Anderson Economic Group recently reported recently that the energy cost of driving a [mid-sized] electric vehicle had increased to an average of $11.60 per 100 miles, which became higher than the comparative fuel cost of driving a [mid-sized] vehicle with an internal combustion engine. In comparison, the ICE fuel usage worked out to an average of $11.29 per 100 miles. Quite frankly, I wasn't aware that EV charging had ever been less expensive than gasoline (even with the huge increases in gasoline prices since early-2021). The first article that I saw wasn't much, so I found this one: https://carbuzz.com/news/ev-charging-prices-rise-above-ice-fueling-costs-for-first-time-in-18-months
This article mentions that high-end auto EV manufacturers have a much better comparison to their ICE counterparts. I'm sure that fuel economy is not one of Maserati's or Lamborghini's strong suits.
There are a bunch of related threads here, but it didn't make sense to bump the main EV thread that hasn't been used since 2010.
EVs (last 2010): https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3575.msg79182#msg79182
Purchasing an EV (last January 2022): https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=30698.msg2690464#msg2690464
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
I am considering a hybrid for my one; perhaps the Toyota Prius, unless another brand produces a hybrid in the next few years. Personally, I though the Hybrid-powered should have gained steam nearly a half-century ago, and would have been the next step towards the making of an EV.
I think they were using charging costs from outside one's home, which is an entirely fair comparison, since most people can't refine fuel at home. Apples to apples. But it's a mostly incompatible and imbalanced comparison with most EV usage; people charge their vehicles from home, where they pay significantly less per kilowatt/hour than away from home. And at this time, lots of free places to charge up, if one can find them and deal with wait times. Until the Mr. Fusion hits the market, there's no free alternative for internal combustion engines, short of throwing the gearbox in neutral and rolling downhill.
For me the varied cost of charging infrastructure and the sometimes severe lack of charging stations are just reasons to kick this EV purchase can two-three new drivers down the road.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
Most early adopters of EVs in Europe drive them as a business lease, so price of both the vehicle as well as charging is not really a consideration, while it is much more significant for private buyers.
Having a driveway is not as common in Europe (though varies heavily by country), and is more likely to be associated with upper class households. This is why private adoption of EVs is still pretty niche, with Norway being the main exception. But their far higher nominal incomes overcome that barrier.
The Netherlands has one of the highest shares of electric vehicles in Europe (3.5% of all passenger cars), but private ownership of EVs is still only around 0.1% of all passenger cars.
For me, the big problem with lack of home charging wouldn't be the cost, but rather the inconvenience of having to go and sit at a charger. Chargers are fine when they can be timed with stops for food or bathroom breaks while on the road, but having to stop specifically to charge and nothing else does not sound fun, given how long it takes. Plus there's the extra wear on the battery to consider.
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Trouble is that not many of those types of charging stations exist yet. EV users fight almost daily over our four charging ports at our gas station on base. Imagine how much people would fight over a limited number of street side charging ports in a big city?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Trouble is that not many of those types of charging stations exist yet. EV users fight almost daily over our four charging ports at our gas station on base. Imagine how much people would fight over a limited number of street side charging ports in a big city?
And how often they might be vandalized.
Here where I live, they're everywhere. Most Stop & Shops have them. Malls have them. Office complexes have them, although I don't know if they're available for everyone or only the employees of that company. A recent plaza with a Starbucks and a veterinary hospital (and possibly more that hasn't been built yet) has about eight of them.
One thing conveniently missing here is $0.02 per mile of gas taxes (NY rate)
Maintenance can be another interesting question to address
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
One thing conveniently missing here is $0.02 per mile of gas taxes (NY rate)
Maintenance can be another interesting question to address
If you lease or don't intend to hang onto an EV through it's service life then maintenance costs can become a huge potential savings. Oil changes and regular maintenance items on an ICE can add up fairly quickly. You still have to do basic stuff in an EV like replace tires and brakes. This is of course assumes you don't lose something major in an out of warranty situation like a battery sled.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 02:55:37 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 02:52:07 PM
One thing conveniently missing here is $0.02 per mile of gas taxes (NY rate)
Maintenance can be another interesting question to address
If you lease or don't intend to hang onto an EV through it's service life then maintenance costs can become a huge potential savings. Oil changes and regular maintenance items on an ICE can add up fairly quickly. You still have to do basic stuff in an EV like replace tires and brakes. This is of course assumes you don't lose something major in an out of warranty situation like a battery sled.
There are no miracles, buck will need to stop somewhere.
If lessors figure out they are left with dead batteries, they will have to bake that into the lease. Same with resale value..
Imagine living somewhere where you have a 30 cent/kwh electricity rate and yet drive a car that gets 32-42 MPG. Those numbers in the OP even go way farther out of whack in it.
Looking it up, in 6.5 years/83K miles on my 2016 Mazda3 I've had $1500 in maintenance that would likely not exist on an EV, a cost of roughly $20/month.
Quote from: Rothman on January 30, 2023, 02:02:03 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Trouble is that not many of those types of charging stations exist yet. EV users fight almost daily over our four charging ports at our gas station on base. Imagine how much people would fight over a limited number of street side charging ports in a big city?
And how often they might be vandalized.
It's hard enough finding a working tire compressor sometimes. There presently seems to be an equal amount of charging stations and tire compressors near me in Fresno. Those aren't odds I'd like for finding a reliable energy source if I was an EV owner (granted I do have a house).
Quote from: Rothman on January 30, 2023, 02:02:03 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Trouble is that not many of those types of charging stations exist yet. EV users fight almost daily over our four charging ports at our gas station on base. Imagine how much people would fight over a limited number of street side charging ports in a big city?
And how often they might be vandalized.
Not to mention that ICE drivers will also park in those spots and prevent EV drivers from parking there in the first place.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
I assume these are operated commercially, and thus charge a higher rate than if you would charge from a wallbox at home. Which means the per mile cost is higher.
I don't know if this is an issue in the U.S., but in the Netherlands there is a huge labor shortage, especially for technical professions like charging station installers. And on top of that, the electricity grid is so choked up that they can't install more charging stations, add more solar panels or approve commercial electricity connections.
We're supposed to have a drastic energy transition, but the energy grid is chocked up / gridlocked while we only just started. And the colossal cost of upgrading the grid has to be reflected in the electricity price somehow. I wonder if that is an issue over there.
Seattle and Tacoma have been installing curbside Level 2 chargers for a few months now, but some have been pried open for their copper (https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/copper-thieves-have-new-target-electric-vehicle-charging-stations/635DX4LIGVASVOLWBKKAJBUUAY/).
I have roadtripped a fair amount with my friend's Tesla and we have only found a handful of non-working chargers out of dozens of stations visited. I do wonder what Tesla is doing right given their awful record on maintenance and build quality for their vehicles.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 03:53:24 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 30, 2023, 02:02:03 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 01:36:32 PM
Quote from: Chris on January 30, 2023, 09:07:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 29, 2023, 11:06:13 PM
Obviously this is something that will vary a lot with the price of gas (which of course varies from city to city), as well as one's personal situation. A person who lives in an apartment is less likely to be able to charge their car at home, and thus will have to pay a premium to recharge, as opposed to someone who charges from home and pays nothing more than they would for any other ordinary kWh that comes out of the outlet.
This is a huge barrier to EV adoption in situations where people do not have their own driveway, but park in the street or in a lot, have to charge at a public charging station and pay a premium.
They have to?
Charging stations on a street in Baltimore for parallel parkers. https://goo.gl/maps/WC6bKzrRL3XqyBtR7 . And viewed from the side street: https://goo.gl/maps/r1aQTX5SLRzVkDea6 .
Trouble is that not many of those types of charging stations exist yet. EV users fight almost daily over our four charging ports at our gas station on base. Imagine how much people would fight over a limited number of street side charging ports in a big city?
And how often they might be vandalized.
It's hard enough finding a working tire compressor sometimes. There presently seems to be an equal amount of charging stations and tire compressors near me in Fresno. Those aren't odds I'd like for finding a reliable energy source if I was an EV owner (granted I do have a house).
There's Supply vs. Demand. Or Chicken before the Egg.
As EVs become more plentiful, so will charging stations. We've already seen that with Tesla chargers located along highways.
Gas stations have become more plentiful along highway interchanges over time. Imagine if we were to build an interstate system today and people will say "but there's no gas stations off the highway interchanges". Companies came in and built them. It's rare to see an interchange without a nearby gas station today, which is considerably different than the interstate landscape of the 1970's.
I'm not sure who owns those 2 charging stations or how much it costs to use them. But there's been many people saying people that don't have a driveway have to go to a parking lot to use them. So I present Exhibit A. Quickly, anti-EVers move the goalposts to, but, they'll be vandalized and they'll have ICE vehicles parking there. But the fact is the machines do exist.
We are constantly thinking of reasons why EVs shouldn't exist. I forget the number that are on the road now, but I think it's over 100k and growing. They exist, and in plentiful numbers. Whenever we see any issue, people act as if this was a problem never encountered before. Most likely EVs have been in such a condition; one simply had an issue. Happens with ICE vehicles all the time, but we're numb to it and blame it on driver error. With EVs, people are quick to blame it on car error.
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
For me, it is pretty hard to justify that some public property is treated that way. Of course, if those are on private property, things may be significantly different... But even then giving privileges to those who can afford more expensive vehicles is a good way to induce more strain in the society...
From the ones that I've seen, the electric vehicle chargers at the Mall at Rockingham Park in Salem NH are nowhere near the front. They're not prime parking spots. The ones at Stop & Shop in both North Andover MA and Amesbury MA are closer to prime parking; they're in the front row but halfway between the two entrances.
Quote from: 1 on January 30, 2023, 09:35:06 PM
From the ones that I've seen, the electric vehicle chargers at the Mall at Rockingham Park in Salem NH are nowhere near the front. They're not prime parking spots. The ones at Stop & Shop in both North Andover MA and Amesbury MA are closer to prime parking; they're in the front row but halfway between the two entrances.
Once we are talking about curbside parking, especially in residential areas - there is less of a "prime" location as there is no longer a single destination.
Store parking lots are already becoming too structured with disabled spots, pickup spots, EV spots, veterans spots, employee of the month etc etc.. The efficiency of space use also suffers from such.
Quote from: 1 on January 30, 2023, 09:35:06 PM
From the ones that I've seen, the electric vehicle chargers at the Mall at Rockingham Park in Salem NH are nowhere near the front. They're not prime parking spots. The ones at Stop & Shop in both North Andover MA and Amesbury MA are closer to prime parking; they're in the front row but halfway between the two entrances.
Depends on their purpose. Tesla chargers are normally a bit of a walk from the front door to deter people from loitering around the charging cars. The Volta chargers I see at grocery stores are normally at the very front or close to the entrance to encourage their use for short periods of time and increase turnover.
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
For me, it is pretty hard to justify that some public property is treated that way. Of course, if those are on private property, things may be significantly different... But even then giving privileges to those who can afford more expensive vehicles is a good way to induce more strain in the society...
If the government has decided that there is a public policy interest in promoting electric vehicle uptake, then parking restrictions only serve to reinforce that policy decision. Given that there are already tax incentives being offered to those that purchase electric vehicles, it seems reasonable to me.
(Full disclosure: I drive an ICE car, but would love to have an electric if I could afford one.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
For me, it is pretty hard to justify that some public property is treated that way. Of course, if those are on private property, things may be significantly different... But even then giving privileges to those who can afford more expensive vehicles is a good way to induce more strain in the society...
If the government has decided that there is a public policy interest in promoting electric vehicle uptake, then parking restrictions only serve to reinforce that policy decision. Given that there are already tax incentives being offered to those that purchase electric vehicles, it seems reasonable to me.
(Full disclosure: I drive an ICE car, but would love to have an electric if I could afford one.)
Sure, that is the justification. Is it a good one?
Social engineering can go only that far before people get irritated.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
Well, you need more than that. Is there a law or ordinance that permits towing? If on private property, is there a sign that states who will tow the car, where, and the various fees?
ICE vehicle drivers that park in a spot for EVs are being dicks, but a sign threatening towing where it can't be legally enforced is like many signs posted in the various threads on these here forums that have no bite to them.
ICE vehicle owners actually do this to themselves also. How many people see others walk away from their car at a gas pump to go inside the store to shop?
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 10:16:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
For me, it is pretty hard to justify that some public property is treated that way. Of course, if those are on private property, things may be significantly different... But even then giving privileges to those who can afford more expensive vehicles is a good way to induce more strain in the society...
If the government has decided that there is a public policy interest in promoting electric vehicle uptake, then parking restrictions only serve to reinforce that policy decision. Given that there are already tax incentives being offered to those that purchase electric vehicles, it seems reasonable to me.
(Full disclosure: I drive an ICE car, but would love to have an electric if I could afford one.)
Sure, that is the justification. Is it a good one?
Social engineering can go only that far before people get irritated.
For me it comes down just wanting an affordable car to drive daily that doesn't have a ton of compromises. Right now the EV market doesn't really anything super affordable that doesn't come with major compromises compared to an ICE. I can afford to buy more than entry level cars for daily driving sure. All the same, why would I ever waste money on such a disposable purchase like a daily driver? When the EV market gets the point where the prices are competitive and the compromises compared to ICE are minimal I'll likely buy one.
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
The new Prius Prime plug-in hybrid has a solar roof option to help with charging the battery. Don't know what the option costs or how well it works.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 10:16:38 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2023, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2023, 08:48:27 PM
If you have people parking ICE vehicles in front of electric chargers, you just need a sign:
ELECTRIC
VEHICLES
ONLY
ALL OTHERS WILL
BE TOWED AT
OWNER'S EXPENSE
For me, it is pretty hard to justify that some public property is treated that way. Of course, if those are on private property, things may be significantly different... But even then giving privileges to those who can afford more expensive vehicles is a good way to induce more strain in the society...
If the government has decided that there is a public policy interest in promoting electric vehicle uptake, then parking restrictions only serve to reinforce that policy decision. Given that there are already tax incentives being offered to those that purchase electric vehicles, it seems reasonable to me.
(Full disclosure: I drive an ICE car, but would love to have an electric if I could afford one.)
Sure, that is the justification. Is it a good one?
Social engineering can go only that far before people get irritated.
For me it comes down just wanting an affordable car to drive daily that doesn't have a ton of compromises. Right now the EV market doesn't really anything super affordable that doesn't come with major compromises compared to an ICE. I can afford to buy more than entry level cars for daily driving sure. All the same, why would I ever waste money on such a disposable purchase like a daily driver? When the EV market gets the point where the prices are competitive and the compromises compared to ICE are minimal I'll likely buy one.
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
And you assume that
Quote from: kernals12 on January 02, 2021, 09:07:34 AMwith extremely low cost solar power on the horizon
EV is what you need? What color would it be? Jade or jade?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
I wasn't aware of this trend. This is disconcerting since [first automobile acquisition cost] is one of the classic bellwethers of economic instability (another classic one that is on my radar is the replacement cost of central home HVAC). I don't see a lot of young Americans retreating to using motorcycles as their primary means of transportation.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 31, 2023, 11:22:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
I wasn't aware of this trend. This is disconcerting since [first automobile acquisition cost] is one of the classic bellwethers of economic instability (another classic one that is on my radar is the replacement cost of central home HVAC). I don't see a lot of young Americans retreating to using motorcycles as their primary means of transportation.
For many people, the incentives for owning a sub-compact or compact car are practically nonexistent when you don't live in a city.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
I can confirm this is also a thing in Europe. The average new car buyer is nearly 60 years old and they prefer higher seating. So there is a plethora of SUVs and crossovers, but the compact and sub-compact segment has dwindled. And small cars were traditionally very popular in Europe. Many carmakers have stopped selling city cars and the subcompact segment has shot up in price dramatically.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 31, 2023, 11:22:59 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
I wasn't aware of this trend. This is disconcerting since [first automobile acquisition cost] is one of the classic bellwethers of economic instability (another classic one that is on my radar is the replacement cost of central home HVAC). I don't see a lot of young Americans retreating to using motorcycles as their primary means of transportation.
I heard more than once that current generation is not that crazy about driving. More interested in city life, more online interactions, fewer entry level jobs for school age. Bicycles are also an option. Living in a dorm or within bus ride from college is also an option.
This translates into bigger cars for parents - and if you look at the traffic, suv seem the dominant type on the road...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 30, 2023, 10:23:40 PM
How many people see others walk away from their car at a gas pump to go inside the store to shop?
Oh, the scum of the Earth at a busy station. See this basically every trip Up North I take; an empty SUV with a giant trailer full of stupid ATV's blocking an entire lane at a busy-ass Twik Trip.
I will ALWAYS repark my vehicle after fueling if the place is even remotely busy. It's common courtesy!!
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
Quote from: Chris on January 31, 2023, 11:54:35 AM
I can confirm this is also a thing in Europe. The average new car buyer is nearly 60 years old and they prefer higher seating. So there is a plethora of SUVs and crossovers, but the compact and sub-compact segment has dwindled. And small cars were traditionally very popular in Europe. Many carmakers have stopped selling city cars and the subcompact segment has shot up in price dramatically.
This phenomenon was obvious in Holland when I worked at Schiphol Airport off-and-on from 1999 until 2003. The first time, most of the folks in the Amsterdam metro were driving smaller cars that were approaching 30 years old (many of them diesel Mercedes-Benz). It was amusing to watch them drive off to the Mediterranean for Summer holiday towing a small cargo trailer with these cars (we all know people who do this here in the States, but that is still a curiosity here). By 2003, it seemed like the majority of folks were then driving large sedans (many of them again Mercedes-Benz, and I didn't pay much attention to the fueling as they were no longer belching diesel fumes).
In this case, I didn't get the impression that this switchover was going to drive the automakers to dropping smaller cars from their lineup. In fact, the opposite seemed true as we were seeing automakers like Toyota roll out the ill-fated Scion label. I've seen the market here flip back-and-forth many times between small cars and bigger cars/trucks. But the demise of smaller cars at a time where money is tight for many folks (worldwide) is a big concern.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on January 31, 2023, 02:32:31 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 30, 2023, 11:07:01 PM
Worth noting, I seem to be something of an enthusiast for purchasing Sub-Compact and Compact cars. Both market segments are dying which for me is an even larger concern than anything related to EVs.
Quote from: Chris on January 31, 2023, 11:54:35 AM
I can confirm this is also a thing in Europe. The average new car buyer is nearly 60 years old and they prefer higher seating. So there is a plethora of SUVs and crossovers, but the compact and sub-compact segment has dwindled. And small cars were traditionally very popular in Europe. Many carmakers have stopped selling city cars and the subcompact segment has shot up in price dramatically.
This phenomenon was obvious in Holland when I worked at Schiphol Airport off-and-on from 1999 until 2003. The first time, most of the folks in the Amsterdam metro were driving smaller cars that were approaching 30 years old (many of them diesel Mercedes-Benz). It was amusing to watch them drive off to the Mediterranean for Summer holiday towing a small cargo trailer with these cars (we all know people who do this here in the States, but that is still a curiosity here). By 2003, it seemed like the majority of folks were then driving large sedans (many of them again Mercedes-Benz, and I didn't pay much attention to the fueling as they were no longer belching diesel fumes).
In this case, I didn't get the impression that this switchover was going to drive the automakers to dropping smaller cars from their lineup. In fact, the opposite seemed true as we were seeing automakers like Toyota roll out the ill-fated Scion label. I've seen the market here flip back-and-forth many times between small cars and bigger cars/trucks. But the demise of smaller cars at a time where money is tight for many folks (worldwide) is a big concern.
Every time I've visited family down in Mexico in recent years, I've been envious of the plethora of basic small cars. The Beat in particular (a rebadged older Spark) checked all the boxes for me with a manual transmission and under 10k USD price. The two airbags don't give me the same pause it seemed to induce in other forum users when I brought this up in another thread.