Why Pittsburgh Is A Planners Dream And Nightmare

[jon daly]

From the crunchy-con New Urbanists at The American Conservative. I haven't read it yet, but I figure there may be some interest here; either pro or con:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/urbs/why-pittsburgh-is-a-planners-dream-and-nightmare/

[abefroman329]

I think the makers of The Dark Knight Rises had the best idea: Merge it with Manhattan.

[mgk920]

Also, without reading the article (which I want to do when I have some more time), one thing that I've been hearing from several Pennsylvanians with whom I sometimes interact is a seriously pressing need for local government reform in the state, most notably being a need to rethink municipal boundaries - and one of the items that one of my correspondents brings up is the Pittsburgh area and a desire by many there to merge the City of Pittsburgh with Allegheny County, having that entire county become one city.  There are numerous tiny suburbs that are no longer viable as independent entities and state law currently makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to do anything about it.

Mike

[qguy]

That's exactly what the City of Philadelphia did in the Great Consolidation of 1854. Prior to that the CoP was only what we today think of as Center City Phila (Delaware to Schuylkill Rivers, Vine to South Sts). In 1854 its borders expanded to the borders of what was Philadelphia County.

And yes, it did take an act of the state legislature.

[jon daly]

That's exactly what the City of Philadelphia did in the Great Consolidation of 1854. Prior to that the CoP was only what we today think of as Center City Phila (Delaware to Schuylkill Rivers, Vine to South Sts). In 1854 its borders expanded to the borders of what was Philadelphia County.

And yes, it did take an act of the state legislature.

I was aware of the mergers in NYC, but had no idea Philly is a product of consolidation, too.

[SSR_317]

Interesting article, and relatively politically neutral, which is a bit surprising given the source. Thanks for the link!

[Bitmapped]

Some form of municipal consolidation has been bandied about a for a long time in Allegheny County. There are 130 municipalities in the county. The fragmentation is so ridiculous that one of the larger shopping areas, The Waterfront, is split across three separate jurisdictions.

I doubt a Pittsburgh-Allegheny County consolidation is ever going to happen but there could be definite benefits to smaller scale mergers of adjacent municipalities. The Monongahela valley, which has seen massive de-industrialization, should be ground zero for this.

[jon daly]

I think that consolidation would help solve some problems with Connecticut cities, but

1. Everywhere is incorporated and I don't think the suburban towns would go for it.
2. A lot of municipalities already share services such as consolidated health districts, centralized dispatch centers, et cetera.

[Gnutella]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

[mgk920]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.

Mike

[Beltway]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

[ARMOURERERIC]

I always envisioned a split going down Greentree hill of 376 through traffic going into it's own tunnels on to a bridge south of the existing bridge and at a more 45 degree angle, something cable stayed with a lone tower on the Carson street side that had through ramps for 376 toughing down between market and grant

[seicer]

Even if you somehow widened Fort Pitt - would it solve anything? A Southern Bypass is in the works, but traffic doesn't become insurmountable if you don't travel at rush hour - just take I-79 to the Turnpike if you really need to get around the city. And even if you somehow widen the tunnel, you would still need to widen the interstate west/south towards I-79 (long-term goal to six lanes) and tear-down and rebuild the Fort Pitt bridges which are constrained.

It just works as it is right now. The bigger goal would to be to divert more local traffic onto enhanced transit systems via light rail or BRT.

[mgk920]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

This sounds like what Caltrans did a while back at the CA 24 Caldecott tunnel in Oakland, CA.  They drilled parallel tubes to widen the freeway.

Mike

[VTGoose]

Some form of municipal consolidation has been bandied about a for a long time in Allegheny County. There are 130 municipalities in the county. The fragmentation is so ridiculous that one of the larger shopping areas, The Waterfront, is split across three separate jurisdictions.

I doubt a Pittsburgh-Allegheny County consolidation is ever going to happen but there could be definite benefits to smaller scale mergers of adjacent municipalities. The Monongahela valley, which has seen massive de-industrialization, should be ground zero for this.

The killer of a full consolidation would be the taxes -- how they would be assessed and then distributed, especially for schools.

The state years ago forced a number of school mergers to "improve" schools, often forcing a failing system on a good system with mixed results. For example, Cornell is a merger of the Coraopolis and Neville schools, which the residents of Neville Island resisted (and Moon was able to get out of). In the scheme of things it may have eventually been inevitable as Neville Township (living large on the taxes from all the industry on the island) saw property values drop when Dravo et al shut down and/or moved out, leaving brownfields in their wake.

Bruce in Blacksburg (but a native of the 'Burgh)

[DeaconG]

That's exactly what the City of Philadelphia did in the Great Consolidation of 1854. Prior to that the CoP was only what we today think of as Center City Phila (Delaware to Schuylkill Rivers, Vine to South Sts). In 1854 its borders expanded to the borders of what was Philadelphia County.

And yes, it did take an act of the state legislature.

I was aware of the mergers in NYC, but had no idea Philly is a product of consolidation, too.

Same thing was done with Jacksonville and Duval County in Florida.

[nexus73]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

Seeing how Seattle did well in the Seventies with the reversible lanes on I-5, why not build two 3-lane tunnels, one on each side of the current tunnel, then use the old tunnel as reversible lanes?

Rick

[Bitmapped]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

Seeing how Seattle did well in the Seventies with the reversible lanes on I-5, why not build two 3-lane tunnels, one on each side of the current tunnel, then use the old tunnel as reversible lanes?

Rick

Fort Pitt is a pair of 2-lane tunnels now. The downtown ends are at different levels because they tie directly in with the double-deck Fort Pitt Bridge. I don't know how you could feasible configure a reversible tunnel here because of the elevation difference.

[nexus73]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

Seeing how Seattle did well in the Seventies with the reversible lanes on I-5, why not build two 3-lane tunnels, one on each side of the current tunnel, then use the old tunnel as reversible lanes?

Rick

Fort Pitt is a pair of 2-lane tunnels now. The downtown ends are at different levels because they tie directly in with the double-deck Fort Pitt Bridge. I don't know how you could feasible configure a reversible tunnel here because of the elevation difference.

Move the direction-changing apparatus to a place where the land can handle it.  By the way, I did not know there were two tunnels already present.  The posts I read did not make that clear to me.  Even if there are two, there is apparently not enough tunnels and lanes to handle the traffic, so keep on tunneling until there is!

Rick

[silverback1065]

i don't like city county consolidations, it's completely fucked up the finances of indianapolis a.k.a. potholeville

[SSR_317]

i don't like city county consolidations, it's completely fucked up the finances of indianapolis a.k.a. potholeville

What screwed UniGov up here is not the overall concept, but politics. To envision Pittsburgh & Allegheny County in PA, first imagine that Marion County, IN and every county surrounding it were one big county, then take the total number of municipalities in those and multiply that figure by at least 10, then see what a giant mess you'd have. That's the situation over there in western PA.

[Super Mateo]

Has there ever been a vehicle tunnel that's been successfully enlarged? If not, then maybe the Fort Pitt Tunnel can be the first attempt.

The tunnels on I-70 in the Idaho Springs, CO area were reamed out from four to six lanes in recent years.
Mike

Those tunnels are about 700 feet long and under about 100 feet of earth.   They also had a ready place to detour the traffic during construction, right around the hillside near the tunnels.

The Fort Pitt Tunnel is over 3,600 feet long and under much greater depth of earth, and the engineering and construction challenge would be far greater.  Not saying it can't be done but it might be extremely expensive and complex.  Might be better to add two more 2-lane tubes.  107,000 AADT I see, definite 8-lane territory.

Seeing how Seattle did well in the Seventies with the reversible lanes on I-5, why not build two 3-lane tunnels, one on each side of the current tunnel, then use the old tunnel as reversible lanes?

Rick

Fort Pitt is a pair of 2-lane tunnels now. The downtown ends are at different levels because they tie directly in with the double-deck Fort Pitt Bridge. I don't know how you could feasible configure a reversible tunnel here because of the elevation difference.

Move the direction-changing apparatus to a place where the land can handle it.  By the way, I did not know there were two tunnels already present.  The posts I read did not make that clear to me.  Even if there are two, there is apparently not enough tunnels and lanes to handle the traffic, so keep on tunneling until there is!

Rick

It's not that simple.  Expanding the tunnels not only involves digging out more space that people live on top of, but also figuring out how to do it to connect to a double-decker bridge, then expanding the bridge, and reconfiguring or closing the exits that are feet away from both sides of the tunnels.  Then there's the smaller issues of making sure US 19 can be followed and making sure the eastbound scenery stays.  I've only been through the tunnels three times, and two of them were by choice to check out the scenery.  The third was on my way to a Pirates game so I could fulfill a desire of seeing an MLB game in person somewhere outside of Chicago.  It was on the way to somewhere else in PA.

[The Ghostbuster]

Would it be possible to implement congestion-priced tolling on the tunnels, as a way to stave off a high-impact, expensive widening of the tunnels? In theory, of course.

[CtrlAltDel]

It's not that simple.  Expanding the tunnels not only involves digging out more space that people live on top of [snip]

One of those things that I've often wondered about is how land ownership works in these cases. Are the houses on top of the tunnel rented or something along those lines? Or does it work like air rights?

[briantroutman]

Are the houses on top of the tunnel rented or something along those lines?

Apparently not; they're owned privately just like any other homes. You can pull up the Allegheny County Parcel Map Viewer to see what person or organization owns any particular property, and every single house over the Fort Pitt Tunnel that I've checked is owned by a private citizen.

One interesting item I noticed is that the parcel map shows the grid of house-sized parcels continuing south and west of the group of homes that remain today–over area currently consumed by the steep cliff over the tunnel opening and its southern/western portal. Each of these nonexistent home sites is owned, not by PennDOT or the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, but by the City of Pittsburgh. So apparently, it was necessary to demolish a nontrivial portion of the neighborhood to accommodate the tunnel itself, but I'm not sure why the city would have acquired those properties and not the state.



Edited to add: Considering the challenges with linking an expanded tunnel to the two-deck bridge, and also considering the other bottlenecks that exist as motorists continue to the Parkway East or Parkway North, trying bore a third tube or widen the existing ones would be a waste of limited funds, in my estimation. With I-79, I-76, and eventually the Southern Beltway all serving as bypasses of the city itself, there's little reason to be using the Fort Pitt Tunnel unless you're headed to or from the city, and in that case, the money would be much better spent on expanding transit options into and around the city.