NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway go MUTCD!

[jeffandnicole]

(The neon VMSs and the barely-functional speed limit signs needed replacing regardless.)

Do you remember the old variable speed limit signs on the Turnpike that showed white digits when the "normal" limit was displayed, but showed glowing red digits when the limit was lowered?

I do not. When were those posted?

They were around into the 1970's.  The two digits in the speed limit reminded me of a scoreboard.

Here's a later version:



The digits have been replaced when this image was snapped, but this is what they looked like.

The speed limit sign in this picture was the latest version, which are still in use.  They are the ones getting replaced with the LED speed limit signs.  These are simple flip panal signs - the white part is flipped to create the number, and is hidden to reveal the black background when concelled.  There is no color variation.  A side note - this speed limit sign is northbound between Exits 12 & 13 - it's the only one with the well-faded orange border, as at this location is where the regular speed limit drops from 65 mph to 55 mph.

The signs we are talking about, I most certainly do remember back when I was go over the (turnpike) bridge and thru the woods (that lined the turnpike) to my grandparent's house (where my mom took me at least once a week).  I could see the speed limit sign from the turnpike bridge, and would occasionally see them in the red light phase. 

From what I recall, there were individual light bulbs.  Maybe they could light up in both white and red, or maybe they alternated white and red. Not exactly sure how they worked...I was probably between 5 & 10 at the time I recall seeing them.

[PHLBOS]

From what I recall, there were individual light bulbs.  Maybe they could light up in both white and red, or maybe they alternated white and red. Not exactly sure how they worked...I was probably between 5 & 10 at the time I recall seeing them.

The lighted SPEED LIMIT signs I recall seeing circa early-to-mid 1980s along the NJTP featured a 55 outlined in red/orange neon under normal conditions.  During construction/accident/bad weather/etc. periods, a lower speed limit would light up in white individual bulbs depicting the digits.

[roadman65]

From what I recall, there were individual light bulbs.  Maybe they could light up in both white and red, or maybe they alternated white and red. Not exactly sure how they worked...I was probably between 5 & 10 at the time I recall seeing them.

The lighted SPEED LIMIT signs I recall seeing circa early-to-mid 1980s along the NJTP featured a 55 outlined in red/orange neon under normal conditions.  During construction/accident/bad weather/etc. periods, a lower speed limit would light up in white individual bulbs depicting the digits.

I remember that as well.  It was a black on green SPEED LIMIT and before the oil embargo it was a neon orange 60, then after the national 55 the 55 became the orange color.  The reduced speeds were in white.

[cpzilliacus]

From what I recall, there were individual light bulbs.  Maybe they could light up in both white and red, or maybe they alternated white and red. Not exactly sure how they worked...I was probably between 5 & 10 at the time I recall seeing them.

What I remember were units that resembled the image above in terms of the housing and as you describe in the quoted text, small white bulbs (perhaps similar to low-power Christmas tree bulbs?) to form the digits of the "normal" speed limit, and red (possibly neon - like the classic Turnpike VMS units), that formed the digits if a lower-than-normal limit was shown.

[Ned Weasel]

How about the original exit signs with the rounded humps? How about non-reflective button copy and neon-tubed VMS? Nostalgia does not equal better, either.

My point isn't simply an issue of nostalgia.  The current Turnpike guide signs convey a unique message that other freeways mostly lack.  By making the exit number the largest piece of text and placing it in the top-center of the main and only sign panel, and then using an overhead sign containing only "EXIT XX" and an arrow (at most exits), the signage pattern has a subtext that says: "The exit number is the most important piece of information.  You will know it first and foremost.  Your destination, as we are concerned right now, is Exit 4 or 8A or 16E, etc."  It is poetry for the modern world, where places are defined by lines of flowing movement, rather than stationary points.  I would have rather seen the New Jersey Turnpike imposed on the MUTCD than the MUTCD imposed on the New Jersey Turnpike.

And the arrows worked because they described the exact movements.  The "up-rightward curve-up" arrow depicts the deceleration lane movement, which is why it is always placed exactly before the deceleration lane begins.  If I were to make any change to the Turnpike's guide signs, I would have made the exit gore signs consistent so that all of them had the curved arrow instead of some having a simpler straight arrow.

The neon-tubed VMSs would have been cool if letters didn't burn out on a constant basis.  My attitude toward those is more utilitarian.

[roadman65]

Agreed.  The larger exit numbers on the Turnpike did accomplish getting people to refer to the exit as a number rather than a place.  Too bad it did not catch on as a number is easier to identify with than route numbers and names especially when they change quite frequently.  The Garden State Parkway did have them in Essex County featured more than the name and street.  People always use the exit numbers there as well. 

FYI the sign that warns motorists heading north on the GSP in Bloomfield for Hoover Avenue motorists to keep right after the plaza uses the exit number instead of Hoover Avenue mounted to a railroad overpass prior to the Essex Toll Plaza.

[cpzilliacus]

How about the original exit signs with the rounded humps? How about non-reflective button copy and neon-tubed VMS? Nostalgia does not equal better, either.

My point isn't simply an issue of nostalgia.  The current Turnpike guide signs convey a unique message that other freeways mostly lack.  By making the exit number the largest piece of text and placing it in the top-center of the main and only sign panel, and then using an overhead sign containing only "EXIT XX" and an arrow (at most exits), the signage pattern has a subtext that says: "The exit number is the most important piece of information.  You will know it first and foremost.  Your destination, as we are concerned right now, is Exit 4 or 8A or 16E, etc."  It is poetry for the modern world, where places are defined by lines of flowing movement, rather than stationary points.  I would have rather seen the New Jersey Turnpike imposed on the MUTCD than the MUTCD imposed on the New Jersey Turnpike.

And the arrows worked because they described the exact movements.  The "up-rightward curve-up" arrow depicts the deceleration lane movement, which is why it is always placed exactly before the deceleration lane begins.  If I were to make any change to the Turnpike's guide signs, I would have made the exit gore signs consistent so that all of them had the curved arrow instead of some having a simpler straight arrow.

I have no special problem with the way that the Turnpike has been signed for many years, with the exception of some of the minimalist signage that seemed to have been in place southbound approaching Exit 6 since the Turnpike opened to traffic in 1951.

My only other gripes with Turnpike signing have been the THRU TRAFFIC pull through panels (those have been gone from other U.S. freeways for many years), the lack of reassurance assemblies and few or no mileage signs.

A few of the BGS panels on the northbound Turnpike between Exit 1 and Exit 6 also looked terrible (from age) and needed replacement the last time I drove there, about a year ago.

The neon-tubed VMSs would have been cool if letters didn't burn out on a constant basis.  My attitude toward those is more utilitarian.

The stated (un)reliability of those is probably enough reason to replace them.

[roadman65]

Actually the NJT added Mount Laurel to Exit 4, Glassboro to Exit 2, and even the Atlantic City Expressway to Exit 3.  They are improving some.

True mileage signs are needed and so are NJ 495 shields at Exits 16E and 17 instead of implying that NJ 3 goes both east and west there.  A CR 541 shield is needed at Exit 5 and NB approaching the Garden State Parkway should have signs for Albany for cars.  Most people who are going Upstate in NY from South Jersey and points beyond, bypass the NYC area completely and use the GSP as a bypass.  Then Downtown NY should be signed with the Holland Tunnel at Exit 14C being that you have a lot of business travelers from the Newark Airport and traveling the busy I-95 Business Corridor.

The new pull through signs south of Exit 6, are also a step in the right direction.

[vdeane]

How about the original exit signs with the rounded humps? How about non-reflective button copy and neon-tubed VMS? Nostalgia does not equal better, either.

My point isn't simply an issue of nostalgia.  The current Turnpike guide signs convey a unique message that other freeways mostly lack.  By making the exit number the largest piece of text and placing it in the top-center of the main and only sign panel, and then using an overhead sign containing only "EXIT XX" and an arrow (at most exits), the signage pattern has a subtext that says: "The exit number is the most important piece of information.  You will know it first and foremost.  Your destination, as we are concerned right now, is Exit 4 or 8A or 16E, etc."  It is poetry for the modern world, where places are defined by lines of flowing movement, rather than stationary points.  I would have rather seen the New Jersey Turnpike imposed on the MUTCD than the MUTCD imposed on the New Jersey Turnpike.

And the arrows worked because they described the exact movements.  The "up-rightward curve-up" arrow depicts the deceleration lane movement, which is why it is always placed exactly before the deceleration lane begins.  If I were to make any change to the Turnpike's guide signs, I would have made the exit gore signs consistent so that all of them had the curved arrow instead of some having a simpler straight arrow.

The neon-tubed VMSs would have been cool if letters didn't burn out on a constant basis.  My attitude toward those is more utilitarian.

Well, exit tabs place the number in a special place.  Since the Turnpike intends to switch to mileage-based numbers, you have to wean people off the old sequential numbers somehow.

[jeffandnicole]

My only other gripes with Turnpike signing have been the THRU TRAFFIC pull through panels (those have been gone from other U.S. freeways for many years), the lack of reassurance assemblies and few or no mileage signs.

Somehow, the new pull-thru sign at Exit 5 Northbound retains the same substandard message.  The sign states "THRU TRAFFIC, NEXT 7 MILES"

Well, exit tabs place the number in a special place.  Since the Turnpike intends to switch to mileage-based numbers, you have to wean people off the old sequential numbers somehow.

Is that true?  I haven't heard of that yet.

[Mr_Northside]

My point isn't simply an issue of nostalgia.  The current Turnpike guide signs convey a unique message that other freeways mostly lack.  By making the exit number the largest piece of text and placing it in the top-center of the main and only sign panel, and then using an overhead sign containing only "EXIT XX" and an arrow (at most exits), the signage pattern has a subtext that says: "The exit number is the most important piece of information.  You will know it first and foremost.  Your destination, as we are concerned right now, is Exit 4 or 8A or 16E, etc."

Ironically, this is counter to the way I've always operated (not sure what term I want to use there...)
Growing up, as the de-facto family GPS, I'd figure out where we were going and how to get there in advance, and as soon as we'd get onto an interstate, my dad would always ask "What exit number do we want??", and I'd say "I don't remember the exit number, but I know where we're going.  We get off at Route XX / [Locations]".  He would sometimes get annoyed at that method, but I always did know where we were going, so it all worked out.

Even today -and I don't own a GPS- when I figure out how to get somewhere new, I always remember / mentally note the exit I need mostly by the route and/or destinatons of the exit I want.  If I do remember the exit number, I mostly use that knowledge to figure out how far away it is (assuming the exit #'s are mileage based)

[vdeane]

Is that true?  I haven't heard of that yet.

Steve has posted about it a few times.

My point isn't simply an issue of nostalgia.  The current Turnpike guide signs convey a unique message that other freeways mostly lack.  By making the exit number the largest piece of text and placing it in the top-center of the main and only sign panel, and then using an overhead sign containing only "EXIT XX" and an arrow (at most exits), the signage pattern has a subtext that says: "The exit number is the most important piece of information.  You will know it first and foremost.  Your destination, as we are concerned right now, is Exit 4 or 8A or 16E, etc."

Ironically, this is counter to the way I've always operated (not sure what term I want to use there...)
Growing up, as the de-facto family GPS, I'd figure out where we were going and how to get there in advance, and as soon as we'd get onto an interstate, my dad would always ask "What exit number do we want??", and I'd say "I don't remember the exit number, but I know where we're going.  We get off at Route XX / [Locations]".  He would sometimes get annoyed at that method, but I always did know where we were going, so it all worked out.

Even today -and I don't own a GPS- when I figure out how to get somewhere new, I always remember / mentally note the exit I need mostly by the route and/or destinatons of the exit I want.  If I do remember the exit number, I mostly use that knowledge to figure out how far away it is (assuming the exit #'s are mileage based)

It's the opposite in my family.  I do everything by exit numbers but my parents don't care and want routes/destinations.  It might be worth noting that, with the exceptions of US 15, NY 17, and a bunch of stuff downstate, NY doesn't have exit numbers on non-interstate freeways.

[roadman65]

Here is a GSV of the typical NJT overhead at exit signing that replaces the standard gore point exit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=East+Rutherford,+NJ&hl=en&ll=40.798282,-74.077721&spn=0.013872,0.027595&sll=33.078296,-96.785914&sspn=0.015355,0.027595&oq=east+ruther&t=h&hnear=East+Rutherford,+Bergen,+New+Jersey&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.798565,-74.077414&panoid=SZd3ayvOkR9CueMM4d_DGQ&cbp=12,45,,0,0


I do not know if anyone out there feels this set up  is perfect with the way the interchange ramp is.  It is perfect lane control as it shows perfectly that the lane configuration with two lanes exiting and two lanes straight.  I know that it is not too much looked at as being cool in the eyes of the feds due to the lack of exit tab and other information (route #, control cities, etc).  Although, a few hundred yards to the south of here, the proper signage exists denoting the proper motorist information, which is satisfactory.  Also, to mention that New Jersey locals refer to the exit as "16W" rather than the name, so this sign is more helpful than many are aware of.

I would hate to see this one go, as I feel it is perfect in every form.

[Steve D]

Here is a GSV of the typical NJT overhead at exit signing that replaces the standard gore point exit.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=East+Rutherford,+NJ&hl=en&ll=40.798282,-74.077721&spn=0.013872,0.027595&sll=33.078296,-96.785914&sspn=0.015355,0.027595&oq=east+ruther&t=h&hnear=East+Rutherford,+Bergen,+New+Jersey&z=15&layer=c&cbll=40.798565,-74.077414&panoid=SZd3ayvOkR9CueMM4d_DGQ&cbp=12,45,,0,0


I do not know if anyone out there feels this set up  is perfect with the way the interchange ramp is.  It is perfect lane control as it shows perfectly that the lane configuration with two lanes exiting and two lanes straight.  I know that it is not too much looked at as being cool in the eyes of the feds due to the lack of exit tab and other information (route #, control cities, etc).  Although, a few hundred yards to the south of here, the proper signage exists denoting the proper motorist information, which is satisfactory.  Also, to mention that New Jersey locals refer to the exit as "16W" rather than the name, so this sign is more helpful than many are aware of.

I would hate to see this one go, as I feel it is perfect in every form.

That 16W exit ramp bridge does not have a shoulder (gasp!) due to the widening to two lanes years ago.  One of the very few places (probably measured in feet) on the Turnpike that does not have a shoulder.

[ilvny]

This makes me sad.  The funky guide signs with the huge exit numbers and irregularly shaped arrows were part of what made the New Jersey Turnpike special.  Standardized does not equal better.

The New Jersey Turnpike has cool signs.  I also like the old orange signs that describe the road conditions.

[SignBridge]

And the question on my mind is: What caused the Turnpike Authority to finally give in on this issue? As I recall reading, (probably on this board) for years the NJTA basically told the Federal Hwy. Admin. to go fly since the NJT doesn't get any federal funding and is completely self supporting.

In more recent years, I thought I remembered reading something about the FHWA threatening to withhold road funding to NJDOT for their roads, in order to get the NJTA to comply. And I guess it worked. Does anyone here have any other authoritative knowledge on why the Authority finally changed their minds?

And I agree with those above who will miss the distinctive NJT sign system even though I like standardization. I miss the old Connecticut Turnpike blue signs which disapeared in the 1980's when the entire road was re-signed.

[Alps]

And the question on my mind is: What caused the Turnpike Authority to finally give in on this issue? As I recall reading, (probably on this board) for years the NJTA basically told the Federal Hwy. Admin. to go fly since the NJT doesn't get any federal funding and is completely self supporting.

In more recent years, I thought I remembered reading something about the FHWA threatening to withhold road funding to NJDOT for their roads, in order to get the NJTA to comply. And I guess it worked. Does anyone here have any other authoritative knowledge on why the Authority finally changed their minds?

And I agree with those above who will miss the distinctive NJT sign system even though I like standardization. I miss the old Connecticut Turnpike blue signs which disapeared in the 1980's when the entire road was re-signed.

I have the authoritative knowledge, but I'm not actually allowed to divulge it. Is it related to the FHWA and funding? Yes. Is it as you state? No.

[cpzilliacus]

And the question on my mind is: What caused the Turnpike Authority to finally give in on this issue? As I recall reading, (probably on this board) for years the NJTA basically told the Federal Hwy. Admin. to go fly since the NJT doesn't get any federal funding and is completely self supporting.

But it does issue bonds that are tax-favored by the federal government.

Though the book Looking for America on the New Jersey Turnpike does discuss the matter of accredited diplomats to the U.S. or the U.N. breaking the speed limit on the Turnpike, and getting escorted off by the NJSP and told that they are barred from the road, which greatly displeased the State Department.

In more recent years, I thought I remembered reading something about the FHWA threatening to withhold road funding to NJDOT for their roads, in order to get the NJTA to comply. And I guess it worked. Does anyone here have any other authoritative knowledge on why the Authority finally changed their minds?

I don't, and I am indifferent, with the few the exception of the lack of reassurance assemblies and mileage signs.

I do wish that the Turnpike Authority would dispense with the "secret" route numbers of the Parkway and the Turnpike between Exits 1 and 6. 

Especially the Turnpike.  In a perfect world, the Turnpike would apply to FHWA and AASHTO to sign the Turnpike from 1 to 6 as a 3di, perhaps I-895.

[jeffandnicole]

I have the authoritative knowledge, but I'm not actually allowed to divulge it. Is it related to the FHWA and funding? Yes. Is it as you state? No.

Sounds like we need to get together and buy Steve dinner.  And if that doesn't work, buy him a few drinks.  And if that doesn't work, buy him some shots...

[vdeane]

I have the authoritative knowledge, but I'm not actually allowed to divulge it. Is it related to the FHWA and funding? Yes. Is it as you state? No.

Looks like it's NJTA/FHWA conspiracy theory time...

[SignBridge]

Well, I wish I had jeffandnicole's sense of humor. Really Steve, with your post, all you did was open up a Pandora's Box that will lead to all kinds of rumor and speculation that won't be accurate. Teasing us by saying "ha, ha, I know the answer but I won't tell you, ha,ha" really doesn't encourage a candid exchange of accurate information on this board.

And BTW, who doesn't allow you to divulge the info and why not? And if you hadn't teased us with your reply, I wouldn't have to be asking you this...

Sorry to act so confrontational; I've had a bad day re: people giving me wrong and misleading info on important matters and not being forthcoming about why and how it happened.

[SteveG1988]

He has a nondisclosure agreement, he can vaguely hint at stuff, but not divulge anything outright.

[SignBridge]

Maybe I should file a "Freedom-of-Information-Request" with Steve. You'd think it would be public information.

[NJRoadfan]

Maybe I should file a "Freedom-of-Information-Request" with Steve. You'd think it would be public information.

http://www.state.nj.us/turnpike/documents/OPRA.pdf

[cpzilliacus]

Maybe I should file a "Freedom-of-Information-Request" with Steve. You'd think it would be public information.

I don't believe that Steve works for the State of New Jersey, so that would be pretty pointless.