NY-NJ Hudson River Crossings

[Alps]

Catchall topic for news relating to all of the Port Authority crossings.

First item: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12/16/2-upper-level-lanes-of-gwb-closed-for-emergency-repairs/

The article just glosses over "oh, engineers heard an alarming noise that indicated cracked beams." I would LOVE to find out more about this particularly unsettling concept. Are other beams in danger? What is the nature of the repairs being done? What is this alarming noise? Is it a "ka-thunk" that sounded tinny, or the crunching sound of impending doom?

[cpzilliacus]

The article just glosses over "oh, engineers heard an alarming noise that indicated cracked beams." I would LOVE to find out more about this particularly unsettling concept. Are other beams in danger? What is the nature of the repairs being done? What is this alarming noise? Is it a "ka-thunk" that sounded tinny, or the crunching sound of impending doom?

Perhaps a better question might be - where are all of those toll dollars collected from motorists driving from North Jersey to Manhattan going? 

How much of the money is diverted to subsidize the PATH trains?

How much of the money goes to Port Authority real estate deals that have nothing to do with the Port's transportation assets?

[jeffandnicole]

The article just glosses over "oh, engineers heard an alarming noise that indicated cracked beams." I would LOVE to find out more about this particularly unsettling concept. Are other beams in danger? What is the nature of the repairs being done? What is this alarming noise? Is it a "ka-thunk" that sounded tinny, or the crunching sound of impending doom?

Perhaps a better question might be - where are all of those toll dollars collected from motorists driving from North Jersey to Manhattan going? 

How much of the money is diverted to subsidize the PATH trains?

How much of the money goes to Port Authority real estate deals that have nothing to do with the Port's transportation assets?

How much money is going to subsidize the new World Trade Center?

[NE2]

How much is going to wars for cheap gas?

[Alps]

How much is going to wars for cheap gas?

Not something the Port Authority pays for. Please stay on topic.

[Alps]

The article just glosses over "oh, engineers heard an alarming noise that indicated cracked beams." I would LOVE to find out more about this particularly unsettling concept. Are other beams in danger? What is the nature of the repairs being done? What is this alarming noise? Is it a "ka-thunk" that sounded tinny, or the crunching sound of impending doom?

Perhaps a better question might be - where are all of those toll dollars collected from motorists driving from North Jersey to Manhattan going? 

How much of the money is diverted to subsidize the PATH trains?

How much of the money goes to Port Authority real estate deals that have nothing to do with the Port's transportation assets?

How much money is going to subsidize the new World Trade Center?

The single biggest money sink in the system.
I'll say this, though- I don't know that money isn't flowing to the crossings to keep them in good shape. When you look at how high the tolls are, and how busy the crossings are, there's a lot of extra money to go around.

[Zeffy]

The single biggest money sink in the system.
I'll say this, though- I don't know that money isn't flowing to the crossings to keep them in good shape. When you look at how high the tolls are, and how busy the crossings are, there's a lot of extra money to go around.

Aren't the bridge tolls into x part of NYC absurdly high? I remember some bridge having a $15 toll or somewhere around there, but I don't know which bridge it was. With all that money being sucked out of our pockets, I really want to know where that money is going, because it sure looks like it isn't going to anything that benefits the public.

[empirestate]

Aren't the bridge tolls into x part of NYC absurdly high? I remember some bridge having a $15 toll or somewhere around there, but I don't know which bridge it was. With all that money being sucked out of our pockets, I really want to know where that money is going, because it sure looks like it isn't going to anything that benefits the public.

High, perhaps–but remember that the toll into NY is only half what you are charged upon entering. P.A. crossings charge tolls in one direction, so you pay for the round trip upon entering the city.

[PHLBOS]

Aren't the bridge tolls into x part of NYC absurdly high? I remember some bridge having a $15 toll or somewhere around there, but I don't know which bridge it was. With all that money being sucked out of our pockets, I really want to know where that money is going, because it sure looks like it isn't going to anything that benefits the public.

High, perhaps–but remember that the toll into NY is only half what you are charged upon entering. P.A. crossings charge tolls in one direction, so you pay for the round trip upon entering the city.

Other metropolitan regions charge one-way tolls for their facilities as well and their one-way rates are nowhere near as high.

For comparision purposes; the toll for the four DRPA bridges in the Delaware Valley is $5 one-way and the Boston Harbor tunnels (Sumner & Ted Williams) is $3.50 one-way.

IIRC, that $15 one-way toll is the cash rate that the MTA charges for the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge (I-278); a facility that does not cross state lines.  The PANYNJ cash tolls rate for their Hudson River crossings is $13 one-way.

[cpzilliacus]

[Snipped]

I'll say this, though- I don't know that money isn't flowing to the crossings to keep them in good shape. When you look at how high the tolls are, and how busy the crossings are, there's a lot of extra money to go around.

That, sir, is exactly the point.  Even though the GWB has been in operation for a long time, with plenty of truck traffic, it seems (to me) that the Port Authority collects enough dinero to keep this bridge and the other spans and tunnels in immaculate condition. 

[cpzilliacus]

Other metropolitan regions charge one-way tolls for their facilities as well and their one-way rates are nowhere near as high.

MdTA charges $4 (two way tolling) to cross Baltimore Harbor (I-95, I-695 and I-895), though for frequent users, those tolls are steeply discounted.

For comparision purposes; the toll for the four DRPA bridges in the Delaware Valley is $5 one-way and the Boston Harbor tunnels (Sumner & Ted Williams) is $3.50 one-way.

Presumably some part of the DRPA toll revenues are diverted to PATCO.  I don't know if Massachusetts diverts toll revenue to transit subsidies.  Do they?

IIRC, that $15 one-way toll is the cash rate that the MTA charges for the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge (I-278); a facility that does not cross state lines.  The PANYNJ cash tolls rate for their Hudson River crossings is $13 one-way.

We know that the NYMTA diverts millions and millions of dollars from its Bridge and Tunnel customers to subsidize its many (money-losing) transit operations.

For all the talk about how wonderful transit in New York City is (and it is the best in the U.S. in terms of total boardings and modal share), it may also be the most highway- and auto-dependent transit system in the nation.

[cpzilliacus]

Aren't the bridge tolls into x part of NYC absurdly high? I remember some bridge having a $15 toll or somewhere around there, but I don't know which bridge it was. With all that money being sucked out of our pockets, I really want to know where that money is going, because it sure looks like it isn't going to anything that benefits the public.

For the NYMTA Bridge and Tunnel crossings (all intrastate), the answer is simple: transit subsidies.

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: For Chris Christie, lane closures at N.J. bridge attract scrutiny if not scandal

TOLLROADSnews: Poorly executed toll lane reallocation trial at Geo Washington Bridge escalates - two top execs of PANYNJ are out in political furorep

The whole sorry affair began, we're told, as a routine move to allocate scarce toll lane capacity better at the main upper level toll plaza and improve flow through the toll plaza and improve travel times.

With three lanes in a local entry ramp and motorists in the left lane tending to generate turbulence in much larger flows of traffic from the NJ Turnpike and I-80. Abrupt geometrics at the entry are a legacy from the days when all vehicles stopped fully to pay the toll and there were slow but orderly queues. Nowadays a large proportion of motorists are equipped with E-ZPass electronic toll transponders and they expect to roll through the tolls at 25mph or more, making the uncontrolled merge of three lanes a hazard. So in the morning peak hours it became normal practice to use cones to make all three right hand toll lanes exclusive to local traffic.

[PHLBOS]

I don't know if Massachusetts diverts toll revenue to transit subsidies.  Do they?

All tolled harbor crossings are now handled by MassDOT.  The 2 tunnels (3 if one counts the Callahan when it used to be tolled prior to 1983) were originally part of the MTA (Massachusetts Turnpike Authority) and the Tobin (Mystic) Bridge was originally part of MassPort.

While I do not believe that MTA nor MassPort revenue was ever diverted to transit; today, MassDOT's revenue could be; Roadman can confirm/correct.

[NJRoadfan]

Yesterday's incident (actually two separate problems on the outgoing side of the bridge) is the 2nd time lanes had to be closed for emergency work on the George Washington Bridge in the past month.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/12/11/2-outbound-lanes-of-george-washington-bridge-closed-until-morning-for-repairs/

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/all-lanes-open-after-emergency-repairs-made-to-george-washington-bridge/

Whoever is doing this rehab. on metal plates isn't doing a good job.

[mtantillo]

I don't know if Massachusetts diverts toll revenue to transit subsidies.  Do they?

All tolled harbor crossings are now handled by MassDOT.  The 2 tunnels (3 if one counts the Callahan when it used to be tolled prior to 1983) were originally part of the MTA (Massachusetts Turnpike Authority) and the Tobin (Mystic) Bridge was originally part of MassPort.

While I do not believe that MTA nor MassPort revenue was ever diverted to transit; today, MassDOT's revenue could be; Roadman can confirm/correct.

Lets not forget that MassPike spends plenty of toll revenue to pay for the Big Dig. 

[mtantillo]

Aren't the bridge tolls into x part of NYC absurdly high? I remember some bridge having a $15 toll or somewhere around there, but I don't know which bridge it was. With all that money being sucked out of our pockets, I really want to know where that money is going, because it sure looks like it isn't going to anything that benefits the public.

High, perhaps—but remember that the toll into NY is only half what you are charged upon entering. P.A. crossings charge tolls in one direction, so you pay for the round trip upon entering the city.

Other metropolitan regions charge one-way tolls for their facilities as well and their one-way rates are nowhere near as high.

For comparision purposes; the toll for the four DRPA bridges in the Delaware Valley is $5 one-way and the Boston Harbor tunnels (Sumner & Ted Williams) is $3.50 one-way.

IIRC, that $15 one-way toll is the cash rate that the MTA charges for the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge (I-278); a facility that does not cross state lines.  The PANYNJ cash tolls rate for their Hudson River crossings is $13 one-way.

To do a fair comparison though, the E-ZPass rates and/or commuter toll rates need to be examined, and not the cash toll rates.  Especially at toll facilities where upwards of 80-90% of users pay electronically, and especially where the vast majority of local residents have a locally issued E-ZPass tag.  The $15 toll to enter Staten Island from Brooklyn via the Verrazano Bridge is very high, but few people pay that much (less than 20% I think).  The vast majority of occasional users are using a NY-issued E-ZPass, and pay $10.66, and the vast majority of commuters are Staten Island residents paying $6.00.  In otherwords, saying "it costs so much to drive back and forth to Staten Island everyday, a $15 toll!" is a bit unfair since regular commuters would never be paying that much. 

Delaware River Port Authority: $5.00 (one way) cash, E-ZPass, commuters, everyone

Burlington County Bridge Commission (reasonably close alternate for some S NJ to Philly commuters): $2.00 (one way) cash, E-ZPass, commuters, everyone

Boston Harbor Tunnels (one way toll collection): $3.50 cash/non-MA E-ZPass, $3.00 MA E-ZPass, $0.30 North End/Eastie/Southie residents

Port Authority crossings into Manhattan (one way toll collection): $13 cash, $11 peak E-ZPass (all), $9.00 off-peak E-ZPass

Port Authority crossings into Staten Island (one way toll collection): $13 cash, $11 peak E-ZPass (all), $9.00 off-peak E-ZPass (all), $5.50 NY or NJ E-ZPass with PASI commuter plan (minimum of 3 trips per month, anyone can qualify).

MTA Bridges and Tunnels (one way tolls, each way): $7.50 cash/non-NY E-ZPass, $5.33 NY E-ZPass

Verrazano Narrows Bridge (one way onto Staten Island): $15 cash/non-NY E-ZPass, $10.66 NY E-ZPass, $6.36 Staten Island residents for 1 or 2 trips per month, $6.00 Staten Island residents for 3 or more trips per month. 

[Duke87]

That, sir, is exactly the point.  Even though the GWB has been in operation for a long time, with plenty of truck traffic, it seems (to me) that the Port Authority collects enough dinero to keep this bridge and the other spans and tunnels in immaculate condition.

With New York City construction costs? You'd be surprised.

Or, for that matter, with New York City contractor ethics. Quality workmanship is very difficult to come by, especially when as a government agency you are required by law to award every job to the lowest bidder.

[cpzilliacus]

That, sir, is exactly the point.  Even though the GWB has been in operation for a long time, with plenty of truck traffic, it seems (to me) that the Port Authority collects enough dinero to keep this bridge and the other spans and tunnels in immaculate condition.

With New York City construction costs? You'd be surprised.

Yeah, that's correct.

Or, for that matter, with New York City contractor ethics. Quality workmanship is very difficult to come by, especially when as a government agency you are required by law to award every job to the lowest bidder.

Harder to define than "lowest responsible bidder," but I think a better approach is "best lifecycle cost" (but I concede that it's much more difficult to define that, especially for repair work.  Though on the other hand, I presume and hope that the Port Authority has construction inspectors that look over the work (during and after construction).

[Duke87]

The problem with going by who costs the least in the long run rather than who costs the least up front is that determining who that is requires exercising judgment based on the known practices of a bidder in a subjective manner. Which you can't do with government work because then you'll get accused of being unfair or playing favorites.

Besides, any good contractor knows how to find holes in the way a specification is written and make money on change orders to "fix" things whenever the spirit of the spec does not precisely match the letter of the spec. You can't avoid this by not going with the lowest bidder because every bidder will do it. Some may just do it more than others. Agencies battle this by making sure they write extremely detailed specifications. But then doing that takes time and drives the design cost of the job up.

[PHLBOS]

To do a fair comparison though, the E-ZPass rates and/or commuter toll rates need to be examined, and not the cash toll rates.  Especially at toll facilities where upwards of 80-90% of users pay electronically, and especially where the vast majority of local residents have a locally issued E-ZPass tag.

Mike, my reasoning for only comparing the cash rates was based on simplicity and the fact that most if not all EZ-Pass accounts now charge an annual fee for their transponders.  Depending on who's (agencywise) transponder one has; they may actually pay paying more than the cash rate if usage such facilities are not part of their normal commute (in short, they seldom use them).  Additionally, not all transponders are elligible for many of the listed discounted EZ-Pass rates.  Such restrictions do vary by agency and transponders issued by an outside agency typically get charged the cash rate toll in those restricted discounted locations.  Example: my PTC-issued EZ-Pass will not receive the discounted EZ-Pass toll rate for the Verrazano.

Either way, most if not all of the disounted EZ-Pass toll rates for the NYC-area facilities are still higher (in some instances significantly higher) than their Boston or Philly-area counterparts; so my earlier point & comparisons still stands.

Yes, the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority spends much of its toll revenue for the Big Dig; but at least the I-90 extension (the Ted Williams Tunnel, its toll plaza and the connector tunnel (aka The Liberty Tunnel)) was part of the Big Dig Project.  The main reason why the I-93 portion (the O'Neill Tunnel) wasn't tolled was because Federal law prohibited (and still prohibits IIRC) the tolling of an existing free Interstate corridor.  The waivers allowing such were only a recent development and are thankfully few and far between.

Presumably some part of the DRPA toll revenues are diverted to PATCO.

While some DPRA bridge toll revenue subsidizes PATCO; the main issue with that agency is that for nearly a decade or two, much of the toll revenue was diverted to non-transportation-related development projects (examples: the Kimmel Center and the National Constitution Center).  Had that not happened (for some reason it's impossible to halt/divert previously allocated development money to where it should have gone); the bridge tolls wouldn't have needed to be increased to $5 to raise funds for needed repair/improvements for the bridges themselves.  The money to do such would've already been on hand.

[froggie]

Technically, MassDOT could request application of tolls in the O'Neill Tunnel as part of the Value Pricing Pilot Program.

[roadman]

I don't know if Massachusetts diverts toll revenue to transit subsidies.  Do they?

All tolled harbor crossings are now handled by MassDOT.  The 2 tunnels (3 if one counts the Callahan when it used to be tolled prior to 1983) were originally part of the MTA (Massachusetts Turnpike Authority) and the Tobin (Mystic) Bridge was originally part of MassPort.

While I do not believe that MTA nor MassPort revenue was ever diverted to transit; today, MassDOT's revenue could be; Roadman can confirm/correct.

No Massachusetts Turnpike Authority ** or MassPort toll revenue was ever diverted to transit.  Likewise, no MassDOT toll revenue is currently diverted to transit.  This is largely because the Boston area's transit system, or MBTA, although overseen by MassDOT in theory, is still an independent agency with its own management structure and board of directors (much like the Turnpike Authority was before it was abolished with the MassDOT merger).

**  note that I intentionally spelled out the name because, in Boston speak, MTA also stands for Massachusetts Teachers Association and Metropolitan Transportation Authority (precursor to the current MBTA)

[vdeane]

To do a fair comparison though, the E-ZPass rates and/or commuter toll rates need to be examined, and not the cash toll rates.  Especially at toll facilities where upwards of 80-90% of users pay electronically, and especially where the vast majority of local residents have a locally issued E-ZPass tag.

Mike, my reasoning for only comparing the cash rates was based on simplicity and the fact that most if not all EZ-Pass accounts now charge an annual fee for their transponders.  Depending on who's (agencywise) transponder one has; they may actually pay paying more than the cash rate if usage such facilities are not part of their normal commute (in short, they seldom use them).  Additionally, not all transponders are elligible for many of the listed discounted EZ-Pass rates.  Such restrictions do vary by agency and transponders issued by an outside agency typically get charged the cash rate toll in those restricted discounted locations.  Example: my PTC-issued EZ-Pass will not receive the discounted EZ-Pass toll rate for the Verrazano.

Either way, most if not all of the disounted EZ-Pass toll rates for the NYC-area facilities are still higher (in some instances significantly higher) than their Boston or Philly-area counterparts; so my earlier point & comparisons still stands.

Yes, the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority spends much of its toll revenue for the Big Dig; but at least the I-90 extension (the Ted Williams Tunnel, its toll plaza and the connector tunnel (aka The Liberty Tunnel)) was part of the Big Dig Project.  The main reason why the I-93 portion (the O'Neill Tunnel) wasn't tolled was because Federal law prohibited (and still prohibits IIRC) the tolling of an existing free Interstate corridor.  The waivers allowing such were only a recent development and are thankfully few and far between.

Presumably some part of the DRPA toll revenues are diverted to PATCO.

While some DPRA bridge toll revenue subsidizes PATCO; the main issue with that agency is that for nearly a decade or two, much of the toll revenue was diverted to non-transportation-related development projects (examples: the Kimmel Center and the National Constitution Center).  Had that not happened (for some reason it's impossible to halt/divert previously allocated development money to where it should have gone); the bridge tolls wouldn't have needed to be increased to $5 to raise funds for needed repair/improvements for the bridges themselves.  The money to do such would've already been on hand.

The NY agencies are required by law to have no annual fee.  Note that the Port Authority is classified as a NJ agency for the purposes of said law (but not for giving transponders to out of state people who register in NY, which is just one of many ways the state likes to screw with people).

[PHLBOS]

The NY agencies are required by law to have no annual fee.

However, laws can change or be repealed. 

Once upon a time banks that had ATMs in CT were barred from charging fees to those who used machines that were not owned by their bank (aka foreign ATMs).  Then some banks legally challenged CT's fee ban, won and had the ban tossed.

I could easily see a similar legal stunt maneuver happening w/the NY agencies once more people get hooked with their transponders in the foreseeable future.