bypasses around the existing towns. The bypasses will be evaluated as both tolled and not tolled.

Alternative 3: A four-lane tolled road that runs north of the existing Route 460; identified as CBA-3 in the original Environmental Impact Statement.

Alternative 4:  The existing Route 460 would be rebuilt to meet standards for pavement, medians, shoulders, and intersections.

Alternative 5: An eight-lane road that follows a corridor similar to Alternative 2. Four of the eight lanes (two eastbound, two westbound) are tolled as in Alternatives 1 or 3. The remaining four lanes are untolled local roads with an eastbound and westbound lane on each side of the tolled road. At the bypasses, the local lanes merge onto existing Route 460 through the towns and the tolled lanes follow the bypass route.

Alternative 5 would be just like TX 130 (without the 85 mph speed limit) and US 183's relationship.  Also this would require a lot of accommodation (i.e. overpasses) for multiple U-turns along the route as there are innumerable driveway accesses throughout the whole length.

A mix of alternatives 2 and 4 seem like the most balanced approach to this corridor to me...

Mapmikey
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on June 18, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
Between swampland and a lot of areas outside the towns where buildings are close to the roadway, I don't see Alternative 5 getting any traction.

Agree that a mix of 2 and 4 is the best bet.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: amroad17 on June 18, 2014, 05:50:20 PM
IIRC, driving on US 460 through Windsor, Wakefield, Ivor, and Waverly was not much of a problem--probably because of the 35 mph limit.  The problem is between the towns where the speed limit is 55 on a narrow, four-lane footprint with no "dedicated" left turn lanes.  If US 460 could be widened about 10 feet on each side in these areas, and improve on the intersections, it would make the road much safer (following alternative 4).

Alternative 2 would also be an excellent option, especially for those drivers who do not like slowing down to go through these towns.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 09, 2014, 01:34:33 PM
Bacon's Rebellion: Some Answers, More Questions about the 460 Fiasco (http://www.baconsrebellion.com/2014/07/some-answers-more-questions-about-the-460-fiasco.html)

QuoteIf you're new to the U.S. 460 Connector controversy and need a primer to bring you up to speed, I'd recommend you read the new Virginia Business cover story written by Paula Squires. She provides an digestible overview of a complex story and advances public understanding with some fresh reporting. In particular, she homes in on a central question for which I have yet to see a clear, concise explanation: How did the Virginia Department of Transportation come to pay $250 million to its public-private partner in the $1.4 billion project, US Mobility Partners, before critical wetlands permits were issued by the Army Corps of Engineers?

QuoteSquires does not provide the answer but she gets us closer to the answer. She interviewed Charlie Kilpatrick, the current highway commissioner who was deputy commissioner under the McDonnell administration.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on July 16, 2014, 07:57:28 PM
Town Hall meetings on this project have been announced by VDOT for late July in 5 communities...

http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/hampton_roads/2014/vdot_schedules_town_hall74534.asp

Mapmikey
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 13, 2014, 11:36:01 PM
Washington Post op-ed: Robert McDonnell's other big scandal: Bum deal on U.S. 460 project cost Virginia plenty (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/robert-mcdonnells-other-big-scandal-bum-deal-on-us-460-project-cost-virginia-plenty/2014/10/11/ebf08fc6-50be-11e4-babe-e91da079cb8a_story.html)

QuoteBob McDonnell will go into history as the first of 72 Virginia governors to be convicted of corruption, but we should remember him as well for a second scandal that cost the taxpayers a ton of money.

QuoteMcDonnell's curious, long-standing obsession with building a new highway parallel to U.S. 460 outside Hampton Roads led his administration to spend $300 million (and counting) without first ensuring that the project would receive necessary environmental permits.

QuoteWhoops. As some officials and outside critics had warned from the start, a government study issued last month said the federal permits will be virtually impossible to obtain because of the risk of damaging wetlands.

QuoteAs a result, there is a "very low probability"  that the state will try to build the new highway, Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne said. Instead, the state will carry out cheaper and less environmentally harmful improvements to the existing road stretching southeast from Petersburg to Suffolk.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 12:37:28 PM
When, and why, did freakin' swamps become so much of a sacred cow?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 1995hoo on October 14, 2014, 12:53:53 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 13, 2014, 11:36:01 PM
Washington Post op-ed: Robert McDonnell's other big scandal: Bum deal on U.S. 460 project cost Virginia plenty (http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/robert-mcdonnells-other-big-scandal-bum-deal-on-us-460-project-cost-virginia-plenty/2014/10/11/ebf08fc6-50be-11e4-babe-e91da079cb8a_story.html)

....

I'm not sure that's really an "op-ed" because it appeared in Sunday's Metro section, rather than on the editorial page, and it was written by columnist Robert McCartney. He's another Post columnist who seems to be a professional whiner, as just about everything he writes is a complaint.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: NE2 on October 14, 2014, 01:17:37 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 12:37:28 PM
When, and why, did freakin' swamps become so much of a sacred cow?
Thanks, Nixon!
Title: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: formulanone on October 14, 2014, 03:12:49 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 12:37:28 PM
When, and why, did freakin' swamps become so much of a sacred cow?

Well...this is a big deal in Florida, so it may be for different reasons in Virginia, thus I'm going to speak out my butt from here (as I have no engineering nor geological experience nor qualifications).

Sometimes they're a good outlet for water flow (such as natural storm water discharge), so "ruining" them could cause flooding or swampy areas to appear where they're not desirable. Swampy areas also cause roads to become unstable and bumpy a bit quicker, due to ground instability and there's additional roadbed elevation issues, costs, et cetera.

I don't think it's a "save the swamp animals issue", as much as a "did they think of the potential impacts issue".
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on October 14, 2014, 06:26:54 PM
QuoteWhen, and why, did freakin' swamps become so much of a sacred cow?

When it was discovered that they really do help with water quality....nevermind the flood-related issues that formulaone mentioned.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
Just how restrictive are these regulations against encroachments on wetlands?

Here in my county, a section of road was built in the late 1980s. There are some areas at the base of some of the rock cuts that tend to hold water, and cattails have sprouted. Even if it's bone dry and has been for two weeks when a mowing cycle gets underway, the mowing crews won't cut the cattails down, even if they're using sickle or batwing mowers that work to the side of the tractor and there's no danger of the tractor getting stuck.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on October 14, 2014, 10:27:43 PM
QuoteJust how restrictive are these regulations against encroachments on wetlands?

Army Corps of Engineers dictates that, as they're the ones that issue the wetlands permits.  In short, they don't like excessive wetlands impacts from construction projects, and 480 acres (the estimated amount from the 460 project...equals 3/4 of a square mile, BTW) is pretty excessive.  Also, any projects that do receive a permit must replace lost wetlands at a 2:1 ratio (2 replacement acres per 1 lost/destroyed acre), though I've heard of this "wetland credits" program that some state DOTs buy into.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 15, 2014, 12:19:08 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 14, 2014, 12:53:53 PM
I'm not sure that's really an "op-ed" because it appeared in Sunday's Metro section, rather than on the editorial page, and it was written by columnist Robert McCartney. He's another Post columnist who seems to be a professional whiner, as just about everything he writes is a complaint.

The paper calls what McCartney writes these days as "local opinion," so IMO what he writes qualifies as op-eds.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Alex on October 16, 2014, 10:01:10 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
Just how restrictive are these regulations against encroachments on wetlands?

Here in my county, a section of road was built in the late 1980s. There are some areas at the base of some of the rock cuts that tend to hold water, and cattails have sprouted. Even if it's bone dry and has been for two weeks when a mowing cycle gets underway, the mowing crews won't cut the cattails down, even if they're using sickle or batwing mowers that work to the side of the tractor and there's no danger of the tractor getting stuck.

I cannot attest to Virginia's regulations, but in Delaware, when they were building the SR 1 Turnpike, they added mitigation sites to offset wetlands disrupted by the road's construction.  Another example that comes to mind is an area of wetlands created off Salem Church Road in New Castle County in the 1990s that offset wetlands filling for the new Delaware 273 alignment. I think this is common practice for most projects in the state nowadays.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 1995hoo on October 16, 2014, 10:22:32 AM
Quote from: Alex on October 16, 2014, 10:01:10 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2014, 09:51:45 PM
Just how restrictive are these regulations against encroachments on wetlands?

Here in my county, a section of road was built in the late 1980s. There are some areas at the base of some of the rock cuts that tend to hold water, and cattails have sprouted. Even if it's bone dry and has been for two weeks when a mowing cycle gets underway, the mowing crews won't cut the cattails down, even if they're using sickle or batwing mowers that work to the side of the tractor and there's no danger of the tractor getting stuck.

I cannot attest to Virginia's regulations, but in Delaware, when they were building the SR 1 Turnpike, they added mitigation sites to offset wetlands disrupted by the road's construction.  Another example that comes to mind is an area of wetlands created off Salem Church Road in New Castle County in the 1990s that offset wetlands filling for the new Delaware 273 alignment. I think this is common practice for most projects in the state nowadays.

I don't know much about regulations, but I know a relatively small project near my house (the widening of a 0.2-mile segment of Secondary Route 611, Telegraph Road, between South Van Dorn Street and South Kings Highway (http://goo.gl/maps/bzGTP)) was held up for some time due to wetlands issues because the road crosses over Dogue Creek (which drains into the Potomac and, by extension, the Chesapeake) and Huntley Meadows Park is nearby to the south. Heck, wetlands issues were cited as one reason (though not the only reason) why a pedestrian sidewalk was not originally constructed alongside the newest segment of Van Dorn from King Centre Drive to Telegraph Road. (The pedestrian path shown on the map link above is not the same path as the sidewalk they later constructed.)

If a small project like that got held up by the environmental process, I have no difficulty at all accepting that the Route 460 project would face far more significant hurdles.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2014, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 14, 2014, 10:27:43 PM
QuoteJust how restrictive are these regulations against encroachments on wetlands?

Army Corps of Engineers dictates that, as they're the ones that issue the wetlands permits.  In short, they don't like excessive wetlands impacts from construction projects, and 480 acres (the estimated amount from the 460 project...equals 3/4 of a square mile, BTW) is pretty excessive.  Also, any projects that do receive a permit must replace lost wetlands at a 2:1 ratio (2 replacement acres per 1 lost/destroyed acre), though I've heard of this "wetland credits" program that some state DOTs buy into.

VDOT used to (and may still) procure land and credits as part of what they call "wetlands banking."

Maryland did a combination of things to mitigate the wetlands that were impacted by Md. 200 - they purchased other wetlands sites (some in other subwatersheds of the Potomac River), they also did (and are still doing) a lot of stormwater management retrofits in the Anacostia River and Rock Creek watersheds.

As I understand it nearly all highway construction projects in the U.S. of any size (and the scale of the proposed U.S. 460 project was certainly big enough) must have a permit issued by the Army Corps of Engineers (with concurrence from the USEPA), which is mandated by Section 404 of the Clean Water Act.  I am not always a fan of either agency, but that's the law, and has been in effect for many years. 

That McDonnell (and the people working for him at VDOT) thought they could ignore Section 404 strikes me as stupid or fanciful - or maybe some of both.  At least Secretary of Transportation Sean Connaughton (formerly an elected official in Prince William County) should have made it very clear to McDonnell that the project was "goin' noplace fast" without the Section 404 permit.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2014, 03:42:28 PM
Richmond Times-Dispatch op-ed (from 2014-10-04): Why do bad roads keep happening? (http://www.timesdispatch.com/opinion/their-opinion/mccarthy-why-do-bad-roads-keep-happening/article_24ed1c56-879c-543d-bda5-e5cde5371f2b.html)

QuoteA long-time friend recently asked me to explain how the Commonwealth of Virginia could have invested $300 million in a new road, the proposed new Route 460, and not yet turned the first shovel of dirt, or even gotten required federal and state permissions to proceed with the project. This is not just about 460: he could as easily asked about the proposed Charlottesville Bypass or the Outer Beltway in Northern Virginia.

QuoteI cite these as examples of "bad roads"  because they are expensive and they typify a single-minded, piecemeal approach to what could be elegant, environmentally and fiscally responsible solutions to improved, integrated and affordable transportation across the commonwealth. Why does this approach persist? I offer four reasons plus a context that bears on the matter.

QuoteThe four direct reasons that apply are: a lack of critical thinking and analysis; a lack of timely accountability for decisions about roads; a failure to set and stick to transportation priorities; and a lack of independent oversight of the road-building process. Each is important.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 1995hoo on October 16, 2014, 03:59:24 PM
I think the thing I found most interesting in that RTD piece was the old picture of I-495's Outer Loop at the I-66 interchange.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2014, 05:57:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 16, 2014, 03:59:24 PM
I think the thing I found most interesting in that RTD piece was the old picture of I-495's Outer Loop at the I-66 interchange.

Agreed.  I was not especially a fan of the article, and some of it sounded like anti-mobility propaganda straight from the PEC, but posted it because it discussed the U.S. 460 project.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 16, 2014, 06:06:24 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 16, 2014, 10:22:32 AM
I don't know much about regulations, but I know a relatively small project near my house (the widening of a 0.2-mile segment of Secondary Route 611, Telegraph Road, between South Van Dorn Street and South Kings Highway (http://goo.gl/maps/bzGTP)) was held up for some time due to wetlands issues because the road crosses over Dogue Creek (which drains into the Potomac and, by extension, the Chesapeake) and Huntley Meadows Park is nearby to the south. Heck, wetlands issues were cited as one reason (though not the only reason) why a pedestrian sidewalk was not originally constructed alongside the newest segment of Van Dorn from King Centre Drive to Telegraph Road. (The pedestrian path shown on the map link above is not the same path as the sidewalk they later constructed.)

Wetlands was cited as one of the reasons that the multi-use trail along Md. 200 is so discontiguous, an excuse that I had (and have) a very hard time with.  If the Corps can issue a Section 404 permit for a six-lane Interstate-type road, then sure as Hades they should be able to allow a trail for bikes and pedestrians alongside.

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 16, 2014, 10:22:32 AM
If a small project like that got held up by the environmental process, I have no difficulty at all accepting that the Route 460 project would face far more significant hurdles.

Agreed.  Though ideally Congress would (but is probably incapable of doing so) set a threshold below which some of the Section 404 requirements do not apply or are made much less demanding. 
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 12, 2015, 03:04:46 PM
Well VDOT has made a recommendation on the portion from Zuni to US 58 (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2015/vdot_fhwa_and_u.s.78870.asp) (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2015/vdot_fhwa_and_u.s.78870.asp).  I guess they are splitting up the project now for whatever reason.

Basically the recommendation being presented to the CTB involves a new road from US 58 to west of Windsor (the location seems to be roughly located about where Alternative 3 is east of US 258).  The rest of current US 460 to west of Zuni would be widened to a 4-lane divided highway including a replacement bridge over the Blackwater River.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on January 12, 2015, 05:44:20 PM
If you intended a link there, it didn't work.

Here's a link to the VDOT press release (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2015/vdot_fhwa_and_u.s.78870.asp).
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on January 13, 2015, 07:26:17 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 12, 2015, 03:04:46 PM
Well VDOT has made a recommendation on the portion from Zuni to US 58 (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2015/vdot_fhwa_and_u.s.78870.asp) (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2015/vdot_fhwa_and_u.s.78870.asp).  I guess they are splitting up the project now for whatever reason.

Basically the recommendation being presented to the CTB involves a new road from US 58 to west of Windsor (the location seems to be roughly located about where Alternative 3 is east of US 258).  The rest of current US 460 to west of Zuni would be widened to a 4-lane divided highway including a replacement bridge over the Blackwater River.

Richmond Times-Dispatch: State, federal transportation officials identify shorter, cheaper alternative to improve U.S. 460 in southeastern Virginia (http://www.richmond.com/business/article_1f6e933e-e945-521d-97a4-e9e440261aba.html)

QuoteState and federal transportation officials have determined what could be a shorter, cheaper and environmentally permissible alternative to the proposed $1.4 billion U.S. 460 improvement project.

QuoteThe Virginia Department of Transportation, the Federal Highway Administration and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers have identified what appears to be "the least environmentally damaging practicable alternative"  to improve the U.S. 460 corridor in southeastern Virginia at a cost of $375 million to $425 million.

QuoteThe recommended alternative would improve 17 miles of U.S. 460 from Suffolk to west of Zuni, state and federal officials said Monday.

QuoteA new four-lane divided highway would be built from the U.S. 460/U.S. 58 interchange in Suffolk to west of Windsor. From west of Windsor to west of Zuni, the existing U.S. 460 would be upgraded to a four-lane divided highway and include a new bridge across the Blackwater River to eliminate longstanding flooding problems. No improvements to U.S. 460 would be made west of Zuni, VDOT Commissioner Charles Kilpatrick said.

Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on February 21, 2015, 08:48:22 PM
In the Feb 2015 meeting the CTB officially adopted the jan 2015 recommendation to build a new 460 alignment west from the Suffolk bypass, crossing existing 460 then bypassing to the north of Windsor and returning to the existing 460 before Zuni, with roadway improvements to about Zuni.  They have officially adopted the "no-build" option from Zuni west to I-295.

The new roadway portion of this will be limited access.

http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2015/feb/reso/Resolution_Agenda_Item_12.pdf

Unrelated to this, the CTB also truncated the east end of VA 205Y by 50 feet (from the last business driveway to the dead end)...

Mapmikey

Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on February 22, 2015, 02:56:12 PM
Not sure I fully agree with a "no build" west of Zuni....unless that doesn't preclude making improvements (i.e. shoulders or a median, even if a flush median) west of Zuni.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 22, 2015, 04:11:08 PM
Opinion article from TidewaterNews.com: Fundamental step skipped on 460 (http://www.tidewaternews.com/2015/02/21/fundamental-step-skipped-on-460/)

QuoteWith wind chill temperature values dropping below zero around most of Virginia this week, perhaps the Commonwealth Transportation Board chose on Thursday to put the cart before the horse in an effort to give the battered old nag a bit of shelter.

QuoteWhatever their reason for doing so, commissioners jumped the gun by approving a preliminary plan for a 17-mile upgrade to Route 460. There are many questions about the project that will be answered during the environmental review and permitting process. But one vital question seems to have been missed altogether in the rush to rescue an earlier version of the project that would have stretched 55 miles from Suffolk to Petersburg: Does the new version of the project meet the needs advanced for the project to begin with?

QuoteWhen the McAuliffe administration began looking at the former Route 460 project that had been left by its predecessor, it found that $300 million had been spent with no visible benefit and that there was little likelihood the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers would ever approve the road, anyway, as it would have displaced hundreds of acres of wetlands.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on February 22, 2015, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on February 22, 2015, 02:56:12 PM
Not sure I fully agree with a "no build" west of Zuni....unless that doesn't preclude making improvements (i.e. shoulders or a median, even if a flush median) west of Zuni.

I would interpret their phrasing "...there is no intention to pursue corridor improvements west of the
recommended Preferred Alternative. " to mean no improvements but I also agree some spot improvements are surely warranted between I-295 and Zuni...

Mapmikey
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 16, 2015, 10:56:19 PM
GoDanRiver.com:  Virginia looks to end contract to build new toll road (http://www.godanriver.com/work_it_sova/news/virginia-looks-to-end-contract-to-build-new-toll-road/article_ea7477d8-e3c2-11e4-ad02-3f15f8815481.html)

QuoteAfter already spending more than $280 million on the project, the Virginia Department of Transportation gave notice Wednesday that it plans to terminate its contract to build a new toll road that would parallel the existing U.S. 460 from Suffolk to Petersburg.

QuoteWork on the road was halted by Gov. Terry McAuliffe's administration before construction ever started last spring because of concerns it wouldn't receive the necessary permits from the Army Corps of Engineers. The corps has said the 55-mile highway's construction would affect hundreds of acres of wetland.

QuoteThe road was conceived by former Gov. Bob McDonnell's administration as a secondary hurricane evacuation route for Hampton Roads and as a way to alleviate congestion on Interstate 64 by providing truck drivers with an alternate route to and from the state's port terminals.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Zeffy on April 16, 2015, 11:01:15 PM
I don't see why DOTs preemptively spend millions of dollars on a project without first making sure it's actually something they can do. Also, I'm not too familiar with Petersburg and the Chesapeake area, but is US 460 that bad that they needed to build a tolled roadway next to it?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 16, 2015, 11:12:08 PM
US 460 was THAT BAD 25 years ago, sadly, upgrading VA 10 may have been a better option.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 17, 2015, 12:06:36 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on April 16, 2015, 11:01:15 PM
I don't see why DOTs preemptively spend millions of dollars on a project without first making sure it's actually something they can do. Also, I'm not too familiar with Petersburg and the Chesapeake area, but is US 460 that bad that they needed to build a tolled roadway next to it?

Not really, it is just a lot of truck traffic.  The main problem is that there is no median despite being widened to 4 lanes back in the 1950s.  Really a median is the only thing needed just to make the road a safer drive.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2015, 12:17:05 PM
Network redundancy from Hampton Roads to I-95 was (and is) the compelling reason for a limited-access, high-speed east-west alternative to I-64. 

Was the U.S. 460 project the right answer? I cannot say.   The Corps of Engineers apparently considered the wetlands impact of the 460 project to be excessive, and they alone issue the Section 404 (of the Clean Water Act) permits.

Upgrading U.S. 58 (beyond the reasonably high-speed arterial road in place now) or Va. 10 (though would that mean more speed trap revenue for Hopewell?) would have had their own merits.  Which would have provided the most transportation benefit for the least environmental impact and expense?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Henry on April 17, 2015, 01:08:58 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 17, 2015, 12:17:05 PM
Network redundancy from Hampton Roads to I-95 was (and is) the compelling reason for a limited-access, high-speed east-west alternative to I-64. 

Was the U.S. 460 project the right answer? I cannot say.   The Corps of Engineers apparently considered the wetlands impact of the 460 project to be excessive, and they alone issue the Section 404 (of the Clean Water Act) permits.

Upgrading U.S. 58 (beyond the reasonably high-speed arterial road in place now) or Va. 10 (though would that mean more speed trap revenue for Hopewell?) would have had their own merits.  Which would have provided the most transportation benefit for the least environmental impact and expense?
A US 58 upgrade would be the better way to go, as that would provide a nonstop shortcut from I-85 to Hampton Roads.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on April 17, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
Just as I was moving to Newport News in 1991, I recall as sales tax increase that was dedicated to US 58 upgrades statewide.  Is this tax still in effect?  has it been diverted to unintended accounts?  Could that be used for a 58 additional upgrade?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: wdcrft63 on April 17, 2015, 06:11:03 PM
Larger considerations set aside, I have to believe that 460 is not adequate or safe between I-295 and the start of the project at Zuni. A median and bypasses of congested areas are needed.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: skluth on April 19, 2015, 12:35:23 AM
Quote from: Zeffy on April 16, 2015, 11:01:15 PM
I don't see why DOTs preemptively spend millions of dollars on a project without first making sure it's actually something they can do. Also, I'm not too familiar with Petersburg and the Chesapeake area, but is US 460 that bad that they needed to build a tolled roadway next to it?

IMO, adding an extra lane to 64 between Tidewater and Richmond would be more effective as would converting US 58 to a freeway from 95 to Suffolk. Other than the first ten miles or so west of 13 (about to Zuni), 460 is fine although a true median would be better. A limited access highway is probably needed from Zuni to 13. The 460 toll project was a pet project of the last governor who I believe is now in prison.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on May 05, 2015, 03:27:05 PM
Virginian-Pilot editorial: Forget 460 - Improve U.S. 58 instead (http://hamptonroads.com/2015/05/forget-460-improve-us-58-instead)

QuoteThe justification for building an expensive, interstate-level U.S. 460 rested on the ideas that a new road would help more people escape a major hurricane and make it easier to move goods to and from the west.

QuoteNeither of those conditions will be satisfied now that the state has formally canceled the $1.4 billion plan to build a toll road between Suffolk and Petersburg.

QuoteThe 55-mile original idea - which former Gov. Bob McDonnell and other administration officials pushed relentlessly despite warnings that it couldn't win environmental approval - has already cost the state more than $250 million without laying a single mile of new asphalt.

QuoteThe state now is attempting to make something of those millions as part of a deal to scale back the original U.S. 460 project to a 17-mile road between Suffolk and Zuni.

QuoteEven so, the initial plans for the project - as well as the millions wasted - have become another object lesson in the perils of public-private partnerships when the state doesn't do its homework.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on July 05, 2015, 04:39:30 PM
Washington Post: Va. spends $260 million on unbuilt road, says it could've been worse

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/va-spends-260-million-on-unbuilt-road-but-says-it-could-have-been-worse/2015/07/02/638d9b62-20d2-11e5-aeb9-a411a84c9d55_story.html

Negotiated settlement resulted in the contractor returning $46M to Virginia, bringing the final tally spent for zero amount of road to $260M.

Evidently the contract still called for Virginia to owe another $100M despite no road being forthcoming...

Mike
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 07, 2015, 05:56:20 PM
This should outrage every taxpaying resident of the Commonwealth.  The Bob McDonnell Administration was far too infatuated with PPTA projects, even though this project DID and DOES have some merit.

SGP561

Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: NJRoadfan on July 07, 2015, 06:11:25 PM
So.... how much of that cool $260 million land up in the former governor's pockets and of his campaign contributors?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Rothman on July 07, 2015, 11:00:45 PM
In my experience, NYSDOT takes 9-digit financial numbers incredibly seriously.  I brought this situation up in Virginia today and said that NYSDOT should try the "it could have been worse" excuse in case it ever blows it that badly.  Laughter all around.

What'll be interesting is if the administration remains unscathed.  It's incredible to me that the public will swallow losses of hundreds of millions but if you hear about a government agency spending five-digits on a party, all Hell breaks loose.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on July 08, 2015, 06:16:17 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2015, 11:00:45 PM

What'll be interesting is if the administration remains unscathed.  It's incredible to me that the public will swallow losses of hundreds of millions but if you hear about a government agency spending five-digits on a party, all Hell breaks loose.

With Virginia's system of governance limited to a single 4-year term for the governor, by the time these sorts of things get sorted out the responsible administration is usually already out of power.  The former governor (Bob McDonnell) is headed to jail for corruption stuff unrelated to this particular boondoggle.  The transportation secretary behind this mess always has no comment whenever some new tidbit about this comes out.

Virginia's PPTA law is being revised to prevent this sort of thing from happening again.

Mike

Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 08, 2015, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Rothman on July 07, 2015, 11:00:45 PM
What'll be interesting is if the administration remains unscathed.  It's incredible to me that the public will swallow losses of hundreds of millions but if you hear about a government agency spending five-digits on a party, all Hell breaks loose.

Unfortunately, there has been a tradition in Virginia that small numbers are taken very seriously, but large numbers like the ones associated with this project are not.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Rothman on July 08, 2015, 11:18:25 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 08, 2015, 10:00:07 AM

What'll be interesting is if the administration remains unscathed.  It's incredible to me that the public will swallow losses of hundreds of millions but if you hear about a government agency spending five-digits on a party, all Hell breaks loose.

Right.  I was saying that befuddling sentiment is not unique to Virginia, but is prevalent in American society as a whole. 

Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Henry on July 10, 2015, 01:24:45 PM
So if there are no improvements coming to US 460, why spend any money on it at all? It could've been part of a longer I-64 alternative (I-62, perhaps?) that would allow a complete bypass of Richmond to the south.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on July 10, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
QuoteSo if there are no improvements coming to US 460, why spend any money on it at all?

Because A) there is still a need for improvements, even if what was previously proposed was scuttled, and B) because VDOT was contractually obligated to pay the PPP contractor for "mobilization" costs even though they weren't doing any work due to the lack of wetlands permits.  This is where the vast bulk of the $260 million spent went.

QuoteIt could've been part of a longer I-64 alternative (I-62, perhaps?) that would allow a complete bypass of Richmond to the south.

This is far beyond the scope of the project that was planned.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 17, 2016, 03:42:55 PM
Update on the current plan:  The feds have given it preliminary approval (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/u-s-expansion-plan-gets-preliminary-approval-from-feds/article_bb6267e4-0efc-59b4-a754-1ab46d790cf5.html), but Windsor and Isle of Wight County do not support it for economic/environmental reasons.  The Southern Environmental Law Center still believes that the wetland impact of 35 acres is too high.  (The article says the toll road plan under McDonnell was for over 600, I guess you cannot please environmental lobbyists.)
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: LM117 on June 17, 2016, 06:20:12 PM
Windsor needs to have a seat. The last time I was on US-460 east of Petersburg was when I went to the Eastern Shore of VA in April 2010 when I lived in Farmville, which is right off of US-460. Based on what I saw when I came through Windsor, their economy was already crap. They can't lose what they didn't have to start with. US-460 needs upgraded badly.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
US 460 needs upgrading, yes.  But the dispute is the level of upgrading needed, which conversely translates into how much money you're willing to spend on a corridor that A) doesn't see all that much traffic in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to I-64 east of Richmond or even US 58), and B) doesn't have much of a population or economy base to capitalize on the improvement.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: LM117 on June 18, 2016, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
US 460 needs upgrading, yes.  But the dispute is the level of upgrading needed, which conversely translates into how much money you're willing to spend on a corridor that A) doesn't see all that much traffic in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to I-64 east of Richmond or even US 58), and B) doesn't have much of a population or economy base to capitalize on the improvement.

At the very least, VDOT could add a median and a center turn lane where needed, but I agree that I-64 would be a better investment compared to US-460.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: LM117 on June 18, 2016, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
US 460 needs upgrading, yes.  But the dispute is the level of upgrading needed, which conversely translates into how much money you're willing to spend on a corridor that A) doesn't see all that much traffic in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to I-64 east of Richmond or even US 58), and B) doesn't have much of a population or economy base to capitalize on the improvement.

At the very least, VDOT could add a median and a center turn lane where needed, but I agree that I-64 would be a better investment compared to US-460.

My problem with only improving I-64 is simple - there are intermodal transportation (seaports) and military assets in Hampton Roads that are national in importance, and as I suggested upthread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=449.msg2058679#msg2058679), network redundancy is a good thing, and improving I-64 alone does not provide much of that (even if capacity at the HRBT is dramatically increased by adding two new tubes or by other means).

Improving U.S. 460 (or perhaps U.S. 58) to a freeway-type road does improve that redundancy. 
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: noelbotevera on June 19, 2016, 10:11:03 PM
I'm gonna check out US 460 in Petersburg when I go to the Richmond area tomorrow. I'll see if traffic can't be that bad.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:12:23 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 19, 2016, 10:11:03 PM
I'm gonna check out US 460 in Petersburg when I go to the Richmond area tomorrow. I'll see if traffic can't be that bad.

Remember that U.S. 460 does not go through Richmond - and in any case, beware of the I-295 speed trap north of U.S. 460 in Hopewell.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Jmiles32 on June 19, 2016, 11:27:47 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 19, 2016, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: LM117 on June 18, 2016, 03:59:03 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 18, 2016, 12:40:12 PM
US 460 needs upgrading, yes.  But the dispute is the level of upgrading needed, which conversely translates into how much money you're willing to spend on a corridor that A) doesn't see all that much traffic in the grand scheme of things (especially compared to I-64 east of Richmond or even US 58), and B) doesn't have much of a population or economy base to capitalize on the improvement.

At the very least, VDOT could add a median and a center turn lane where needed, but I agree that I-64 would be a better investment compared to US-460.

My problem with only improving I-64 is simple - there are intermodal transportation (seaports) and military assets in Hampton Roads that are national in importance, and as I suggested upthread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=449.msg2058679#msg2058679), network redundancy is a good thing, and improving I-64 alone does not provide much of that (even if capacity at the HRBT is dramatically increased by adding two new tubes or by other means).

Improving U.S. 460 (or perhaps U.S. 58) to a freeway-type road does improve that redundancy. 

Agreed. US-58 as of now is good except of that terrible stench in Holland west of the Suffolk bypass. That part should be upgraded immediately! I think the best option regarding US-460 would be to build a new US-460 freeway from the Suffolk bypass to Zuni as that is where the most traffic occurs. West of Zuni all that should be done is to add a darn median already. I haven't traveled the route in a while but I can imagine during beach season, driving down that road could be very stressful. Around how much would adding a median on US-460 west of Zuni cost? I assume it would please the environmentalists. All I know is that I'm glad Hampton Roads is finally recognizing and doing something to fix its traffic

FYI, I am not trying to nitpick posts based on grammar, but please try to at least proofread before posting (especially if you are unsure how to spell something).
-Thanks,
Mark
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: amroad17 on June 21, 2016, 04:32:10 AM
Maybe Virginia should do what Texas has done.  Texas has a three tentacled I-69 branching near the Corpus Christi area.  Why can't Hampton Roads have three tentacles branching west toward Richmond, Petersburg, and Emporia?  I mean one is already finished, why not work on the other two.  It can't do anything but help.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 21, 2016, 07:19:54 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on June 21, 2016, 04:32:10 AM
Maybe Virginia should do what Texas has done.  Texas has a three tentacled I-69 branching near the Corpus Christi area.  Why can't Hampton Roads have three tentacles branching west toward Richmond, Petersburg, and Emporia?  I mean one is already finished, why not work on the other two.  It can't do anything but help.

I think NC would make sure future I-87 is part of your plan  :-D  In all seriousness though, I-64 EB already turns west, and I doubt Hampton Roads would want to confuse its residents and tourists anymore than it already has.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: froggie on June 21, 2016, 08:14:32 AM
There's also the little matter of traffic volumes and cost-effectiveness for a freeway-grade facility.  US 460 doesn't have it.  Despite what some in NC would like to believe, neither does US 17.  US 58 only barely has it, and at that only as far west as Emporia.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on June 25, 2016, 11:12:03 AM
ROUTE 460 PROJECT SOUTHEAST VIRGINIA FINAL SUPPLEMENTAL ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STATEMENT AVAILABLE FOR  REVIEW

http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2016/route_460_project_southeast102444.asp

If the permit is issued by the Army Corp of Engineers, the project will then be scored under what used to be referred to as HB2...
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: noelbotevera on June 26, 2016, 09:52:23 PM
I checked out part of US 460 in Petersburg, while traveling in and around Richmond for the last 2 weeks. It seems many signs point that US 460 was never rerouted onto I-85 through Petersburg, and that US 460 Business doesn't exist. Culpeper had this same phenomenon, so I'm betting that independent cities such as Petersburg and Culpeper maintain their own signs, and that they never have updated the 30+ year old signs.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 26, 2016, 10:21:22 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 26, 2016, 09:52:23 PM
I checked out part of US 460 in Petersburg, while traveling in and around Richmond for the last 2 weeks. It seems many signs point that US 460 was never rerouted onto I-85 through Petersburg, and that US 460 Business doesn't exist. Culpeper had this same phenomenon, so I'm betting that independent cities such as Petersburg and Culpeper maintain their own signs, and that they never have updated the 30+ year old signs.

Yes Petersburg and Culpeper maintain their own signs as independent cities, but I lived in the Petersburg area for 23 years and both US 460 and US 460 Business have always been fully posted on their respective routes.  The 2007 relocation of US 460 onto Wagner Rd and I-95 is not that well-posted though, and there are a 460 shields without the business banner on the old US 460 on County Dr there.  (The I-85/US 460 cutout shields are also considered iconic to roads/signs enthusiasts as well.)
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
Virginian Pilot/Pilotonline.com: Army Corp of Engineers approve permit for U.S. 460 project (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/army-corp-of-engineers-approve-permit-for-u-s-project/article_0ac82206-8d52-5d8c-aaec-45bb0ef7e23d.html)

QuoteThe Army Corps of Engineers has approved a permit to allow 16 miles of highway improvements to U.S. 460.

QuoteThe corps is responsible for making sure road projects damage the environment as little as possible. The proposal affects 35 acres of wetlands.

QuoteIt's a major hurdle for a project that had run into environmental roadblocks before.

QuoteEfforts to expand U.S. 460 have faltered over the past decade when a proposed 55-mile toll road from Suffolk to Petersburg was pushed through a contracting process without a permit from the corps.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 11:28:08 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
QuoteEfforts to expand U.S. 460 have faltered over the past decade when a proposed 55-mile toll road from Suffolk to Petersburg was pushed through a contracting process without a permit from the corps.

Say wha?!  What idiot thought that was a good idea?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Mapmikey on October 04, 2016, 12:14:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 11:28:08 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
QuoteEfforts to expand U.S. 460 have faltered over the past decade when a proposed 55-mile toll road from Suffolk to Petersburg was pushed through a contracting process without a permit from the corps.

Say wha?!  What idiot thought that was a good idea?

Start with reply #77 on page 4 of this thread and read a couple pages worth...that should explain enough about what happened... 

Fixed quote.   -Mark
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on October 04, 2016, 12:14:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 11:28:08 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
QuoteEfforts to expand U.S. 460 have faltered over the past decade when a proposed 55-mile toll road from Suffolk to Petersburg was pushed through a contracting process without a permit from the corps.

Start with reply #77 on page 4 of this thread and read a couple pages worth...that should explain enough about what happened...

Say wha?!  What idiot thought that was a good idea?

Dear heavens.  What a cluster****.
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
Is the 460 toll road proposal still active, or has it been killed?
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on October 04, 2016, 06:19:50 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on October 04, 2016, 02:50:42 PM
Is the 460 toll road proposal still active, or has it been killed?

As originally conceived it has been killed. Just read through the rest of this thread to see what had happened.

Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 12:20:22 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on October 04, 2016, 12:14:33 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 04, 2016, 11:28:08 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 03, 2016, 01:13:29 PM
QuoteEfforts to expand U.S. 460 have faltered over the past decade when a proposed 55-mile toll road from Suffolk to Petersburg was pushed through a contracting process without a permit from the corps.

Start with reply #77 on page 4 of this thread and read a couple pages worth...that should explain enough about what happened...

Say wha?!  What idiot thought that was a good idea?

Dear heavens.  What a cluster****.

For the record, I am originally from one of the counties (Prince George) that this road was going to be in.  My history teacher in high school once even said that he would be in a wheelchair by the time the road was built. 

A bunch of recently-built houses (since 2000 I believe) would have been taken by VDOT along VA 156 where its interchange with US 460 would have been.  (This was the major reason why we discussed it a few times in school.)
Title: Re: US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 17, 2017, 08:14:23 PM
So we may finally be done with mentioning this project, once and for all:

Virginian-Pilot:  U.S. 460 project from Suffolk to Zuni likely dead. Here's why. (http://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/u-s-project-likely-dead-after-poor-score-on-smart/article_22be609c-2131-5bad-9ab7-cc46708e8b1c.html)