New York State Thruway

[cl94]

The thing with Thruway exit numbers is that FHWA wanted both I-87 and I-90 to have a single set of numbers that increased from S-N or W-E. I-87 would still have at least two Exit 2s if you renumbered its non-Thruway portions. With the Ohio Turnpike, no numbers are repeated along I-76, so it isn't confusing, but there is no way to have I-90 exit numbers increase in one direction without renumbering the Thruway. I assume that the Kansas Turnpike's weirdness with I-70 exit numbers predates the current FHWA edicts.

[astralentity]

I guess I can't see where the confusion would lie if I-90 and I-87 had their own continuous set of numbers.  The modern IT half of my brain says the computer system wouldn't care what the I number was, just the internal gantry number in the database.

[Jim]

So to me it comes down to this choice:

Two major interstate highways get single sets of consistent, mile-based exit numbers, doing what is done in almost the entire rest of the country.  This is at the expense of one road (Thruway) having two sets of exit numbers that switch when it clearly makes basically a 90 degree turn.

or

The Thruway maintaining a single set of exit numbers at the expense of two major interstate highways each having 3 inconsistent sets of exit numbers.

The only valid reasons I can think of for keeping the status quo are that it costs money to change (though it's party, party, party, spend, spend, spend in NYS this year anyway) and that it would take some short amount of time for people to get used to the new numbers.  So let's just do this right, already.

[jemacedo9]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

[lstone19]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

And at least for me, as a result, the PA Turnpike name is no longer relevant since saying PA Turnpike Exit nnn no longer gives me a general sense of where the exit is since for the low numbers, without having memorized all the exits, it does not tell me which road it's on. From a Marketing perspective, the PA Turnpike's renumbering was a major negative for the PA Turnpike "brand".

[empirestate]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

Sure, no question that the issue could have been solved. We're just wondering if that was indeed the reason all along. What did NYSTA actually say about it, when asked? I can't recall one way or the other.

[kalvado]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

And at least for me, as a result, the PA Turnpike name is no longer relevant since saying PA Turnpike Exit nnn no longer gives me a general sense of where the exit is since for the low numbers, without having memorized all the exits, it does not tell me which road it's on. From a Marketing perspective, the PA Turnpike's renumbering was a major negative for the PA Turnpike "brand".

And how important that branding really is? I can understand FLorida, where 95 and turnpike are almost direct competition for some distance. Thruway is the road in the area. 
ANyway, a stupid question... If someone in NYSTA decides to show who is the most important person  around... COuld they consider just dropping interstate designations altogether? They do not get FHWA funding, so that is not the reason to keep the number. Of course FHWA could pressure the state.
There is a FHWA loan for Tappan Zee bridge, some agreement about I-88 traffic - but does that give FHWA enough leverage?

[vdeane]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

The situation is not analogous.  The Northeast Extension is really a spur from the rest of the PA Turnpike, not an extension (much like how the Berkshire Spur branches off the Thruway).  As such, it makes sense that it would have a separate set of exit numbers.  The Thruway mainline is continuous - in fact, I-87 exits itself in both directions multiple times!  It's more like how I-76 and I-95 hop off/on the PA Turnpike, only more complicated.

[MASTERNC]

The PA Turnpike had the same single numbering scheme for the mainline and the NE Extension.
Mainline (I-76 and I-276) were Exits 1-30
NE Extension I-476 was Exits 31-38.

When the renumbering took place, there would have been two duplicates:  56 (Pittsburgh on the mainline and Lehigh Valley on the NE Ext) and 75 (New Stanton on the mainline and Mahoning Valley on the NE Ext). 
The answer:  fudge one of the exit numbers by one.  Problem solved.

Technically I think Exit 31 (Lansdale) might have been fudged as well.  Think it is closer to the 29-30 mile marker.  The Warrendale main line toll plaza on I-76 was also considered "Exit" 30.

[lstone19]

With more thought on the matter, I think what the ISTHA (Illinois) has done is instructive. Unlike the Thruway, ISTHA was late to exit numbering but what they did, they just went with the appropriate south-to-north or west-to-east number for the mileage. I don't believe any attempt has been made to avoid duplicates. But for tolls, reference is made to plaza numbers (and name) and plaza numbers have nothing to do with mileage or exit numbers (they're mostly sequential by road with some out of sequence due to when they were built). Plus ISTHA has always marketed the roads by their individual names rather than a blanket name covering the whole thing (although while their is the "Illinois Tollways" umbrella name, I never hear it used to describe a particularly road).

For that to work in NY, the Thruway needs to move away from the "New York State Thruway" name to describe the road and divide it into sub-Thruways and push those names so exit numbers match with a name (I made that suggestion almost a year ago and several pages back). Something like "Hudson River Thruway" for the I-87 section and "Erie Canal Thruway" for the Buffalo to Albany section of I-90. They already have the New England Thruway and the Niagara Thruway so the precedent is there.

As it is, EB through Thruway traffic at Exit 24 diverges to the right which would help reinforce the idea you're moving from one road to another.

[Michael]

A few weeks ago, The Citizen's website had a gallery of pictures from the Weedsport toll plaza, including pictures inside a booth.  It was pretty neat, but I wish they were color.  I've always wondered what the inside of a Thruway toll booth looked like!

[Roadgeekteen]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

[Rothman]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

Between Utica and Amsterdam.

[webny99]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

Between Utica and Amsterdam.

On this, we can agree. I can't even think of any other good candidates... certainly nothing west of Syracuse (this is about as scenic as it gets, and even that's a stretch).

[froggie]

I'd argue somewhere in the vicinity of Kingston, especially northbound.

There IS an otherwise very fantastic view westbound somewhere west of Amsterdam...but it unfortunately gets completely ruined by a large billboard halfway up the hill.

[dkblake]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

Between Utica and Amsterdam.

On this, we can agree. I can't even think of any other good candidates... certainly nothing west of Syracuse (this is about as scenic as it gets, and even that's a stretch).

The stretch just west of Herkimer is pretty nice too (not the best picture, but looking down on Frankfort and Ilion): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0268177,-75.0335144,3a,75y,204.33h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUCFyfQvKNcjU9eH0bIq_kA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[webny99]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

Between Utica and Amsterdam.

On this, we can agree. I can't even think of any other good candidates... certainly nothing west of Syracuse (this is about as scenic as it gets, and even that's a stretch).

The stretch just west of Herkimer is pretty nice too (not the best picture, but looking down on Frankfort and Ilion): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0268177,-75.0335144,3a,75y,204.33h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUCFyfQvKNcjU9eH0bIq_kA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Indeed. That would be included in Utica-Amsterdam. 

[vdeane]

You need to go on I-87 more often.

[webny99]

There IS an otherwise very fantastic view westbound somewhere west of Amsterdam...but it unfortunately gets completely ruined by a large billboard halfway up the hill.

Is this the one you're thinking of?

[froggie]

Yep.  Visible beginning near the top of the descent, and gets more obnoxious as you descend.

A billboard has been there since at least 2003 (when I first started traveling the region)...wouldn't surprise me if it's been longer.

[webny99]

You need to go on I-87 more often.

Nice pavement quality 

In seriousness, that may be a bit more dramatic than the Mohawk Valley, but I still prefer the Mohawk Valley, partly because the scenery is closer to the road (that makes a difference, especially in the fall), and partly because it's cool at night as well with the lights from various towns visible in the valleys.

[dkblake]

In your opinion, what is the best scenery on the Thruway?

Between Utica and Amsterdam.

On this, we can agree. I can't even think of any other good candidates... certainly nothing west of Syracuse (this is about as scenic as it gets, and even that's a stretch).

The stretch just west of Herkimer is pretty nice too (not the best picture, but looking down on Frankfort and Ilion): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0268177,-75.0335144,3a,75y,204.33h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUCFyfQvKNcjU9eH0bIq_kA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Indeed. That would be included in Utica-Amsterdam. 

D'oh! Mentally flipped the Utica/Herkimer exits. It's interesting to me how much the character of I-90 changes somewhere around the Canastota exit from these beautiful valley views to straight and flat. This was intensified for me because I used to drive between MA and Syracuse during undergrad, and the few times I drove west to Rochester or Buffalo I almost felt like I was on another road.

[paul02474]

For that to work in NY, the Thruway needs to move away from the "New York State Thruway" name to describe the road and divide it into sub-Thruways and push those names so exit numbers match with a name (I made that suggestion almost a year ago and several pages back). Something like "Hudson River Thruway" for the I-87 section and "Erie Canal Thruway" for the Buffalo to Albany section of I-90. They already have the New England Thruway and the Niagara Thruway so the precedent is there.

You raise an interesting question pertaining to branding of the Thruway. According to the Thruway's website, the NY State Thruway consists of seven segments for a total length of 570 miles.

THE MAINLINE (New York - Buffalo): 426 miles
ERIE SECTION (Buffalo - Pennsylvania Line): 70 miles
NIAGARA SECTION I-190 (Buffalo - Niagara Falls): 21 miles
BERKSHIRE SECTION (Selkirk - Massachusetts Line): 24 miles
NEW ENGLAND SECTION (I-95) (Bronx - Connecticut Line): 15 miles
GARDEN STATE PARKWAY CONNECTION (Spring Valley - New Jersey): 3 miles
CROSS WESTCHESTER EXPRESSWAY (I-287) (Mainline I-87 in Tarrytown - I-95 in Rye): 11 miles

The current exit numbers were critical for the ticketed system, from Woodbury to Buffalo. The folks who printed the tickets, the toll takers, and the drivers holding onto the tickets needed an exit system that was aligned to the task of calculating tolls.

Electronic tolling has eliminated any need to maintain the current exit numbers. Consider the current situation on I-87 and I-90.

NY Thruway Exit 5 (NY 100 North in Yonkers) is 11 miles north of the current endpoint of I-87 in The Bronx.
NY Thruway Exit 60 (NY 394 - Westfield) is 11 miles east of the Pennsylvania border.

Prior to all-electronic tolling, this would have presented a challenge for toll takers and navigation. Using electronic tolling, you will get a toll statement based on the gantries you pass through. You will pay for a passenger car with a NY EZ Pass (out of state EZ Pass) (Pay by mail):
Yonkers gantry: $1.19 ($1.37) ($1.54)
Spring Valley gantry: $0.00 ($0.00) $0.00)
Harriman gantry: $0.00 ($0.00) $0.00)
Newburgh to Albany Downtown: $4.98 ($5.73) ($6.48)
Gantry between Exit 23 & 24: $0.27 ($0.31) ($0.35)
Gantry between Exit 24 & 25: $0.27 ($0.31) ($0.35)
Gantry between Exit 25 $ 25A: $0.22 ($0.26) ($0.29)
I-88 Schenectady to I-481 Syracuse: $5.26 ($6.05) ($6.84)
East Syracuse gantry: $0.11 ($0.12) ($0.14)
Syracuse gantry: $0.18 ($0.21) ($0.23)
I-81 to I-690 Syracuse: $0.30 ($0.34) ($0.38)
I-690 to Canandaigua: $2.57 ($2.96) ($3.35)
Rochester East gantry: $0.17 ($0.20) ($0.22)
Rochester gantry $0.51 ($0.59) ($0.67)
Rochester West gantry: $0.72 $0.83) ($0.94)
I-490 Leroy to I-290 Buffalo: $1.87 ($2.15) ($2.43)
Blasdell to the Westfield exit: $2.48 ($2.85) ($3.23)

Thus, some Thruway computer will charge you a total toll of $18.62 with a NY EZ Pass, $21.43 with an out of state EZ Pass, and $24.21 pay by mail.
https://www.thruway.ny.gov/cashless/locations.html

If you change all the signs on the Thruway, change all the exit numbers, change the font to Clearview, it wouldn't matter. You would be charged based on the gantries you pass through and the toll between Yonkers and Westfield will be the same. This means there's no longer an excuse for three different exit number schemes for I-87 and three different exit number schemes for I-90, one of which operates east to west instead of the federal standard of west to east.

If NY can spend a small fortune on those non-compliant New York State Experience signs, they can renumber I-87 and I-90.

[webny99]

The stretch just west of Herkimer is pretty nice too (not the best picture, but looking down on Frankfort and Ilion): https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0268177,-75.0335144,3a,75y,204.33h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUCFyfQvKNcjU9eH0bIq_kA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Indeed. That would be included in Utica-Amsterdam.

D'oh! Mentally flipped the Utica/Herkimer exits. It's interesting to me how much the character of I-90 changes somewhere around the Canastota exit from these beautiful valley views to straight and flat. This was intensified for me because I used to drive between MA and Syracuse during undergrad, and the few times I drove west to Rochester or Buffalo I almost felt like I was on another road.

Yeah, I agree, except that being from west of Syracuse I take the opposite view: it is almost like a different road through the Mohawk Valley. 

I'd say the transition zone is from Utica to Canastota. West of there it's extremely boring all the way to Buffalo, and really all the way to the PA line. Aside from Buffalo, the Seneca reservation might be the most interesting segment.. and even that's not particularly noteworthy now that it's finally paved.

[Jim]

I got to enjoy the scenic Mohawk Valley part of the Thruway in travels out and back to Syracuse today.  Got a couple pictures of the billboard Froggie mentioned.




So in the last week or so I've been through or at least seen many of the interchanges from 23 to 36.  I was surprised that the toll plazas at 23 and 31 were still fully intact, as those are both interchanges with a 3di.  25 (for months), 26, 27, and 28 are completely gone, as is 35.  At 36 (I-81 interchange), it looks like they were just removed, as paving was not yet complete with a bit of a dip in one lane, and some crazy extra lines still evident.