Update on I-69 Extension in Indiana

[vdeane]

If anyone thinks a highway is going to transform their rural area into suburbia they should travel the I-88 corridor in NY, which is no more developed than it was before I-88 was built.  Fact: if your area becomes suburbia, you chose it yourself, by voting to change the zoning laws to allow development.

[InterstateNG]

Geeks who like roads being built but who have never owned land should probably not opine on the matter.

I agree that he takes his opposition too far, but to suggest he shouldn't be upset about losing his property, or that he shouldn't be compensated for it, is asinine.

[hbelkins]

It's been my observation -- and in one case, personal experience -- that governments generally overpay for ROW needed for road construction. Add in the fact that they will also pay relocation costs if a new road takes your house and it's my considered opinion that landowners generally come out to the good in such scenarios.

[tdindy88]

If anyone thinks a highway is going to transform their rural area into suburbia they should travel the I-88 corridor in NY, which is no more developed than it was before I-88 was built.  Fact: if your area becomes suburbia, you chose it yourself, by voting to change the zoning laws to allow development.

Since there will be no exits along I-69 in that part of Monroe County (including Tom's property) it's safe to say there will be no suburban style development in that region. I'd imagine that a community like Bloomington is strict on zoning in the rural areas and that the only real suburban style development along I-69 in that county will be around Bloomington, and if anyone's been to SR 37 and SR 48 that is already a reality.

[Rick Powell]

If anyone thinks a highway is going to transform their rural area into suburbia they should travel the I-88 corridor in NY, which is no more developed than it was before I-88 was built.  Fact: if your area becomes suburbia, you chose it yourself, by voting to change the zoning laws to allow development.

Actually it takes a lot more than that.  I-80 exits 97 and 105, not too far west of the Chicago area, have literally nothing around them except a closed restaurant and a big storage building that used to be a Stuckey's.  And corn and soybean fields.  No services of any kind in the immediate area of the exits.  The exits were built in 1960, and the county containing Exit 97 had no zoning until 2006.  In my opinion, it was the lack of the nearby communities extending water, sewer and natural gas to the exit areas that inhibited any development, as well as the possibility that the land owners valued the adjacent land higher than prospective developers were willing to pay.  And there is also the demand for development that is either there or not, and doen't "automatically" follow the placement of a new highway. 

Exit 105 may finally get developed as a result of a rail/truck intermodal that is being developed on the CSX rail line a few miles to the south, but it's been in the works for 5 years with no dirt turned yet.

[theline]

I think I've mentioned this further up, but I wonder if CARR would have been founded if Tom's property wasn't threatened by I-69's construction. Was the founding of CARR something out of his actual love for the enviroment, or self-preservation?

My recollection of Matt Dellinger's well-researched book on the subject, Tom registered his objection to the project before the definition of the alternative corridors, much less the selection of the one running through his property. Of course, he had a long history of protesting projects that he thought would despoil the country, so his opposition here was to be expected. I have little doubt that the final route selection through his back yard influenced his perseverance. NIMBY indeed!

[vdeane]

It would be ironic if his back yard was targeted for the routing because he's such a NIMBY.

[hoosierguy]

I usually find that these 'environmentalist' types are supremely hypocritical, in that they live on (so called) 'pristine' property that is far out from where they work and do everything else and drive the heaviest sooves to travel between them.

I recall back in the early-mid 1990s, while I was idly browsing the magazine racks at the Appleton Pvblic Library one afternoon, I found a copy of one of those enviro-whacko journals, picked it up from the rack, opened it and right there on the inside of the front cover was a multi-page foldout ad for the biggest soove on the market at that time.



Mike

Right, so that somehow makes the substance of the message of the environmentalist movement invalid if you can somehow make them out to be "hypocrites" as if polluted air, water, soil, and global climate change will magically cease to exist.

The pavement worshippers on this site make me sick. Just pave everything. Who cares that this road was given approval using intentionally outdated air quality figures?

[hoosierguy]

Bloomington is run by a bunch of IU idiots. (I'm not joking.) They want to fight something just to fight it. Once I 69 goes through Bloomington everyone there will fall in love with it.

Bloomington is a far nicer, tolerant, and diverse place because it is run by "idiots." You can keep your cesspool dump Terre Haute with its precious interstate access.

The local politicians are OVERWHELMINGLY elected by the public so it is more than safe to say their views reflect those of the citizenry. Why can't a pro I-69 politician get elected in Bloomington? You can't explain that.

[hbelkins]

The pavement worshippers on this site make me sick.

Uh, this is a roads site.

Bloomington is a far nicer, tolerant, and diverse place because it is run by "idiots." You can keep your cesspool dump Terre Haute with its precious interstate access.

The local politicians are OVERWHELMINGLY elected by the public so it is more than safe to say their views reflect those of the citizenry. Why can't a pro I-69 politician get elected in Bloomington? You can't explain that.

Bloomington is just a pimple on the ass of the rest of the state that wants -- and in the case of the areas to the south and west of it, needs -- this road. If the people there want to fight traffic lights and surface traffic on 37 when they try to go to Indianapolis, they shouldn't be able to dictate to the rest of the people between Indy and Evansville that they have to put up with the same nonsense.

[NE2]

The pavement worshippers on this site make me sick.

Uh, this is a roads site.

Which doesn't mean all its members must be idiots. Some of us actually realize that the current default policy of building more roads is getting us fucked in the ass.

Swearing is allowed. Name-calling, especially in terms of politics, is not. Don't make it personal.

[3467]

I have no problem with roads. but building raods for the sake of it no way. I have long ranted about the stupidity around US 20 in Illinois and I generally support I-69 esp. this segment
In Illinois the legislature has been voting on various pension cutting schemes even when the Constituation says no and the Democratic Senate leader said hed rather spend money on roads.....The pension cutting fever has spread to Kentucky now . I hope hbelkins gets his pension. Anyway i am veeering off topic. There is a pension thread I started because it is an important issue to our DOT employees

[Anthony_JK]

I usually find that these 'environmentalist' types are supremely hypocritical, in that they live on (so called) 'pristine' property that is far out from where they work and do everything else and drive the heaviest sooves to travel between them.

I recall back in the early-mid 1990s, while I was idly browsing the magazine racks at the Appleton Pvblic Library one afternoon, I found a copy of one of those enviro-whacko journals, picked it up from the rack, opened it and right there on the inside of the front cover was a multi-page foldout ad for the biggest soove on the market at that time.



Mike

Right, so that somehow makes the substance of the message of the environmentalist movement invalid if you can somehow make them out to be "hypocrites" as if polluted air, water, soil, and global climate change will magically cease to exist.

The pavement worshippers on this site make me sick. Just pave everything. Who cares that this road was given approval using intentionally outdated air quality figures?

Ummmm....not all members of this forum are right-wing "smother everything with concrete" neanderthals; and just because you don't like the road doesn't give you the right to demonize those who do for their own reasons.

You may talk all you want about how terrible this road may be, but the people and politicians of Indiana have spoken enough about this road to build nearly half of it....and it's probably better to simply end this madness of absolutism and work to make the finished project as environmentally friendly and effective as it can be.

For the record, I may be the most politically left-wing participant in this forum, and I sympathize with the overall goals of enviromnentalists who have legitimate concerns about protecting resources and people. But, there comes a time when good intentions cross the line into simple blind myopia...and Bloomington's war against I-69 has long since passed that line.

[3467]

I amy be close to you left wise Anthony and I do enjoy NE2s humor but this strech of 1-69 has been studied for maybe 50 years long before 1-69 and CARR and Bloomington did exercise their rights druing the EIS and their suits over NEPA and the ESA. I support those rights and reveiw There sould not be knee jerk response against regulations. They do take time but they help our system by preventing Malinvestment (google Ghost cities of China)But here CARR did raise serious issues and the judge that reveiwed them gave a serious response esp in RE The Indiana bat,while WNS has changed and will change things some in the future . I  69 will not endanger any species and that is good.
At this point Bloomington is whining about an already 4 lane bypass that has nneded work for 30 years
What needs focus is revsing states like Illinois with 15-20 billion in fanatsy roads when it has 80 Billion in infunded pension debt and a total of 120 billion of debt.
Sanity says that something like Missouri's 2+1 makes more sense

[Alex]

The extension of I-69 is one of the few new road projects that has any momentum in this country. Most other highway projects these days affect existing roadways for things like widening, straightening, short realignments, maintenance, replacement, etc. The concept of "paving over everything" applies more to commercial developers and housing builders. They deserve the angst, but rarely seem to get it...

[vtk]

The concept of "paving over everything" applies more to commercial developers

Most literally true of Walmart and other big boxes, with their hundred-acre parking lots.  Has anyone (protesters or zoning boards) asked Walmart to build a 3-level parking structure and public greenspace instead?

[NE2]

Has anyone (protesters or zoning boards) asked Walmart to build a 3-level parking structure and public greenspace instead?

There are several multi-story Walmarts due to zoning.
http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/local/walmart-gets-into-the-zone/article_fa78294e-d070-11e1-8070-001a4bcf887a.html

[JREwing78]

Madison, WI has one (as well as a multi-story Target).

[tdindy88]

Bloomington had a smaller Wal-Mart right at the SR 45/SR 37 (future I-69) interchange that also shared the space with Sam's Club. Of course, Wal-Mart HAD to build a new store at the intersection with SR 45 and Curry Pike, abandoning their previous property and building a store with a larger footprint (and a gas station!) So yeah, Bloomington is really dedicated to preventing this kind of development.

Since Google still hasn't updated imagry for the city since 2005 (before the store was built) here's the Bing imagary of the site.

http://binged.it/15IK8SF

And for anyone really worried about the potential sprawl that I-69 would bring to B-Town, just pan north of that image and look at the well-planned area of SR 48 and SR 37.

[hbelkins]

Swearing is allowed. Name-calling, especially in terms of politics, is not. Don't make it personal.

It is?

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=992.0

What's not allowed:
...
Pointless cursing.

[vtk]

I wouldn't say NE2's cursing was pointless, or done for shock value.  When someone of this generation feels that way about something, that's quite natural language to use to convey that concern.  It could be put more politely, but that might dull the message and/or sound uncharacteristic of the speaker.  I, on the other hand, am comfortable using many polite words where a few vulgar ones would suffice – in writing, anyway.

[NE2]

My bad. I meant to say it's getting us fought in the Alps.

[Rick Powell]

The extension of I-69 is one of the few new road projects that has any momentum in this country. Most other highway projects these days affect existing roadways for things like widening, straightening, short realignments, maintenance, replacement, etc. The concept of "paving over everything" applies more to commercial developers and housing builders. They deserve the angst, but rarely seem to get it...

It is generally recognized that there will be few new "greenfield" highway projects in this country in this century. I was part of the golden era of legacy interstate highway construction, working on the original construction of I-55 in IL as a teenager.  I also worked on a rail transit extension not much later...what is now the Metra Electric extension to University Park.  I have continued to work on highway and rail projects through my current career.  The process for planning and designing any large "public works" project on new alignment is much more deliberate and expensive than it used to be, and affects all modes including the high speed rail projects being pursued as well as the new alignment highways that are in planning.  Having also worked with developers (mostly in a permit review mode) the private development process is a little more deliberate than it used to be, but has not expanded nearly as much as for the public sector projects.  It is fair to say that public involvement is a greater part of both sectors' development processes than in years past, although private development focuses more on positive PR while public development strives more for input and inclusion. 

[thefro]

INDOT takes the CARR Founders to court

http://indianapublicmedia.org/news/tokarskis-argue-court-access-land-47481/

INDOT officials are seeking what is known as a writ of assistance to help keep Tom and Sandra Tokarski off land they previously owned through which contractors are building I-69. The couple is allowed on adjacent land, but not on the road's right-of-way or on an easement next to the road's path.

They allege they're not only allowed to be on the land, but they need to be there to keep contractors from fouling the environment. In court Tuesday, lawyers for the state sought to show the area is dangerous because of the heavy machinery operating there and the changing topography of the area — both of which can cause liability issues for the state and imminent danger to any visitors.

But the Tokarskis' lawyer Rudolph Savich says he thinks that argument is a smoke screen generated after the couple filed a complaint with the Indiana Department of Environmental Management about polluted runoff at the site.

"It never became an issue until they got a complaint from IDEM about the lack of erosion control.  It seems to me fairly obvious that the true reason for this write of assistance to keep the Tokarskis off their property was to keep them from being able to document these environmental violations and not the Tokarskis' or anybody else's safety."

While on the stand, Tom Tokarski was asked about a state statute which says it's illegal to interfere with state work. "If telling the truth is interfering with their work,"  he responded, "Then I guess we're guilty."

Savich says he believes the case will be appealed no matter how judge Francie Hill rules.  That ruling could come in the next couple weeks. A trial has tentatively been scheduled for April of next year after attorneys for both sides agreed mediation was unlikely to succeed. Lawyers for the state repeatedly declined comment Tuesday.

[mukade]

The last contract for section 4 was finally awarded.

March 20, 2013 Special Letting Results