Dallas: I-345

[Bobby5280]

You need to look again and think again! You are probably thinking about US-59 / I-69 in HOUSTON. WHile it is not pedestrian friendly, there are no fences. There are often ramps onto and off of the freeway that block pedestrians.

What do you call this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7810541,-96.7836843,3a,75y,142.24h,91.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG1MYf4v0Bn9MTMqRoHglAQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Or this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7816337,-96.7843643,3a,75y,234.36h,98.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv7lH_wCWVaDk5iNli8Qy7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

Or this?
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7829535,-96.7881026,3a,75y,122.97h,77.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQ-K5tF6cs_WbBEMIHjmf3g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?authuser=0&entry=ttu

There is a lot of fences and other obstacles for crossing under the existing elevated I-345 freeway. I've seen it for myself in person. Most people on foot (or on a bike) will be crossing alongside surface streets.

By crime avoidance, I assume we are talking about HOMELESS avoidance.

Yeah, that would be part of it. But pedestrian and bicycle crossings that are going over the top of a freeway will be easier to monitor with surveillance cameras and other tools. And, yeah, there won't be any places for homeless people to set up encampments. I do not have a cold heart towards unhoused people. Real substantial, compassionate things need to be done to help those in need. I don't think it is acceptable to just treat those people as human trash and forget them in places like the undersides of highway overpasses.

[bwana39]

I agree fully that we need a better cohesive plan to deal with our poverty problems especially the homeless. My point is that getting rid of the area beneath the elevated bridges does nothing to fix the problem of homelessness, it just moves the problem to somewhere else.

Back to the fences. I am going to concede I started at the northern reaches of the proposed project at Woodall Rodgers. Between SS-366 and Elm Street,there are no fences. I really didn't dig very hard south of there.  South of Main, you are correct there are fences.

I went and looked at Klyde Warren Park. Within the streets / frontage roads it is indeed walkable. It has virtually zero access except at the cross streets from either downtown or midtown. I will agree, with the caps, it is a more inviting space.

The proposed trench east of downtown if it is capped, will be better than what is there. Hopefully, $1,500,000,000 or more better.

WHile the sidewalks under the freeway could be better, EVERY cross street currently is connected under I-345 / US-75 elevated. It doesn't seem to be the case with the proposal.

[05danper42842]

   Hey Guys meeting materials for the I 345 Meeting March 19 were recently uploaded a few minutes ago.
https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/projects/interstate-highways/i345

[Henry]

I just saw the YouTube clips of the project, and it is one of the best presentations I've ever seen!

[Bobby5280]

If the highway is built as depicted in the YouTube video there will be plenty of access for pedestrians to cross over the highway. It looks like every street crossing over the trenched freeway will have protected sidewalks for pedestrians and even a good bit of dedicated bicycle paths. The street crossings are spaced fairly close together too. Any added deck parks will just sweeten the deal for walk-ability.

The only downside is pedestrian/bike access across the I-345 corridor may be greatly limited during the construction process. The finished product looks like it will be worth the few years of pain.

[bwana39]

If the highway is built as depicted in the YouTube video there will be plenty of access for pedestrians to cross over the highway. It looks like every street crossing over the trenched freeway will have protected sidewalks for pedestrians and even a good bit of dedicated bicycle paths. The street crossings are spaced fairly close together too. Any added deck parks will just sweeten the deal for walk-ability.

The only downside is pedestrian/bike access across the I-345 corridor may be greatly limited during the construction process. The finished product looks like it will be worth the few years of pain.

Don't forget those 11' sound curtains at ground level!

[BJ59]

It kind of reminds me of US-75 from Downtown to Loop 12. Its very interesting how there are traffic signal intersections of the city streets built on top of the freeway.

Also I noticed how there are 2 ramps connecting Woodall Rogers Freeway (SH-366) to I-345 southbound. One of them immediately connects to the right lanes of I-345 and has access to both I-30 ramps from southbound I-345. The other lane comes in to the left of the I-345 mainlanes and is separated by barriers until after the I-30 exit ramps. Is this meant for traffic coming off of SH-366 that wants to bypass any traffic built up from the I-30 interchange?

[Plutonic Panda]

If the highway is built as depicted in the YouTube video there will be plenty of access for pedestrians to cross over the highway. It looks like every street crossing over the trenched freeway will have protected sidewalks for pedestrians and even a good bit of dedicated bicycle paths. The street crossings are spaced fairly close together too. Any added deck parks will just sweeten the deal for walk-ability.

The only downside is pedestrian/bike access across the I-345 corridor may be greatly limited during the construction process. The finished product looks like it will be worth the few years of pain.

And not only that, but if some deep pocketed philanthropist came through, who had interest in doing this, they could completely cap off those sections and create and effective tunnel. Wouldn't be cheap but I'm sure if this mystery person put up enough money the city probably would pitch as well.

[bwana39]

While it is mostly behind a paywall, here is news on paying for the caps.

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2024/03/13/feds-grant-80m-for-highway-caps-north-texas.html

[Bobby5280]

It kind of reminds me of US-75 from Downtown to Loop 12.

This re-build of I-345 will only be similar to North Central Expressway by being built down in a trench. The bridge crossings between downtown and Deep Ellum will be more densely packed and more complex in design. That's without factoring in possible caps in one or more places. It should be a pretty interesting looking highway design once it is finished.

One thing the YouTube video does not show is possible "green-scape" enhancements -bushes, trees and other landscaping features to partially hide the freeway from the upper street level. The depressed South section of North Central Expressway doesn't have much in the way of landscaping features on its overhead street crossings. But the expansion of North Central started back in the early 1990's and was completed 25 years ago. Some highway design trends have changed a bit during the years since.

[05danper42842]

The Draft Environmental Assessment for the  I-345 Project is up for viewing in person and online!
It would be interesting how the Interchange for I-345 and I-30 would look like now that I-345 will be fully underground and I-30 will be also maintaining is canyon feature and extending is canyon to the East past the Interchange.

https://www.keepitmovingdallas.com/public-hearings/2025/notice-of-draft-environmental-assessment-and-public-hearing-i-345-connects-from

[nolia_boi504]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why is this called I-345, and not I-45? This is not a spur off a 2DI -- it is a continuation.

Also, US-75 should be converted to I-45 atleast through McKinney, if not to the OK state line (making it a true "interstate").

[ZLoth]

Also, US-75 should be converted to I-45 atleast through McKinney, if not to the OK state line (making it a true "interstate").

I opened this can of worms in US-75 in Texas should be renamed to Interstate 45. The thread quickly expanded to Oklahoma as well.

[The Ghostbuster]

When the reconstructed Interstate 345 is completed, how likely will the new roadway be capped as well? I wouldn't be surprised if they do to 345 what they did with the Kyle Warren Park that was built over TX Spur 366.

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't think there's any real incentive for Texas to extend the I-45 designation unless Oklahoma pushed for it. Personally, I would've thought that would've made more sense for the state to push than a US-412 interstate designation. But I guess Tulsa is more closely aligned with Northwest Arkansas and it is with Dallas or Texas. I could be wrong, but that's the only sort of logic I can come up with.

Realistically, has there ever been any indication that Oklahoma has ever been interested in having I-45 extended?

[The Ghostbuster]

Outside of 1991's ISTEA, the answer is no. It's just like the prospect of extending Interstate 76 eastward along NJ 42 and the Atlantic City Expressway: If it was going to happen, it would have happened by now. As logical as it would be to extend both Interstates 45 and 76, there isn't any will to do so.

[MaxConcrete]

When the reconstructed Interstate 345 is completed, how likely will the new roadway be capped as well? I wouldn't be surprised if they do to 345 what they did with the Kyle Warren Park that was built over TX Spur 366.

Potential capping areas

However, I think all those potential caps are very long term. I don't think any are high priority. Dallas is struggling just to get the Klyde Warren park extension built (on top of Woodall Rodgers Freeway). There's also phase 2 of the I-35E south cap (at the zoo) which I believe is still unfunded, and also aspirations to build a cap over I-30 on the south side of downtown.

[MaxConcrete]

It would be interesting how the Interchange for I-345 and I-30 would look like now that I-345 will be fully underground and I-30 will be also maintaining is canyon feature and extending is canyon to the East past the Interchange.

See the schematic.

The new interchange appears to be a five-level design, but could be a four-level design if the I-30 frontage roads drop below ground level (to the main lanes level).

[Bobby5280]

That's a fairly hefty PDF (over 50MB in file size). Too bad the highway sign renderings had the typeface set in crappy default Arial rather than Series Gothic or Clearview.

Regarding deck caps over the re-built I-345, they might be nice, but I don't think they seem very necessary when the price tag is going to be so high. Numerous street connections will be built over the new freeway and most of them look like they'll have sidewalks incorporated into the designs. The end result will be more walk-able than the current setup.

[bwana39]

That's a fairly hefty PDF (over 50MB in file size). Too bad the highway sign renderings had the typeface set in crappy default Arial rather than Series Gothic or Clearview.

Regarding deck caps over the re-built I-345, they might be nice, but I don't think they seem very necessary when the price tag is going to be so high. Numerous street connections will be built over the new freeway and most of them look like they'll have sidewalks incorporated into the designs. The end result will be more walk-able than the current setup.

I have waded into this before. walkable being a place where it is inviting to walk as opposed to a place where there are adequate sidewalks for walking.  There are more cross streets (all with sidewalks) in the current configuration than there are in the proposal for this new road. Leaving the current setup and building BETTER sidewalks and BETTER lighting would probably enhance safety in a similar manner.  Since they are replacing the freeway anyway, I do see the walkability improvements being part of it. Either way, as long as the current business buildings are where they are, you still will walk away from the freeway into a less than stellar environment. The whole point is not to have downtown become more adjacent with deep elum / ross areas, but to make less emotional disconnect due to the freeway so that downtown can expand past the freeway. Expand as in displace / replace. The new freeway will preserve nothing. It will restore nothing. It will make the land east of the freeway more valuable so it will be affordable to buy up and tear down what is there to build towers and PERHAPS some greenways.

[bwana39]

I just saw the YouTube clips of the project, and it is one of the best presentations I've ever seen!

Yeah but just like restaurant commercials, it looks pretty; but how is the food?

[bwana39]

Please forgive my ignorance, but why is this called I-345, and not I-45? This is not a spur off a 2DI -- it is a continuation.

Also, US-75 should be converted to I-45 atleast through McKinney, if not to the OK state line (making it a true "interstate").

Until the replacement discussions only the MOST ardent road geek knew anything about I-345. It was labeled as US-75 or as To I-45 SB and as to US-75 NB. There still are no I-345 signs. 

Back in the 1960's the thought was that I-45 would follow I-30 to TX-114 to US-287 and US-287 to at least I-44 or perhaps even I-40 in Amarillo. In the 2020's we see I-345 clearly as a continuation of I-45, at he time it was just a spur bridging I-30 ( the then and current technical end of I-45) to the freeway portion of Central Expressway (US-75) north of downtown Dallas.

Why the hidden I-345 designation. Back then, there were funds designated for INTERSTATE highway funding exclusively. As an Interstate funded highway, it had to have an Interstate Highway number. so it was technically I-345 even though there was no marking whatsoever. It was marked as (only) US-75 to avoid any confusion as there was at that point a US-75 concurrency for the entirety of I-45.

There was also a preference that all the 2 digit interstates begin and end at another interstate. This has not come to pass, but in the 1960's it was the goal

[Molandfreak]

Back in the 1960's the thought was that I-45 would follow I-30 to TX-114 to US-287 and US-287 to at least I-44 or perhaps even I-40 in Amarillo. In the 2020's we see I-345 clearly as a continuation of I-45, at he time it was just a spur bridging I-30 ( the then and current technical end of I-45) to the freeway portion of Central Expressway (US-75) north of downtown Dallas.

Source? I-44 didn't exist in Texas until the 1980s.

[Bobby5280]

I have waded into this before. walkable being a place where it is inviting to walk as opposed to a place where there are adequate sidewalks for walking. There are more cross streets (all with sidewalks) in the current configuration than there are in the proposal for this new road.

There may technically be more cross streets with sidewalks in the current setup, but I definitely would not call the existing setup more walk-able than what is proposed. The old elevated freeway structure is dark and imposing. Even with improved lighting it still looks like a great place to get mugged after dark. The existing sidewalks are narrow and often weave around bridge pillars. Some of the sidewalks have blind spots due to trees and other obstructions. Surface intersections like Canton and Good-Latimer are kind of a mess.

The new surface street bridges over the new trenched highway will have far more sunlight. Sight lines will be far better for both vehicles and pedestrians. The new sidewalks will be wider and more modern in design. I don't know if TX DOT or Dallas city officials are planning any aesthetic enhancements to the bridges, such as adding any green landscaping or structures to hide the depressed freeway from view. Ultimately the end result is going to look a hell of a lot better and may do more to invigorate the Deep Ellum neighborhood.

[The Ghostbuster]

Would it have been better if Interstate 345 had been constructed as a depressed freeway to begin with? After all, US 75 north of TX Spur 366 is a depressed freeway up to Exit 6.