US 460 (Petersburg, VA to Suffolk, VA)

[ARMOURERERIC]

I hope that at least they keep some kind of improvement on the table.  FWIW, again this is 2 year old first hand insight, but there was a building boom in progress in the Smithfield, Suffolk and areas just north of US 17 on the South side of the James River Bridge.  Getting the vehicle trips generated by these areas bound for Richmond is still a a worhty goal.

[froggie]

That's the catch...those vehicle trips aren't going to Richmond...they're going to Hampton Roads.

[74/171FAN]

Note: Due to other US 460 threads on this forum, and the fact that this thread is mostly about the project that is currently not happening from Petersburg to Suffolk.  I have changed the name of this topic.

-Mark

[cpzilliacus]

Richmond Times-Dispatch opinion column: Road to nowhere

The more the U.S. 460 project gets scrutinized, the less appealing it grows.

The 55-mile Petersburg-to-Suffolk road project, arranged through the state's public-private partnership law, has been beset by controversy for years. And now some suggest the nonprofit corporation behind the project might not have been as straight with bondholders as it could have been.

[Mapmikey]

An important nugget in that article is that Virginia has already spent $250 million which is a huge waste of $ on a project that had a real risk of being turned down for environmental reasons.  This amount could have gone towards the spot improvements that would improve the existing corridor.

Mapmikey

[froggie]

Don't tell Scott Kozel that...

[cpzilliacus]

An important nugget in that article is that Virginia has already spent $250 million which is a huge waste of $ on a project that had a real risk of being turned down for environmental reasons.  This amount could have gone towards the spot improvements that would improve the existing corridor.

I am normally in favor of building new highways on new alignments if and when possible.  And usually it is possible (see ICC, see Dulles Greenway, see Fairfax County Parkway, see the relocated U.S. 17 that we looked at last month).

But - VDOT management should have involved the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the U.S. EPA in project planning for this road from the very start, and it appears to me that they did not do that, and this big waste of money is the result.  Money that the Commonwealth cannot afford to blow.  And $250 million is a lot of money.

Not sure if the $250 million could have been reprogrammed into spot improvements or not.  But it could probably have been better spent on something else.

Like it or not, and no matter how much chest-thumping goes on about "state's rights," nothing is getting built (especially in a waterlogged area like the eastern end of the corridor) without that Section 404 (of the Clean Water Act) permit from the Corps.

[ixnay]

Per the official VDOT map, Norfolk Southern runs alongside 460 from Petersburg down to Windsor in Isle of Wight County, before 460 veers off to the left.  Is 460 a railfan's delight when it comes to getting good views of trains at speed (like Amtrak's daily Norfolk to NYC train)?

ixnay

[oscar]

Per the official VDOT map, Norfolk Southern runs alongside 460 from Petersburg down to Windsor in Isle of Wight County, before 460 veers off to the left.  Is 460 a railfan's delight when it comes to getting good views of trains at speed (like Amtrak's daily Norfolk to NYC train)?

I've been on various parts of 460 between Petersburg and Windsor several times, and have never seen a train on the line alongside.  It doesn't seem to be a busy line, either for passenger service (only one train per day in each direction between Norfolk and Petersburg) or for freight.

[Takumi]

I usually see one or two trains going there and back.

[cpzilliacus]

Bacon's Rebellion: Horse Gone, Search Ensues to Find Out Who Should Have Closed the Door

AP via WTOP Radio: Va. toll road could cost $500m, not be built

[skluth]

Upgrading 460 never has made sense. I lived in Tidewater from 03-07 and used it occasionally when I had spare time and wanted to avoid traffic. Expanding I-64 to eight lanes to Williamsburg then six lanes up to Richmond would both be cheaper and more effective. US460 just doesn't do much. I-64, US-58, and US-17 handle most of the traffic going NW, W, and SW of Hampton Roads. I'm glad it looks like it won't be upgraded.

[froggie]

Improving 460 makes sense....it has long been noted (especially from very shrill proponents of this 460 project) that the existing road is narrow and a bit dangerous, with no median, few left turn lanes, and lacking shoulders.  But the current proposal goes far above and beyond what's needed.

But that's what Virginia leaders at the time wanted.  In part because they could toll a new road much easier than the existing road, even though tolls don't even come close to paying for HALF of the project, let alone the full thing.  And it makes it easier for Virginia officials to use the PPTA to get the private sector to "chip in" and then claim victory that they're doing something about transportation, even though it still won't help the vast majority of Hampton Roads residents.

[ARMOURERERIC]

Frankly, when I lived there VA 10 was more used than 460, but that was because of 460's bad rep

[cpzilliacus]

Bacon's Rebellion: Feet-to-the-Fire Time for Layne, Kilpatrick

[skluth]

Improving 460 makes sense....it has long been noted (especially from very shrill proponents of this 460 project) that the existing road is narrow and a bit dangerous, with no median, few left turn lanes, and lacking shoulders.  But the current proposal goes far above and beyond what's needed.

But that's what Virginia leaders at the time wanted.  In part because they could toll a new road much easier than the existing road, even though tolls don't even come close to paying for HALF of the project, let alone the full thing.  And it makes it easier for Virginia officials to use the PPTA to get the private sector to "chip in" and then claim victory that they're doing something about transportation, even though it still won't help the vast majority of Hampton Roads residents.

You are correct that parts of 460 should be improved, especially the section from Suffolk to Windsor which should have a median and dedicated left turns for the entire stretch. But fixing that section and adding dedicated left turns at busy intersections is all that is needed west of Windsor. I agree it also could use shoulders, but Virginia has plenty of four lane roads without shoulders. It's not the greatest road, but it's really not that busy from Windsor to Petersburg.

[amroad17]

US 460 has some traffic between Suffolk and Petersburg, but building a freeway/toll road would more than likely kill off these smaller cities/towns.  That being said, US 460 does need some improvements in places.  The highway, as it currently is, is unsafe.  It has narrow lanes and hardly any "dedicated" left turns.  However, I would rather travel on US 460 from the Richmond/Petersburg area to Hampton Roads than travel on I-64.  Much less traffic.  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield.

[Thing 342]

US 460 has some traffic between Suffolk and Petersburg, but building a freeway/toll road would more than likely kill off these smaller cities/towns.  That being said, US 460 does need some improvements in places.  The highway, as it currently is, is unsafe.  It has narrow lanes and hardly any "dedicated" left turns.  However, I would rather travel on US 460 from the Richmond/Petersburg area to Hampton Roads than travel on I-64.  Much less traffic.  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield.

Building anything with a speed limit higher than 35 will kill them off, or at least make the town governments completely insolvent.   

[froggie]

Not really.  Several of those towns (specifically Windsor, Wakefield, and Waverly) have industry or businesses that will prevent them from "dying off".

[skluth]

  Plus I can stop at the Virginia Diner in Wakefield.

I miss the Virginia Diner.

[cpzilliacus]

Not really.  Several of those towns (specifically Windsor, Wakefield, and Waverly) have industry or businesses that will prevent them from "dying off".

Isn't the Shad Planking in Wakefield every Spring?

[cpzilliacus]

Bacon's Rebellion: U.S. 460: Now We Know What Happened, We Just Don't Know Who Was Responsible

Transportation Secretary Aubrey Layne gave yesterday a detailed timeline of the events leading up to the suspension of work on the U.S. 460 Connector after the expenditure of nearly $300 million. "From a taxpayer standpoint, there is no good explanation for why we are here today,"  he told the Commonwealth Transportation Board at its May meeting.

I did not attend the meeting, so I provide no first-hand reporting, as I usually have on this issue. I rely here upon the reporting of  Cathy Grimes with the Daily News and a PowerPoint presentation bearing the name of Layne and Virginia Highway Commissioner Charlie Kilpatrick that is posted on the CTB website.

Without naming specific names, Layne placed blame yesterday on "the executive branch"  of the McDonnell administration for pushing the project forward despite warnings from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that the proposed route for the 55-mile, Interstate-quality highway would impact roughly 500 acres of wetlands.

[Mapmikey]

http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/statewide/2014/vdot_moving_forward_with73882.asp

VDOT announces it is moving forward on evaluating environmental impacts for 5 different alternatives for improving the US 460 corridor between Petersburg and Suffolk.  The FWHA and Army Corps of Engineers will be working with VDOT.  Reports are supposed to be available to the public in the fall.

Impetus for improvements: "...improve transportation and safety, provide a faster hurricane evacuation route, enhance movement for trucks coming from the Port of Virginia, improve connectivity for the military and create job and economic opportunities on the Route 460 corridor in southeastern Virginia"

Here are the 5 alternatives being looked at:

Alternative 1: A four-lane tolled road that runs south of the existing Route 460; identified as the preferred alternative in the original Environmental Impact Statement.

Alternative 2: A four-lane road that runs along the existing Route 460, including six bypasses around the existing towns. The bypasses will be evaluated as both tolled and not tolled.

Alternative 3: A four-lane tolled road that runs north of the existing Route 460; identified as CBA-3 in the original Environmental Impact Statement.

Alternative 4:  The existing Route 460 would be rebuilt to meet standards for pavement, medians, shoulders, and intersections.

Alternative 5: An eight-lane road that follows a corridor similar to Alternative 2. Four of the eight lanes (two eastbound, two westbound) are tolled as in Alternatives 1 or 3. The remaining four lanes are untolled local roads with an eastbound and westbound lane on each side of the tolled road. At the bypasses, the local lanes merge onto existing Route 460 through the towns and the tolled lanes follow the bypass route.

Alternative 5 would be just like TX 130 (without the 85 mph speed limit) and US 183's relationship.  Also this would require a lot of accommodation (i.e. overpasses) for multiple U-turns along the route as there are innumerable driveway accesses throughout the whole length.

A mix of alternatives 2 and 4 seem like the most balanced approach to this corridor to me...

Mapmikey

[froggie]

Between swampland and a lot of areas outside the towns where buildings are close to the roadway, I don't see Alternative 5 getting any traction.

Agree that a mix of 2 and 4 is the best bet.

[amroad17]

IIRC, driving on US 460 through Windsor, Wakefield, Ivor, and Waverly was not much of a problem--probably because of the 35 mph limit.  The problem is between the towns where the speed limit is 55 on a narrow, four-lane footprint with no "dedicated" left turn lanes.  If US 460 could be widened about 10 feet on each side in these areas, and improve on the intersections, it would make the road much safer (following alternative 4).

Alternative 2 would also be an excellent option, especially for those drivers who do not like slowing down to go through these towns.