Carmakers like VW are bringing back buttons because drivers loathe all the touch

[jeffandnicole]

The Massachusetts drivers' road test prohibits backup cameras from even being in the car at all. You are required to use a car without one.

A nearly impossible feat since backup cameras have been required equipment in all new vehicles sold for the past 5 years, since May 1, 2018.

Per the below link, the car should "Not be equipped with "specialized features"  (such as backing sensors, back-up cameras, automatic parallel parking, etc.) that would prevent an applicant from truly showing his/her driving skills and abilities. A vehicle will be rejected unless its "specialized features"  can be turned-off or disabled and still be operated safely OR the road test examiner determines that the road test maneuvers can be performed without the assistance of the "specialized features."  "

Based on a quick review on the web, I'm thinking the "OR" part was recently added, as it's probably becoming more normal for vehicles to have these features.  States do have to remain current with the times.  It would be the same as saying a state requires a driver take a driving test in a vehicle without power steering or a manual transmission vehicle because they refuse to acknowledge new technology and requirements.

https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/03/21/RDT101%20-%20Class%20D%20and%20M%20Road%20Test%20Information%20Sheet.pdf

[Rothman]

The Massachusetts drivers' road test prohibits backup cameras from even being in the car at all. You are required to use a car without one.

A nearly impossible feat since backup cameras have been required equipment in all new vehicles sold for the past 5 years, since May 1, 2018.

Per the below link, the car should "Not be equipped with "specialized features"  (such as backing sensors, back-up cameras, automatic parallel parking, etc.) that would prevent an applicant from truly showing his/her driving skills and abilities. A vehicle will be rejected unless its "specialized features"  can be turned-off or disabled and still be operated safely OR the road test examiner determines that the road test maneuvers can be performed without the assistance of the "specialized features."  "

Based on a quick review on the web, I'm thinking the "OR" part was recently added, as it's probably becoming more normal for vehicles to have these features.  States do have to remain current with the times.  It would be the same as saying a state requires a driver take a driving test in a vehicle without power steering or a manual transmission vehicle because they refuse to acknowledge new technology and requirements.

https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2018/03/21/RDT101%20-%20Class%20D%20and%20M%20Road%20Test%20Information%20Sheet.pdf

See the video I posted above...

[hbelkins]

My general dislike for all that fancy stuff boils down mostly to cost. The truck I'm driving now doesn't have an airbag, I don't think. I don't think that all those costly add-ons (backup cameras, airbags out the wazoo, etc.) are worth the expense. Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

And did I mention cost? Who knows how much a replacement radio head unit costs when it doubles as a rearview cam, climate control center, etc.

I'm a firm believer in the fact that all these federal bureaucratic requirements just raise the price on vehicles without bringing substantial safety improvements along for the ride.

[kkt]

The Massachusetts drivers' road test prohibits backup cameras from even being in the car at all. You are required to use a car without one.

So you have to use a 10-year-old car for your driving test?  That's crazy.  You couldn't just put tape over the lens?

[thspfc]

That's a really dumb rule considering that people's issues with backing up almost always stem from simply not paying attention. It's not like turning around and looking out the window is some difficult foreign concept.

[Rothman]

The Massachusetts drivers' road test prohibits backup cameras from even being in the car at all. You are required to use a car without one.

So you have to use a 10-year-old car for your driving test?  That's crazy.  You couldn't just put tape over the lens?

That's a really dumb rule considering that people's issues with backing up almost always stem from simply not paying attention. It's not like turning around and looking out the window is some difficult foreign concept.

See the RMV video I posted above...

[thspfc]

The right hand on the passenger seat  . I remember both my parents and my driving instructor making a point of that. With the way it's talked about you'd think that the back window is blacked out until you put your hand on the seat.

[Scott5114]

Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

We should shut down the forum because it's making everyone more dependent on their keyboards and less dependent on their own handwriting and envelope-addressing abilities.

[thspfc]

Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

We should shut down the forum because it's making everyone more dependent on their keyboards and less dependent on their own handwriting and envelope-addressing abilities.

Plus, I seriously don't understand what the "ability"  is here. Backing a car is not difficult. Accidents when backing happen due to negligence issues, not skill issues.

[abefroman329]

Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

We should shut down the forum because it's making everyone more dependent on their keyboards and less dependent on their own handwriting and envelope-addressing abilities.

I bet your job would be a lot easier if everyone had to type out posts/responses on a typewriter and mail them in.

[kalvado]

Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

We should shut down the forum because it's making everyone more dependent on their keyboards and less dependent on their own handwriting and envelope-addressing abilities.

I bet your job would be a lot easier if everyone had to type out posts/responses on a typewriter and mail them in.

Point is that loss of skills which are no longer needed is natural.
Stone tools, for one, have been obsolete for millenia. Starting a car with a hand crank is another thing I never miss (I actually saw that used in real life!) Many drivers today don't know how to drive a shiftstick, or how to take care of a carburetor. So what?
If cameras and lidars can make backing up and parking easier, I am not the one to miss the skill.

[GaryV]

Stone tools, for one, have been obsolete for millenia.

Well ...
https://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/a-guide-to-choosing-a-mortar-and-pestle-article

[kalvado]

Stone tools, for one, have been obsolete for millenia.

Well ...
https://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/a-guide-to-choosing-a-mortar-and-pestle-article

Doesn't look like a stone age technology!
I was more thinking about select few who still know how to flintknapp - and who can make a knife out of a broken bottle

[ZLoth]

From Autocar:

Volkswagen CEO on fixing 'frustrating' interiors that 'did a lot of damage'
Boss Thomas Schäfer points to the all-new control layout of the Tiguan's cabin as a statement of VW's intent

Volkswagen CEO Thomas Schäfer says the introduction of widely criticised touch-sensitive controls in his brand's cars "definitely did a lot of damage" and he has pledged to usher in simpler, more functional interiors in all future cars.

Speaking to Autocar at the recent pre-production launch for the next-generation Volkswagen Tiguan, Schäfer pointed to the revamped crossover's cabin — a near-total departure from that of the Volkswagen ID 3 and Volkswagen Golf — as a statement of intent for future Volkswagens.

The Tiguan now comes with the choice of two, much larger infotainment touchscreens and is still light on physical controls.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

[formulanone]

"Another freaking unwanted electric gizmo to malfunction and stick me with an expensive repair bill”?

If it breaks and you don’t use it, then you can easily avoid the expensive repair bill by not getting it fixed.

It depends on what feature has failed. Some just stay broken and are largely unobtrusive; maybe no more than a warning light or an additional message, but one can just keep driving the same as before. Other items (traction control / stability control failure / ABS) might cause a check engine light to appear, and in some model-specific cases, one failure can lead to another unexpected issue. For example, an issue with parking sensors and "adaptive" cruise control causing each other to cancel out because one part had failed.

I think most rear-backup cameras are like the first scenario, though I have heard of one case whereby the camera image remained on the screen, rendering the rest of the infotainment unit unusable. Car technology is weird; I think most devices that aren't linked to the absolute safety and operation of the mechanical components are tested in a sort of vacuum. Much of it is tested and developed independent of each other, since their research and development usually occurs at different timelines due to the push-pull of evolving technology coupled with regulatory changes/hurdles. Throw in the concept of "everything in permanent Beta" with shrunken lifecycle commitments and you're bound to get issues.

Yeah, I get the Luddite attitude with cars; I don't always agree but there's a broken segments in the market for vehicles in that perfect, sweet spot quadrilateral of 1) limited technology 2) low prices 3) reliability 4) availability... Pick any two, unless you're good with fixing them yourself or have lots of time and money.

[kphoger]

I think most rear-backup cameras are like the first scenario, though I have heard of one case whereby the camera image remained on the screen, rendering the rest of the infotainment unit unusable. Car technology is weird; I think most devices that aren't linked to the absolute safety and operation of the mechanical components are tested in a sort of vacuum.

While we were in Mexico recently, we parked our two vehicles at the children's home we were staying at.  In order to make room for the vehicles, the director took her pickup truck and parked it at her sister's house across town.  While it was there, her sister's dogs chewed through the wire for the reverse lights.  Presumably because the backup camera gets its power from that wire, her backup camera display was therefore also rendered inoperable.  This was all discovered the night before we left, so I'm not sure if other vehicle features utilized the same screen and were therefore also rendered inoperable.

(This was actually kind of fortunate for us personally.  One of the other parking arrangement options would have been to leave our pickup truck at her sister's house instead.  The two pickups were the same model, and ours was a rental.  Another option would have been to leave my family's personal vehicle there.)

[J N Winkler]

The new technology can also complicate what would otherwise be routine repairs.  For example, one of my uncles has a newish Ram pickup whose windshield needed to be replaced after he got caught in a sandstorm, and it is taking multiple attempts to re-initialize the camera on which the lane keeping assist, adaptive cruise control, and several other systems depend.

[kkt]

Besides, they make the drivers of said vehicles more dependent on technology and less dependent on their own abilities.

We should shut down the forum because it's making everyone more dependent on their keyboards and less dependent on their own handwriting and envelope-addressing abilities.

I bet your job would be a lot easier if everyone had to type out posts/responses on a typewriter and mail them in.

I think you have invented the "Letters to the Editor" section of the newspaper ca. 1950

[ZLoth]

From Ars Technica:

European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls
In 2026, Euro NCAP points will be deducted if some controls aren't physical.

Some progress in the automotive industry is laudable. Cars are safer than ever and more efficient, too. But there are other changes we'd happily leave by the side of the road. That glossy "piano black" trim that's been overused the last few years, for starters. And the industry's overreliance on touchscreens for functions that used to be discrete controls. Well, the automotive safety organization European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) feels the same way about that last one, and it says the controls ought to change in 2026.

"The overuse of touchscreens is an industry-wide problem, with almost every vehicle-maker moving key controls onto central touchscreens, obliging drivers to take their eyes off the road and raising the risk of distraction crashes," said Matthew Avery, Euro NCAP's director of strategic development.

"New Euro NCAP tests due in 2026 will encourage manufacturers to use separate, physical controls for basic functions in an intuitive manner, limiting eyes-off-road time and therefore promoting safer driving," he said.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

[kalvado]

From Ars Technica:

European crash tester says carmakers must bring back physical controls
In 2026, Euro NCAP points will be deducted if some controls aren't physical.

Some progress in the automotive industry is laudable. Cars are safer than ever and more efficient, too. But there are other changes we'd happily leave by the side of the road. That glossy "piano black" trim that's been overused the last few years, for starters. And the industry's overreliance on touchscreens for functions that used to be discrete controls. Well, the automotive safety organization European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro NCAP) feels the same way about that last one, and it says the controls ought to change in 2026.

"The overuse of touchscreens is an industry-wide problem, with almost every vehicle-maker moving key controls onto central touchscreens, obliging drivers to take their eyes off the road and raising the risk of distraction crashes," said Matthew Avery, Euro NCAP's director of strategic development.

"New Euro NCAP tests due in 2026 will encourage manufacturers to use separate, physical controls for basic functions in an intuitive manner, limiting eyes-off-road time and therefore promoting safer driving," he said.

FULL ARTICLE HERE

It's funny that while they talk about touch screens, key example is Tesla with still physical turn signals buttons instead of a stalk.

[triplemultiplex]

Been using some new vehicles at work recently (model year 2024) and the touch-screen for almost everything is annoying.  The screen should be just for nav and music/radio/whatever.  Making me hunt for HVAC controls in there is too much.  Too many menus, too many settings, too much distraction from driving.

While I'm at it, I don't like temperature specific HVAC in modern cars.  I don't know if I want it 66 degrees or 68 degrees; I just want it a little warmer or a little cooler.  Further, with the specific temperature, whatever it's doing, hot or cold, stops when it hits that temperature.  Which sometimes is fine, but I refer back to my previous statement about not knowing what specific temperature I want.  67 might be fine on a cloudy day, but if it's sunny I might be roasting.  It's precision where it isn't really needed.
And now with those HVAC controls on a touch screen, that is less convenient to make adjustments.  Just give me a damn dial with a blue side and a red side.  Same for the option to toggle between feet, face and windshield.  I can't be hunting for those while I'm driving if I need to change it.  That's unsafe.

Dammit, I'm becoming an old man at 40.

[kphoger]

Been using some new vehicles at work recently (model year 2024) and the touch-screen for almost everything is annoying.  The screen should be just for nav and music/radio/whatever.  Making me hunt for HVAC controls in there is too much.  Too many menus, too many settings, too much distraction from driving.

While I'm at it, I don't like temperature specific HVAC in modern cars.  I don't know if I want it 66 degrees or 68 degrees; I just want it a little warmer or a little cooler.  Further, with the specific temperature, whatever it's doing, hot or cold, stops when it hits that temperature.  Which sometimes is fine, but I refer back to my previous statement about not knowing what specific temperature I want.  67 might be fine on a cloudy day, but if it's sunny I might be roasting.  It's precision where it isn't really needed.
And now with those HVAC controls on a touch screen, that is less convenient to make adjustments.  Just give me a damn dial with a blue side and a red side.  Same for the option to toggle between feet, face and windshield.  I can't be hunting for those while I'm driving if I need to change it.  That's unsafe.

Dammit, I'm becoming an old man at 40.

I think I love you. 

[Rothman]

Bring back the hi-beam control on the floor.

[Big John]

Been using some new vehicles at work recently (model year 2024) and the touch-screen for almost everything is annoying.  The screen should be just for nav and music/radio/whatever.  Making me hunt for HVAC controls in there is too much.  Too many menus, too many settings, too much distraction from driving.

While I'm at it, I don't like temperature specific HVAC in modern cars.  I don't know if I want it 66 degrees or 68 degrees; I just want it a little warmer or a little cooler.  Further, with the specific temperature, whatever it's doing, hot or cold, stops when it hits that temperature.  Which sometimes is fine, but I refer back to my previous statement about not knowing what specific temperature I want.  67 might be fine on a cloudy day, but if it's sunny I might be roasting.  It's precision where it isn't really needed.
And now with those HVAC controls on a touch screen, that is less convenient to make adjustments.  Just give me a damn dial with a blue side and a red side.  Same for the option to toggle between feet, face and windshield.  I can't be hunting for those while I'm driving if I need to change it.  That's unsafe.

Dammit, I'm becoming an old man at 40.

I think I love you. 

...but what am I so afraid of.  (In the what are you listening to thread)

[ZLoth]

Bring back the hi-beam control on the floor.

That got eliminated with either the front-wheel drive models or the desire of the US auto manufacturers to emulate the European manufacturers in the 1970s. Yes, I recall when my parents car had a hi-beam on the floor board.