Your opinion: has Major League Soccer turned the “Big Four” into the “Big Five”?

Started by KCRoadFan, October 18, 2021, 07:58:44 PM

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JayhawkCO

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match.  It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.

Chris

"Every Match" equals 17 home games.  Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.

Sigh.

2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440

Next?

Chris


JayhawkCO

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.

If we're arguing about grammatical articles as a way to define if more people care about a sport than another sport... I think we may have jumped the shark.

Chris

JayhawkCO

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.

Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.

Chris

CoreySamson

Didn't MLS usually air on ESPN on Sunday afternoons? Or am I remembering something wrong?

Anyways, the MLS is definitely on a higher level than, say, the WNBA or minor league baseball. I think they're definitely a "big five" sport... in the right market. Markets with established fanbases in other sports (NYC, New England, Philadelphia) seem to reject MLS more than other markets (PNW, Atlanta) that have newer franchises. And in still other markets, I think teams aren't popular because they aren't good (Texas's MLS teams all suck right now, and no one watches them because of it). The Dynamo were popular when they first came into the league and their loyal fans are still super passionate about them. You still hear about them on the local news. I would certainly watch them more if they were a little more competitive.
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TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:40:31 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:31:34 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:27:38 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker for advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

You could just as easily be talking about the NHL.

Chris

I don't agree that they're comparable given the NHL's new contracts with Turner and ESPN and the hype around the NHL going back to ESPN after a 17-year absence.

Then we'll agree to disagree I suppose.  But ask NBC Sports why they didn't compete for the contract.

Chris

NBC thought they'd get a sweetheart deal/discount from the NHL for helping save the sport after the mid-2000s lockout, which they did not, so they didn't push hard to renew.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Bruce

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 18, 2021, 10:25:09 PM
Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:17:05 PM
MLS is firmly within the right range to call itself a major league in this country, with comparable numbers to the NHL in all but broadcast revenue (because there's a long-standing anti-soccer bias in American media that is hard to crack). And it's still growing while many of the traditional leagues are stagnating and losing their younger markets.

There's no anti-soccer or anti-any-sport bias. The media shows what makes them money. If soccer was a moneymaker with advertisers, it would be on more. And let's not pretend MLS is buried on some third-tier channels that 50 people have access to; ESPN, FOX, and NBC have or had their turns with it, and to them it's filler, not feature programming.

ESPN bumps down most games to ESPN2 and sometimes to far-flung channels like ESPN-U if the preceding event might run overtime. And when an MLS match runs over its timeslot, it gets bumped instead of staying on the same channel!

And even for the U.S. men's national team, CBS has decided to stick all their coverage on Paramount+ instead of trying to find space at CBSN or CBS proper.

And coverage is not limited to just TV broadcasts. Even in a market where the MLS team is as visible and well-supported as Seattle, our local sports radio stations will talk about teams in their offseason instead of the in-form, in-season Sounders. It's no wonder they're dying among the 18-34 demo.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match.  It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.

Chris

"Every Match" equals 17 home games.  Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.

Sigh.

2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440

Next?

Chris

It's a one-off, and the Hawks had a miserable record that year.

Compare attendance totals for every other Big 4 team to the minor league MLS.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it. 

Alps

Revenues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

NFL, MLB, NBA, Premier League, NHL, in that order. MLS has 1/4 the revenue of NHL, which has about 60% the revenue of NBA. Per team, NHL falls somewhat but is still 4x MLS. Per match, F1 is on top, MLB is below Australian football, and NHL is nearly double MLS. So no. Big Four and Medium Fifth.

Takumi

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 18, 2021, 10:29:41 PM
Given that a lot of people don't even know how to refer to the league (there's no such thing as "the MLS"), it's hard to argue it's anywhere close to the other four.
Eh, to be fair, I'm seeing a growing amount of people saying "the MLB"  in recent years. It's just MLB, like it is just MLS.
Quote from: Rothman on July 15, 2021, 07:52:59 AM
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Don't @ me. Seriously.

Bruce

MLS is still finding a foothold, so fans do have a stake in the popularity game. If the American mainstream perceives it as among the top leagues of this country, then better TV contracts will follow, thus allowing the level of play on the field to rise. Before the current TV contract (signed in 2014, to expire next year), MLS minimum salaries were in the $40K range after COL adjustments, which is nuts for some of the markets. Nowadays it's $70,250 and set to rise to $109,200 by 2024 thanks to the larger TV contracts.

Also, having a healthy (and popular) domestic league helps the national team a ton. The last few games have been won by the MLS guys, not the European products.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 10:55:59 PM
And coverage is not limited to just TV broadcasts. Even in a market where the MLS team is as visible and well-supported as Seattle, our local sports radio stations will talk about teams in their offseason instead of the in-form, in-season Sounders. It's no wonder they're dying among the 18-34 demo.

Lack of Sounders coverage isn't why 18-34 in Seattle (or anywhere) aren't listening to sports radio.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Bruce on October 18, 2021, 11:24:30 PM
MLS is still finding a foothold, so fans do have a stake in the popularity game. If the American mainstream perceives it as among the top leagues of this country, then better TV contracts will follow, thus allowing the level of play on the field to rise. Before the current TV contract (signed in 2014, to expire next year), MLS minimum salaries were in the $40K range after COL adjustments, which is nuts for some of the markets. Nowadays it's $70,250 and set to rise to $109,200 by 2024 thanks to the larger TV contracts.

Also, having a healthy (and popular) domestic league helps the national team a ton. The last few games have been won by the MLS guys, not the European products.

See one of the biggest barriers of entry for me with soccer is nationalism.  I can't get into that aspect of sports (especially the Olympics) and the MLS doesn't offer a team in my home city.  Therefore there isn't much to interest me with soccer not the MLS.  Also (this is subjective) on my part but the sport is an absolute bore to me. 

JayhawkCO

Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 11:00:31 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:38:08 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 18, 2021, 10:28:59 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 08:51:14 PM
Sporting Kansas City sells out a 20k stadium every match.  It's the same size as what a basketball or hockey arena is, so 100% I think you can call it the big five.

Chris

"Every Match" equals 17 home games.  Teams in both the NBA & NHL have 41 home games. Expand the MLS season quite a bit more and see if those attendance levels remain the same.

Sigh.

2019 (Pre-Covid) Total attendance:
Atlanta United (MLS) - 892,663
Atlanta Hawks (NBA) - 628,440

Next?

Chris

It's a one-off, and the Hawks had a miserable record that year.

Compare attendance totals for every other Big 4 team to the minor league MLS.

Well, to start with, Atlanta United's attendance in 2019 was higher than any NBA franchise, so that's not a good argument to make.

2019 Seattle Sounders - 684,192
Highest attendance in the Sonics last 10 Years in Seattle - 675,490

Again.  I'm not saying MLS is more popular than the other sports, certainly not the NFL.  I'm saying it's in the conversation though, and hence is part of the "Big Five".

Chris

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.

You're basically proving my point.  You're saying the NHL is somewhat niche.  Yet it's part of the "Big X".  If MLS is similar, why is it not part of the "Big X"?

Chris

Duke87

This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 11:44:10 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 11:15:13 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 10:23:29 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 18, 2021, 10:16:42 PM
I'm talking about professional league play, not about ratings or attendance figures.  Explain to me how the MLS stacks up to the other professional leagues in soccer and how relevant it actually is in the grand scheme of things.  How can the MLS be on the same level as professional leagues that are the at the top of their sport?

Then in my opinion, you're looking at it wrong.  If more Americans spend more time watching and caring about a team in League X than they do about a team in League Y, then it's more important to the country.  Otherwise your claim would say that Ligue 1 in France is more important to Americans than the MLS, because the quality of play is higher.  That's just simply not an accurate statement.

Chris

How so?  Clearly the MLS isn't the premier league in soccer nor ever will be.  I'm not dismissing people being fans of the MLS or it being popular in certain cities (I gave an example in Orlando).  Likewise the NCAA has numerous sports that amongst the most popular for viewing and attendance nationally.  Likewise nothing the NCAA offers is on the same level with premier professional leagues in their respective sports.

I get that some of you want soccer to badly be part of the top level landscape of America sports in terms of relevance and popularity.  That's all well and good but you aren't going to find what you're looking for with the MLS.  I'm a hockey fan, I can accept the fact the sport is largely regional and be content with that.  The fact that hockey isn't for everyone doesn't detract from my enjoyment of it.

You're basically proving my point.  You're saying the NHL is somewhat niche.  Yet it's part of the "Big X".  If MLS is similar, why is it not part of the "Big X"?

Chris

Again, the MLS is not the premier soccer league (nor even close) but the NHL unquestionably is with hockey.  Divorcing potential popularity and revenue how in any way are the two leagues equal in stature in their respective sports?  This would be akin to saying a AA or AAA baseball league is on the same competitive level with the MLB. 

NASCAR isn't exactly a huge way down the revenue list from the MLS.  Would you call that "a premier American sport"  also?  I would argued against that notion a decade when it was actually somewhat common to hear.

JayhawkCO

Quote from: Duke87 on October 18, 2021, 11:51:31 PM
This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.

Baseball is dying and soccer is at the very minimum on the same level as hockey.



Chris

Duke87

Quote from: jayhawkco on October 18, 2021, 11:57:52 PM
Baseball is dying and soccer is at the very minimum on the same level as hockey.

Damn millennials and their kilograms
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Bruce

Quote from: Duke87 on October 18, 2021, 11:51:31 PM
This is 'Murca and we don't watch soccer just like we don't use the metric system.

Ironically soccer is one of the only sports where the non-metric units have stuck around for global use (because of the British). A few examples: the 6-yard and 18-yard boxes (the former of which is actually used in broadcasts), penalty kick spots at 12 yards, the center circle with a radius of 10 yards.

DandyDan

No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.
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JayhawkCO

Quote from: DandyDan on October 19, 2021, 06:47:31 AM
No. Here in Mason City, IA, I have known exactly 4 people who have ever gone to an MLS game. The number who have attended games in MLB, NFL, NHL or NBA is much higher even though you have to go to the Twin Cities to go to the closest team for all those leagues. And the truth is, they aren't all going to the Twin Cities. I know more people here who have gone to Bears games in Chicago than MLS games anywhere.

The plural of anecdote is not data.  Your demographic is also against you.  Late 40's people from rural America likely haven't gone to MLS matches.  It doesn't change the fact that many people have.  Soccer has relatively new popularity.  Of course more people have gone to Twins, Vikings, Bears, etc. games.  They've been around longer.  Minnesota United has only been a team for what, six years?

It's like saying you know more people who have eaten a hamburger than you do who have eaten sushi.  There are probably more places to get burgers in Mason City than there are sushi joints; the sushi places probably haven't been there that long, and there's a culture of going out for burgers in Mason City more than there is one for sushi.  That doesn't mean that, as a whole, in the United States sushi isn't popular.

Chris

hotdogPi

Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.
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JayhawkCO

Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.

No one cares about the ATP, only majors.  PGA is at least above it. UFC is above it. So at best, 8th in the hierarchy?

Chris

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: 1 on October 19, 2021, 07:48:59 AM
Where does tennis rank here? It gets attention during the few days of the year that the tournaments are happening but is completely forgotten the rest of the year.

In terms of domestic popularity the ATP is probably a notch below the PGA tour in terms of domestic popularity.  Interestingly I've found the PGA tour to have some real die hard fandom over the years.  Golf much like Tennis only really tends to get my interest when it comes to big events like a Grand Slam or Major.  I would have to assume the fan base for tennis is more diverse and younger than golf but I could be wrong.

Regarding the UFC that seems to be largely a younger fan base.  Much of the older fan base more or stuck to professional boxing. 



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