New York City as a control city and other important control citys in MA on I-95

[jeffandnicole]

For the most part, when people say they're going to New York around here, they mean New York City...and mostly the Manhattan area.  They'd be a little more specific sometimes if they mean another borough.  Long Island means Long Island (although if not clear, it can be confused with Jersey's Long Beach Island).  If they're going elsewhere, then it's "New York State".

[A00234826]

For the most part, when people say they're going to New York around here, they mean New York City...and mostly the Manhattan area.  They'd be a little more specific sometimes if they mean another borough.  Long Island means Long Island (although if not clear, it can be confused with Jersey's Long Beach Island).  If they're going elsewhere, then it's "New York State".

Agreed on I-84 in Ct near the NY border they use to say (I-84 west New York State) so people will know there entering NY but not the city of NY

[Pete from Boston]

I've been told that "New York" (as opposed to something like Springfield or Albany NY) was included on that sign (which was installed about 1996) to enable the ancient support truss to be re-used - remember, this was the height of the "reuse existing sign supports wherever possible" era in Massachusetts.

IIRC, that particular BGS and gantry replaced the original 60s-era button-copy BGS (legend likely read Mass Pike Points West) and single-post style gantry.  Looking at the GSV of the current BGS & gantry, one can clearly tell that the gantry is not from the mid-60s.

The likely real reason for the Turnpike Authority using New York for its I-90 West entrance ramp signage for that area is to direct the various NYC-bound busses from the bus terminal(s) that were/are in that area.

hmm why not stay on I-95 because it gose to NY city, there other ways to get to NY city from Boston without paying the mass pike like I-93 (southeast expressway)south to Canton to Exit 1 to I-95 south (toll free)
from the south like Cape Cod I suggest to put up on Rt-25 entering I-195 (I-195 west Providence RI, New York City)
I also suggest on I-93 south Braintree split a sign (New York City use I-93 to I-95 south)

Let's get one thing straight — there's a limited amount of space and driver attention to go around.  If someone there is going to New York and needs to be told not to take Route 3 to do it, they are in a very small minority.  It doesn't warrant the sign.

As far as 95 to New York, I'm guessing you're not a seasoned driver from Boston to New York because this route is 20+ miles longer and involves a very underpowered two-lane section of 95 in Connecticut that has the propensity to quickly become very slow.  Furthermore, 90 to 84 gives one at least three options of through route beyond Hartford, along with many more ways to switch between them if traffic is bad.

I can see you are really fond of 95, but the small Mass Pike toll is worth it for the quality of trip it ultimately provides.

[PurdueBill]

Amen.  The toll on the Pike is well worth it, especially only out to 84.  (I've also been known to choose to take the Chicago Skyway instead of the Borman and stuff like that, when it's clearly worth the time saved or even just potential frustration saved.)

[Pete from Boston]

Amen.  The toll on the Pike is well worth it, especially only out to 84.  (I've also been known to choose to take the Chicago Skyway instead of the Borman and stuff like that, when it's clearly worth the time saved or even just potential frustration saved.)

I meant to add that most of the toll is negated by the gallon or so of gas saved, making it truly a no-brainer.

[PHLBOS]

Agreed on I-84 in Ct near the NY border they use to say (I-84 west New York State) so people will know there entering NY but not the city of NY

That particular BGS was replaced (it actually read N.Y. State BTW) with its listed control destination as Newburgh, a city that I-84 actually runs through or near.  The change was likely due to the newer practice of no longer listing only states as a control destinations.

With regards to the topic on hand, I have several questions/comments:

1.  During the course of this thread or even before it, did you even look at a road map (or Google/Bing Maps) showing New York (City) & Boston?  IMHO, this would be one case where one picture is worth 1000 words.

2.  After receiving several responses from others (including myself) regarding that using all of I-95 from the Boston area to NYC isn't the wisest (nor shortest) of routes, unless one's either attempting to clinch the route or stopping at key destinations along the way (Providence, Mystic, New London, New Haven, etc.); you're still pressing the issue regarding signing I-95 in MA w/such.  What gives?

3.  In reference to your "Why don't they sign I-93 South to I-95 South w/NYC listings?" (paraphrase, mind you) reply to my stating that the New York reference on the I-90 West BGS at Copley Square was likely used as a means to direct NYC-bound busses (there are a few bus terminals near that area) the easiest & quickest way to get off the local city streets and onto a highway; here's the simple, basic answer.  Backtracking east (through narrow,  crowded city streets) to pick up I-93 South (the Southeast Expressway) to head that far southwest is absolute lunacy.  Remember, these busses have a schedule to reasonably maintain.

4.  The only reasoning behind why NYC appears on I-95 signage as far south as the DC area is likely due to the fact that between Baltimore and NYC; one can take an all-highway routing that has no major metropolitan cities between them... I-295 in DE to the New Jersey Turnpike, which actually isn't part of I-95 south of the PA Turnpike branch-off.

I-95 North/295 North split south of Wilmington, DE: note the NY destination (along w/NJ, though DelDOT messed up the order (the older BGS had it correctly listed as NJ-NY)) is with I-295.

And before you say "that's because of the I-95 gap in NJ"; I believe that it's reasonably safe to state that even if I-95 (the Somerset Freeway) was built, DelDOT would still not have placed NY for the I-95 North destination BGS at the 295 split.

[Henry]

I know what you mean, though, as New York is the proper name of the city.  It is not like Kansas City where "City" part of its name.  NJDOT is starting to do it as well.  I-78, I-80 and even I-287 is using "New York City" whereas before it was just plain and simple "New York."  Even new posts on here of the NJ Turnpike 6-9 new signs has "New York City" instead of "New York" as it did for decades.

I have to wonder if such practice is a result of the recent MUTCD prohibition of listing states as control cities.  Either DOTs are misinterpreting such prohibition or MUTCD (wrongly IMHO) told DOTs to add City to New York listings.

As a Chicago native, I wouldn't expect the control states of "Indiana" and "Wisconsin" to go away anytime soon. And I'm sure there are other examples elsewhere, but I agree that states should not be used as control cities at all. Why not use "Gary" or "Milwaukee" for the respective examples listed above?

[Zeffy]

And before you say "that's because of the I-95 gap in NJ"; I believe that it's reasonably safe to state that even if I-95 (the Somerset Freeway) was built, DelDOT would still not have placed NY for the I-95 North destination BGS at the 295 split.

I agree. Amazingly enough, there are other places on I-95 north that aren't New York (City). Sure, people may be using the highway to head up there, but I think it's rude to ignore the other major points the highway passes through.

[A00234826]

North of Boston I suggest on I-95 south (also on I-93 south and US-3) before the Rt-128 jct to put (To Providence RI, New York City use I-95 Rt-128 south) this is important info for trucks with hazardous material because there banned from I-93 tunnels

also unrelated to that  North of Boston on I-95 northbound between Exit 45 and Exit 60 I suggest (I-95 north Hampton Beach NH, Portsmouth NH) so traffic will know how to get to Hampton Beach resort during the summer.


anyother suggestions please let me know

For North of Boston on I-95 Im just telling them that the hazardous material trucks are banned from using I-93 tunnel in Boston for points south of Boston so they will know how to get on I-90 or any point south or west (ether NY, Cape cod, Fall river, Provdience)  with a sign on side (To I-90 masspike, RI-CT-NY points, use I-95 Rt-128). This is very important for people driving from NH and heading south of Boston because trucks with hazours material need to know that they cant go through Boston tunnels to get on I-90 masspike in Boston or as a shortcut for Rt-128 or I-495.

I also suggest since Hampton Beach is very popular for summer tourst to put (I-95 north Hampton Beach NH) in between Exit 45-60.

also on I-495 I-290 I suggest
ON I-290 west put on Exit 7 (I-90 masspike to I-84, Springfiled, New York) so traffic from I-290 will know where I-84 is
On I-495 south near Exit 25 put ( To I-84 Hartford Ct, New York City use I-290 to Exit 7) becasuse its shorter to take i-290 through Worecester to I-90 insted of remaiing on I-495 south to Westbaro.
On I-290 east and I-495 north I suggest put Portsmouth NH as a control city for example between Worcester and I-495 I suggest (I-290 east to I-495 Marlbaro, Portsmouth NH), and on I-495 north between Marlbaro and Lowell (I-495 North Lowell Portsmouth NH), and north of Lowell (I-495 north Lawerance Portsmouth NH) north of Haverhill (I-495 north to I-95 Portsmouth NH, Portland ME)
ALSO
I-95 near the I-495 jct in Sailsbury I suggest a sign said (I-495 South Worcester, Hartford Ct)
on I-495 south enterence signs north of Exit 28 replase Tauton with Worcester so signs will say (I-495 south Marlbaro, Worcester)
becasue many people from Lowell Lawerence aria to drive to Tauton use I-95 Rt-128 or I-93 to Rt-24 for a more direct route.
On I-495 south between Amesbury and I-290 I suggest on milege signs example after Exit 54 (Lowell 31, Worcester 67, Hartford Ct 132) many commuters use I-495 from NH to get to I-90 masspike for I-84)

last of all I suggest on I-495 near exit 22 I suggest u put (Exit 22 I-90 Masspike (toll) to I-84 Boston, Albany NY) so traffic will take I-90 to I-84
also on masspike between Rt-9 and Rt-122 I suggest sign like (I-90 Masspike west to I-84 Worcester, Springfield) and west of Rt-122 to I-84 (I-90 masspike west to I-84 Springfield, New York Points)

[Pete from Boston]

This is too much to make sense of, but I will point out that on the Mass Pike, the logical exits for New Hampshire, Maine, the Cape, Providence, and New York are all well signed.

I realize that you feel strongly that all roads lead to New York, and all traffic should be reminded when it's time to turn to get to New York.  But that's just not how things are done.  You don't see signs in Syracuse or Pittsburgh fir Chicago, either, for the same reason.

People have maps, fancy electric ones.  Signs aren't meant to replace maps.   Maps of today tell you every distance of your own personal trip.  Signing for all major destinations is less necessary now than ever.

Also, I don't think Hampton Beach is the magnitude of destination you think it is.

[roadman]

Also, I don't think Hampton Beach is the magnitude of destination you think it is.

Well put Pete from Boston.  I'll also add this - On I-95 northbound, the signs for the last exit in Massachusetts read "MA 286 (shield) Beaches Salisbury."  Now, this seems to have been sufficient for the past fifty or so years since Interstate 95 was first constructed.

[roadman65]

Actually Portland, ME is more better to use for NB I-95 over Portsmouth, NH.  However, I am not going to lose sleep over it and recommend that MA take down the signs or use it next sign placement project that takes place.  I am just saying that Portland is the better one of the two places I think.

[roadman]

Actually Portland, ME is more better to use for NB I-95 over Portsmouth, NH.  However, I am not going to lose sleep over it and recommend that MA take down the signs or use it next sign placement project that takes place.  I am just saying that Portland is the better one of the two places I think.

Once you get north of the US 1 interchange at the Topsfield/Danvers line, a number of entrance signs for I-95 north do have two destinations.  Starts with "Salisbury Portsmouth NH", which then changes to "Portsmouth NH Kittery ME" as you get closer to the NH line.  I once was told that, years ago, Kittery was chosen over Portland at the explicit request of the State of Maine (and not just MaineDOT) because of the outlet stores within Kittery itself.

Personally, I agree that Portland is a better destination than Kittery.  However, like you, I do not believe that it should be plastered all over I-95 north and I-495 north once you leave Mansfield (MA).

[hotdogPi]

Actually Portland, ME is more better to use for NB I-95 over Portsmouth, NH.  However, I am not going to lose sleep over it and recommend that MA take down the signs or use it next sign placement project that takes place.  I am just saying that Portland is the better one of the two places I think.

Once you get north of the US 1 interchange at the Topsfield/Danvers line, a number of entrance signs for I-95 north do have two destinations.  Starts with "Salisbury Portsmouth NH", which then changes to "Portsmouth NH Kittery ME" as you get closer to the NH line.  I once was told that, years ago, Kittery was chosen over Portland at the explicit request of the State of Maine (and not just MaineDOT) because of the outlet stores within Kittery itself.

Personally, I agree that Portland is a better destination than Kittery.  However, like you, I do not believe that it should be plastered all over I-95 north and I-495 north once you leave Mansfield (MA).

Portsmouth and Portland on the same sign would be confusing.

[KEVIN_224]

There's one sign I would change on I-95, but has nothing to do with New York City. It's this one in Kittery, ME:



Change it to Hampton, NH/Boston. Thank you! 

[shadyjay]

Close, but not quite.... I'd change it to Portsmouth / Boston, just like its counterpart was changed on US 1 South on the ramp to I-95 South at this point.  It used to have control points same as the I-95 SB pullthrough.

[southshore720]

I actually like the "New Hampshire/Massachusetts" pairing.  I know it's not MUTCD compliant, but how often do we embrace all of the MUTCD changes?

[KEVIN_224]

Imagine I-91 North in Enfield saying "MASSACHUSETTS | VERMONT"? I'll stick with Springfield, Greenfield and Brattleboro, thank you.

[swbrotha100]

"New Jersey" is used as a control city on some highways in Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New York.

As far as "New York" or "New York City" as a control city, it should probably be used as a secondary listing until the highway you're on is closer to the city.

[amroad17]

Don't forget that New York is on some BGS's at the I-76/I-80 interchange west of Youngstown, OH as well on those on I-80 from there to the OH/PA line.

[Pete from Boston]

Don't forget that New York is on some BGS's at the I-76/I-80 interchange west of Youngstown, OH as well on those on I-80 from there to the OH/PA line.

Don't forget that the next city 80 passes through that's as big as Youngstown is Paterson, NJ, 15 miles from New York. 

[Zeffy]

For the most part, when people say they're going to New York around here, they mean New York City...and mostly the Manhattan area.  They'd be a little more specific sometimes if they mean another borough.  Long Island means Long Island (although if not clear, it can be confused with Jersey's Long Beach Island).  If they're going elsewhere, then it's "New York State".

For me, it's:

'The city' - Manhattan
New York City - Brooklyn/Manhattan
NYC - Same as above
New York - Brooklyn

I don't go to the beach so those phrases are irrelevant. Don't ask me why New York is associated with Brooklyn. Maybe because that's the most common part of NYC (or, heck, New York in general) I visit on a (at minimum) yearly-basis.

Don't forget that the next city 80 passes through that's as big as Youngstown is Paterson, NJ, 15 miles from New York. 

Everyone loves New York. That's why it gets so much attention when it comes to control cities on pullthroughs.

[roadman65]

What is interesting is that Staten Island is not considered part of NYC, especially along the NJ Turnpike.  Even from the entrance to the NJT at Elizabeth from I-278, signs used to read "New York AND North" at the split in the ramp despite that part of NYC is directly across the Arthur Kill from there.

In fact the NJT signs "New York" for the whole length mainly using the GW Bridge as the point of reference for the city.  The mileage sign that once stood NB at the Raritan River Bridge once stated "New York 30 MI" which would suggest that the NJTA was using the Bridge as the point of mileage as that is where 30 miles north of there would be about.

Even NJDOT on US 22 signs "New York" as control point straight through past NJ 82 which is US 22's exit for the Goethals Bridge into Staten Island.  Also in Bridgewater, NYC is pull through control point on US 22 EB at I-287 JCT where I-287 SB would be US 22's exit for those going to Staten Island via the Outerbridge Crossing.  I-287 uses Perth Amboy (next to Staten Island) on the signs for I-287 SB along US 22.

[bzakharin]

The LIE does change its control city from "New York" to "Manhattan" once it enters Queens. I-95 South appears to be using "G. Washington Br." after entering the Bronx, but "New York" north of it, so the New York State seems to agree that other Boroughs are part of New York.

Do the northbound mileage signs to New York along I-95 from Baltimore refer to the George Washington Bridge via the NJ Turnpike or something else?

[ixnay]

Regarding "New York" versus "New York State," my relatives in Brooklyn always regarded "New York" (the city) as referring to the island of Manhattan. The 1898 consolidation might as well never have happened. Of course, Yonkers is Upstate to them too!

I always considered Upstate NY to be everything north of the line separating Rockland and Westchester Cos. on the south from Orange and Putnam Cos. on the north.

ixnay