SunPass query as to residents of E-ZPass states

[realjd]

As has been stated elsewhere in this thread, both of Florida's devices are apparently not battery-powered, and I certainly can't argue that it's more convenient for the motorist as well not to have to think about the battery issue.

That's relatively new, as of a couple of years ago.

The idea of coming up with some sort of inter-agency toll-by-plate system makes a lot of sense, although supposedly some states charge outrageous fees to out-of-state toll agencies for access to plate databases. I don't know the details on that, but I gather that such fees are one obstacle to the adoption of this sort of thing.

They charge a fee to do a simple plate lookup? This alone may explain the administrative fee for toll-by-plate here if you don't register your vehicle's tags ahead of time.

Orlando's E-Pass system was actually the first in Florida, and one of the first in the country. I wonder if, back when E-Pass first came around, interoperability was even on anyone's radar? I know E-ZPass (I just realized I had been putting the hyphen in the wrong place!) started around the same time. Early 90's maybe? Linking databases back then would have been a MUCH harder due to the fact that the internet wasn't really big yet. This is pure speculation, but if E-Pass and EZ-Pass were incompatible technologies, when SunPass came out around 2000 that essentially locked them into using the E-Pass technology instead of the more widely used E-ZPass technology due to the need for compatibility with Orlando roads.

[NE2]

I know E-Pass and O-Pass (Osceola Parkway) were interoperable in the pre-SunPass days. It's possible that O-Pass was designed with this in mind.

[edit]Yes, it was: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1995-08-18/news/9508180235_1_osceola-parkway-florida-turnpike-turnpike-interchange/2

[realjd]

Of course O-Pass is dead now...

When did LeeWay come about? Was it originally compatible as well? Their website has diagrams that make it look like they used identical transponders to the E-Pass. And like E-Pass, they now sell their own sticker "mini" transponders.

[mightyace]

Maybe the Feds can use a highway money ploy to require interoperability.

Of course, it would have to be tricky as toll roads themselves get little or no federal highway money.

How about this?

To retain federal highway dollars, any conversion of a free highway or toll or the addition of toll lanes to an existing highway must use interoperable transponders.

Now, that wouldn't hit Florida that hard if at all.  So, how about this as well:

Any interchange between a toll highway and a free highway that uses federal highway money must support interoperable transponders for any electronic tolls that they have or the free highway loses its federal $$$.

_______________________________

OK, yes, that's a bit ridiculous, but so is having dozens of electronic tolling transponders across the country.

[1995hoo]

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. The SunPass Mini arrived in the mail today. I'm going to leave the E-ZPass at home because we won't need it on this trip (we're taking the Auto Train TO Florida and driving back home at the end of the trip, and E-ZPass won't be needed either way), so I won't be able to confirm whether the devices interfere with each other. I gather from the comments here that you folks recommend simply leaving the peel-off backing on the Mini in place and then using some Scotch tape to attach it to the windshield? If that's a bad idea, please let me know.

Thanks again for the thorough feedback. I've seen reports online that they're working on some sort of integration between E-ZPass and SunPass using toll-by-plate to bill the respective account, in which case I'll cancel the SunPass account, but for our trip later this summer this thread was very helpful.

[realjd]

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. The SunPass Mini arrived in the mail today. I'm going to leave the E-ZPass at home because we won't need it on this trip (we're taking the Auto Train TO Florida and driving back home at the end of the trip, and E-ZPass won't be needed either way), so I won't be able to confirm whether the devices interfere with each other. I gather from the comments here that you folks recommend simply leaving the peel-off backing on the Mini in place and then using some Scotch tape to attach it to the windshield? If that's a bad idea, please let me know.

Yes, do this. Don't peel the backing off. Tape it onto the windshield so that the backing is toward the glass. Everything on the SunPass website and box say this won't work. They try to claim that the windshield glass acts as an antenna. Glass antennas aren't a real thing. I've done this several times before and never had an issue. I've even tried it just holding the sticker up to the glass and it scanned just fine.

I'll reiterate again though - be sure to have your license plate number associated with the SunPass account. Even a properly mounted tag will sometimes not read. If they can tie your tag to your SunPass account you avoid a ticket.

[1995hoo]

Thanks again for all the advice in this thread. The SunPass Mini arrived in the mail today. I'm going to leave the E-ZPass at home because we won't need it on this trip (we're taking the Auto Train TO Florida and driving back home at the end of the trip, and E-ZPass won't be needed either way), so I won't be able to confirm whether the devices interfere with each other. I gather from the comments here that you folks recommend simply leaving the peel-off backing on the Mini in place and then using some Scotch tape to attach it to the windshield? If that's a bad idea, please let me know.

Yes, do this. Don't peel the backing off. Tape it onto the windshield so that the backing is toward the glass. Everything on the SunPass website and box say this won't work. They try to claim that the windshield glass acts as an antenna. Glass antennas aren't a real thing. I've done this several times before and never had an issue. I've even tried it just holding the sticker up to the glass and it scanned just fine.

I'll reiterate again though - be sure to have your license plate number associated with the SunPass account. Even a properly mounted tag will sometimes not read. If they can tie your tag to your SunPass account you avoid a ticket.

Did that when I set up the account and added Ms1995hoo's car even though the odds are it won't be driven in Florida anytime soon. Thanks again for the help. I'll do the tape thing, although I might wait until after we retrieve the car from the Auto Train so there's no temptation for a worker to steal it.

The Mini is quite similar to the Transcore gate openers used at the complex where Ms1995hoo lived before we got married.

[realjd]

Have a great trip! I hope you enjoy your time in our beautiful - if hot - state.

[Ace10]

[...] so I won't be able to confirm whether the devices interfere with each other [...]

I'm not sure if anyone has spoken about this in this thread already, but just my two cents: I recently took a trip to Chicago from Florida. I had both a SunPass (portable, battery-powered) and I-Pass (from the ISTHA) mounted in the car in Florida, Indiana, and Illinois, and each worked in their respective regions without interference from what I could tell. All of my toll transactions show up as transponder tolls, with no "image tolls" or "video tolls" as ISTHA calls them I think. Both are still mounted in my car to this day (the trip was 3 months ago) and so far things seem well, though my SunPass is starting to act up, but I think it may be because of a dying battery and not both transponders being mounted to the windshield.

[1995hoo]

I can now confirm that E-ZPass and the SunPass Mini do not interfere with each other, at least not in Florida, as the SunPass worked fine on the Sunshine Skyway two days ago (I forgot to remove the E-ZPass before leaving home). As suggested here, I used scotch tape to put the SunPass Mini up and it worked fine.

[mtantillo]

I occasionally see people with a SunPass sticker and E-ZPass tag on their cars (mostly on I-95).  The two systems use COMPLETELY different protocols, and won't interfere with each other.  E-ZPass and Smart Tag used the exact same transponders (hence the interference if the two were mounted side by side).  I would also avoid having two eGo sticker tags mounted side by side (say, a Georgia PeachPass and Florida SunPass). 

The taping the tag to the windshield and not peeling off the backing is a good trick to know, as it would enable someone to have multiple accounts and be able to swap out the tags when necessary.  Though if I was just going on a quick trip to Florida, I might be tempted to actually put the sticker tag on properly, then peel it off (and in the process, destroying it) when I get home.  SunPass has no idea that the tag is destroyed, but I still have my account.  Then, next time I go to Florida, which would likely be a year or more later, I just order another sticker, link it to the account I have set up already, and pull the old tag off the account).  As long as the SunPasses are "free" (read: as long as I spend more than $5 in tolls per trip), no harm, no foul with getting a new tag for each trip. 

Of note...E-ZPass and SunPass will have some limited interoperability by year's end. 
http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5365

Apparently E-ZPass will likely work in SunPass territory, but the transactions will all be video transactions, not transponder transactions, so having E-ZPass mounted is not necessary, but having your license plate info up to date is necessary!  All Florida toll agencies will allow rental cars to drive through the electronic lanes without a transponder...those are video transactions.  So essentially what will happen is you drive through the SunPass lane, it won't read a transponder, but will snap a photo since it assumes you are a violator.  But  prior to generating a violation notice, it checks a list of "known license plates".  That's how they know which rental car company to bill each rental car toll to.  Now, all the E-ZPass license plates will be "known" to the SunPass computers, and they will simply bill E-ZPass instead of generating a violation. 

The reverse is likely to take much longer though.  Many E-ZPass toll agencies still have gates and no cameras...thus, you have to have a transponder that properly reads in order to pass through.  This is why the rental cars come with an E-ZPass transponder if you rent one in an E-ZPass state...they can't do video tolls.  So my guess is that first, the agencies that do cashless tolling (Maryland) will be first on board with "knowing" the license plate numbers of SunPass customers.  Then agencies that don't have cashless tolling, but do have video cams, will come on board, as they may need to upgrade systems for many more video-based transactions.  The agencies that use gated lanes, or some lanes without video cameras (such as some ticket toll roads that only have cameras on exit lanes, not entry lanes) will be last to be SunPass compatible. 

Lets hope this E-ZPass/SunPass experiment works, because if it does, we can expect to see a lot more interoperability in the near future!

[1995hoo]

Found out the hard way yesterday that the Rickenbacker Causeway to Key Biscayne doesn't accept SunPass (drove into the auto-toll lane because no sign said they don't take SunPass, then found a tiny sign taped by the arm...d'oh). Arm went up after a brief delay and we went on our way. Anyone know whether I ought to expect a bill in the mail in a few weeks? The waiter at the restaurant where we stopped thought they usually don't bother if you're recorded for just a single violation at that facility.

Used the I-95 HOT facility twice, incidentally. It was only 25 cents since it was Saturday and there were fewer cars in there. The system here is a bit different from what Virginia is doing with HOT lanes because here you must register your carpool to ride free, whereas Virginia plans to use a switchable E-ZPass so that anyone with three or more people can use the lanes for free. In principle I like Virginia's approach better, but we'll see how it works in practice.

[mtantillo]

Registered carpools are just a way to "minimize" the use of the lanes by non-toll paying customers.  Oh, and they won't let you register unless you are a Florida resident.  I know someone who wanted to register, who was from WV, and was a "snowbird", and the answer was "No can do."

Virginia will have quite a few HOV-3's paying the toll too.  Anyone from NY, MA, etc. with an E-ZPass can use the HOT lanes, but if you don't have the switchable transponder, it will just assume it should charge you the toll.  I imagine a lot of unhappy people who see the signs: "Express Lanes, E-ZPass Only, HOV-3+ Free" and either think the system will automatically not charge HOV-3 vehicles (not true, only with switchable transponder), or think that these HOT lanes work like California's, and that the "HOV-3+ Free" means they can dismount their E-ZPass for free passage (not true, the HOV-3+ free is telling you to switch your transponder into HOV mode, and not to dismount it, those who do will get a violation notice for fine + toll).  The only reason VDOT is requiring E-ZPass for HOV's not paying the toll is so they have a log of what the toll "would have been" had they paid...which means logging entry and exit points for all vehicles, not just toll paying vehicles.  They need to know what the toll "would have been" so they can charge VDOT if there are too many HOV's using the facility toll free, as per the agreement. 

[realjd]

Found out the hard way yesterday that the Rickenbacker Causeway to Key Biscayne doesn't accept SunPass (drove into the auto-toll lane because no sign said they don't take SunPass, then found a tiny sign taped by the arm...d'oh). Arm went up after a brief delay and we went on our way. Anyone know whether I ought to expect a bill in the mail in a few weeks? The waiter at the restaurant where we stopped thought they usually don't bother if you're recorded for just a single violation at that facility.

I think the state gives you 3 violations before they bother with the ticket. The Rickenbacker is a county road, I don't know what Miami-Dade County would do. If you're concerned, there's a phone number here:
http://www.miamidade.gov/pubworks/causeways.asp

[vdeane]

Registered carpools are just a way to "minimize" the use of the lanes by non-toll paying customers.  Oh, and they won't let you register unless you are a Florida resident.  I know someone who wanted to register, who was from WV, and was a "snowbird", and the answer was "No can do."

Virginia will have quite a few HOV-3's paying the toll too.  Anyone from NY, MA, etc. with an E-ZPass can use the HOT lanes, but if you don't have the switchable transponder, it will just assume it should charge you the toll.  I imagine a lot of unhappy people who see the signs: "Express Lanes, E-ZPass Only, HOV-3+ Free" and either think the system will automatically not charge HOV-3 vehicles (not true, only with switchable transponder), or think that these HOT lanes work like California's, and that the "HOV-3+ Free" means they can dismount their E-ZPass for free passage (not true, the HOV-3+ free is telling you to switch your transponder into HOV mode, and not to dismount it, those who do will get a violation notice for fine + toll).  The only reason VDOT is requiring E-ZPass for HOV's not paying the toll is so they have a log of what the toll "would have been" had they paid...which means logging entry and exit points for all vehicles, not just toll paying vehicles.  They need to know what the toll "would have been" so they can charge VDOT if there are too many HOV's using the facility toll free, as per the agreement. 

I'm sure the fact that the state can now make people without transponders who would otherwise be eligible to use the lane for free pay up is also a factor.

[1995hoo]

I realized that I forgot to follow up on one aspect of this thread. In my original post from a few months ago I had asked whether the SunPass device interferes with the E-ZPass because back when Virginia's old Smart Tag system was incompatible with E-ZPass the two devices interfered with each other. I previously confirmed here that the SunPass Mini worked fine in Florida when the E-ZPass was in place. Last Thursday night I used my E-ZPass for the first time since returning from Florida when I went through the Spring Hill Road ramp toll on the Dulles Toll Road coming from DC. (Yes, if I had used VA-123 I could have saved 75¢, but traffic on there was at a standstill and I really needed to use the men's room.) I still have the SunPass Mini in place (using Scotch tape as discussed here) and there was no problem at all.

Just thought I'd follow up for completeness in case anyone else ever looks at this thread with the same questions. Thanks again to those who responded with advice.


PS. No ticket from the Rickenbacker, at least not yet. Had they sent one with some kind of surcharge I probably would have sent them the amount of the toll with no surcharge and a letter saying "put up a 'No SunPass' sign."

[mtantillo]

PS. No ticket from the Rickenbacker, at least not yet. Had they sent one with some kind of surcharge I probably would have sent them the amount of the toll with no surcharge and a letter saying "put up a 'No SunPass' sign."

Almost every place will waive the fee if you call and have an honest explanation for the mistake. 

as for why no ticket, probably because it would cost them way more in lookup fees than they would recover in tolls.  The toll agencies usually have agreements to buy bulk data with only a few states (or in Miami, I wouldn't be surprised if it was only Florida).  I'm still waiting for a speed camera ticket I got in DC back in 2003....car was registered in NY at the time, I guess DC doesn't have an agreement with NY!  Though they probably do now.

[1995hoo]

Totally unrelated to this topic, but nice smackdown of those idiots making the whiny comments about the HOT project on WTOP's site.

[mtantillo]

Haha no problem!  What I said is the truth.  We transportation types run into a lot of people who think they know everything.  Those types, we can try to teach them how things work, but if they don't listen, their opinion is quickly dismissed.  Contrast that with people who disagree with a project and can make a logical argument as to why.  HOT ain't perfect, but at the end of the day, we have 2 new lanes on I-495 which are partially funded by users.  The lanes will operate close to their maximum capacity.  When we get enough of these in the USA, an American company will start bidding these projects.   

And to get back on topic, the I-95 HOT lanes in Miami enjoy approval from a majority of people polled. 

[realjd]

SunPass recently added info on SunPass and EZ-Pass (lack of) interference on their website:
https://www.sunpass.com/faq

30. Will a SunPass Mini transponder interfere with our EZ Pass when we mount it to our windshield on trips to the Northeast?

A. No, your SunPass Mini will not interfere as the transponders have different protocols and will not register the tolls outside their jurisdiction.

[cpzilliacus]

From TOLLROADSnews: IBTTA to US House transport committee: "We're doing toll interoperability. Butt out."

E-ZPass/Florida SunPass "on verge" of IOP pact

Biggest news will be the statement that the E-ZPass Group and Florida's SunPass system "are on the verge of an agreement that will allow these two systems to read and process payments between the drivers using either system."

The report has a timeline chart at the end which has June 2012 the estimated date for a 'E-ZPass SunPass Reciprocity Agreement.'

They say: "This would allow users of the predominant electronic toll collection systems on the U.S. East Coast to traverse toll systems between Florida and Maine and west to Illinois using their 'home' transponder."

[xcellntbuy]

Having both a Sunpass (my Florida home) and an E-Z Pass (my New York home), it would great to use up the balance and then just keep one and close the other.

[mightyace]

From TOLLROADSnews: IBTTA to US House transport committee: "We're doing toll interoperability. Butt out."

I'm sorry but I'm not buying it.  If we letter the tollers control it, we'll have interoperability by say 2050!  I'm generally a fan of small government, but unless the federal government intervenes, there will be some holdouts for a long time.

[cpzilliacus]

From TOLLROADSnews: IBTTA to US House transport committee: "We're doing toll interoperability. Butt out."

I'm sorry but I'm not buying it.  If we letter the tollers control it, we'll have interoperability by say 2050!  I'm generally a fan of small government, but unless the federal government intervenes, there will be some holdouts for a long time.

Perhaps not?  As Peter writes below, tri-mode readers should be a Great Leap Forward for interoperability, especially in the East and Midwest.

TOLLROADSnews: Major toll equipment makers set to offer tri-mode readers

E-ZPass toll country has only the one protocol to handle internally (IAG) and it could choose to read say 6Bs from Florida and Texas with a present generation bi-mode reader. But it couldn't read all SunPass or all TxTag because those brands are still represented with by a minority of tags using the older protocols.

The big push at present is for east coast interoperability - E-ZPass, NC, GA, FL.

Officials involved in the interoperability effort say tri-mode readers would help hugely down the east coast because they could be set to E-ZPass IAG, 6B eGo and Allegro protocols. Handling 6C would be something of a challenge still, but a small one in terms of volume.

[cpzilliacus]

TOLLROADSnews is reporting that  Florida's Turnpike Enterprise will be procuring transponder readers and back-office hardware to directly read E-ZPass IAG transponders.

Florida Turnpike procuring 3 or 4-way readers for interop with E-ZPass, NC, GA first up

And not just the Turnpike's toll roads either:

The Turnpike seems to be leading the push for interoperability in the state which makes sense because its the largest and it gets by far the most long-distance traffic. Nelson says he thinks the Orlando, Miami and Tampa tollers will also become part of the process also.