US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)

[1995hoo]

Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

That's a fair point. I have no idea. Takumi or froggie might know.

[NJRoadfan]

According to today's Virginia Pilot, the Governor-elect has indicated that he'll pull the plug on the new US 460 project.

See my post above from a few months ago. This isn't all that surprising.

[froggie]

Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not 100% the situation with US 460.  My previous post related to an article about the large number of wetlands that would be destroyed with the project...a number that was a lot higher than previously estimated and did not please the Corps of Engineers at all.  There may be some cost incurred with pulling the plug, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as, say, if construction had already begun (the case with Cincinnati).

[cpzilliacus]

Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not 100% the situation with US 460.  My previous post related to an article about the large number of wetlands that would be destroyed with the project...a number that was a lot higher than previously estimated and did not please the Corps of Engineers at all.  There may be some cost incurred with pulling the plug, but it wouldn't be nearly as bad as, say, if construction had already begun (the case with Cincinnati).

Wonder if there will be push-back by supporters of the project in the Virginia General Assembly?

Though anybody that knows anything about transportation infrastructure should know that Waters of the United States (definitely including wetlands) need to avoided if at all possible.

It seems that the people doing the planning for a tolled U.S. 460 may have forgotten that.

[Alps]

Are they at a point where they can cease spending any money until federal approval comes, or is more state money required to get to that point?

It would seem more wasteful to abandon the project before such a milestone, than to continue to spend money to get there.

A federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.

[hbelkins]

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

I'm not following that story, even though it's happening within about 3 hours of me. I heard a brief mention of it today on a Cincy radio station but wasn't paying attention to details.

[froggie]

A federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.

A planned road is useless if you can't get the Federal permit.  And there are strong indications that the Corps of Engineers would deny the wetlands permit due to the revised quantity of wetlands affected.

[1995hoo]

So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?

[NE2]

So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?

The fox.

[cpzilliacus]

A federal permit is useless if you don't have a road to build. They have expiration dates.

In this case, it seems they don't even have the federal permit(s). I presume at least they will need a Section 404 Clean Water Act permit.  Probably several others.
Post Merge: December 06, 2013, 04:20:59 PM

So is the planned road the chicken or the egg?

Maybe a raspberry?

[cpzilliacus]

TOLLROADSnews: New Virginia Governor says will "take a hard look"  at US460 project

The IRS 63-20 not-for-profit model employed by the McDonnell administration has a terrible track record, making defense of the project difficult.

Logically tolls should be going on I-64 where the heavy traffic is and which needs 3rd laning not in the US460 corridor where traffic is rather light.

[cpzilliacus]

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.

[DeaconG]

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.

Just Googled it.

Oh. My. God.

[Duke87]

Disclaimer: I am not familiar with the area this project is in.

But from reading a bit and looking at a map, two things strike me:

1) if the corridor sees only 20,000 AADT, can a toll road really generate enough revenue to pay for itself? Does the existing four lane road not handle that traffic effectively?

2) it duplicates I-64 in the sense that it heads from the Hampton Roads area on a northwesterly trajectory. Meanwhile, there is no freeway on a southwesterly trajectory from the area. Seems to me a freeway that headed towards Rocky Mount might be more worthwhile since it would serve a market not already served by an interstate. But then that would mean getting NC involved.

[ARMOURERERIC]

The existing US 460 is a 4 lane facility with just a double center line.  When I lived there, there were few left turn lanes and alot of head on collisions, plus IIRC, the lanes are only 10 or 11 feet wide.

[NE2]

2) it duplicates I-64 in the sense that it heads from the Hampton Roads area on a northwesterly trajectory. Meanwhile, there is no freeway on a southwesterly trajectory from the area. Seems to me a freeway that headed towards Rocky Mount might be more worthwhile since it would serve a market not already served by an interstate. But then that would mean getting NC involved.

Or upgrading US 58 (which is probably fine as-is). Going into NC doesn't cut much distance from the south and may increase the distance from the west on I-40/I-85.

[Bitmapped]

The existing US 460 is a 4 lane facility with just a double center line.  When I lived there, there were few left turn lanes and alot of head on collisions, plus IIRC, the lanes are only 10 or 11 feet wide.

You could presumably widen the road a couple feet and build some turn lanes for a lot less than the new alignment will cost.

[NE2]

You could presumably widen the road a couple feet and build some turn lanes for a lot less than the new alignment will cost.

But then you can't privatize it. And letting corporations make even more money off us is the wave of the future!

[Duke87]

If it's about safety rather than capacity, then yeah, widening the existing road a bit to add turn lanes where needed and a median barrier seems like a better use of resources.

I don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.

[froggie]

I don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.

It DOES have a lot of influence in Virginia, which has pushed the concept of Public-Private Partnerships to the breaking point.  And since it's the private sector that Virginia hopes to utilize to pay for roads (see the I-95 and Beltway HOT lanes for recent examples)...

But to answer your earlier question, this US 460 toll project doesn't even come close to covering its cost via tolls.  VDOT is STILL expected to cover over half the cost of the project (a minimum of $753M for a ~$1.4B project).

SPUI hints at this, but it would be more effective upgrading US 58 west of Suffolk than upgrading US 17 to the south.  Much more direct connection to both I-95 and I-85 for points southwest.  Some of it's already freeway, and aside from Suffolk, it flows pretty well already.  All that's really needed are spot improvements here and there.

Also hinted at...the existing US 460 is effectively a 4-lane UNdivided road.  Center turn lanes have been put in at the more major intersections, but most intersections along the corridor lack a left turn lane.  It also lacks shoulders.  Though well within capacity for the traffic volumes, there are notable safety issues.  Would have been far more cost effective to use that $750+M VDOT is paying for the toll project for improvements to the existing road, but that isn't "flashy" for the politicians nor can you get a private company to buy in with a funding pittance and then collect tolls.

[cpzilliacus]

I don't know that a desire to privatize the toll road has that much influence on the decision making - seems to me it's more that building a brand new road is politically sexier and a grander achievement to point to than making slight modifications to an existing one.

It DOES have a lot of influence in Virginia, which has pushed the concept of Public-Private Partnerships to the breaking point.  And since it's the private sector that Virginia hopes to utilize to pay for roads (see the I-95 and Beltway HOT lanes for recent examples)...

Virginia's PPTA was enacted during the administration of George Felix Allen.  I will not say more about him or his politics.

I agree that there are many in the Commonwealth that think the private sector will pay for (new) road capacity, but the financial track record of those projects is not good.  Is there even one winner among them?

At some point, I think it reasonable to assume that would be purchasers of such bonds are going to take a pass.

But to answer your earlier question, this US 460 toll project doesn't even come close to covering its cost via tolls.  VDOT is STILL expected to cover over half the cost of the project (a minimum of $753M for a ~$1.4B project).

This is correct.  More to the point, it appears that the Commonwealth is bearing the risk (perhaps as a result of financial disasters like the Pocahontas Parkway).

SPUI hints at this, but it would be more effective upgrading US 58 west of Suffolk than upgrading US 17 to the south.  Much more direct connection to both I-95 and I-85 for points southwest.  Some of it's already freeway, and aside from Suffolk, it flows pretty well already.  All that's really needed are spot improvements here and there.

I have had SPUI blocked for many months, but I must admit that I agree that upgrading U.S. 58 to a full freeway (certainly as far west as Emporia (I-95), maybe to South Hill (I-85)) makes a lot more sense, especially if combined with a widening of I-64.

Wonder if anyone in McDonnell's office ever bothered to discuss these?

Also hinted at...the existing US 460 is effectively a 4-lane UNdivided road.  Center turn lanes have been put in at the more major intersections, but most intersections along the corridor lack a left turn lane.  It also lacks shoulders.  Though well within capacity for the traffic volumes, there are notable safety issues.

I have only driven it once or twice, and the traffic was not especially heavy.  Reminded me a lot of long sections of U.S. 1 across Virginia and Maryland. 

Would have been far more cost effective to use that $750+M VDOT is paying for the toll project for improvements to the existing road, but that isn't "flashy" for the politicians nor can you get a private company to buy in with a funding pittance and then collect tolls.

Do the people that live along U.S. 460 want a road upgraded like that?  Do they care?

I don't know the answer to that question.

As far as "flashy" projects (and ribboncuttings for same) goes, exactly the same statement can be made about passenger rail transit projects in many parts of the U.S., including Virginia.

[Laura]

Oh, so kinda like the Cincinnati streetcar....(yes, I went there)

Adam, is there, is there planned (or was there supposed to be) a streetcar or light rail line in Cincy?

Never heard of it, which is why I ask.

Just Googled it.

Oh. My. God.

Google again for recent developments. It gets better.

[1995hoo]

WTOP reporting this morning the new administration is suspending the Route 460 project:

  http://wtop.com/120/3542133/State-official-says-Route-460-project-suspended

[NE2]

Go Dems.

[froggie]

Also noted down here via WAVY-10 and the Virginian Pilot.