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I-495 and I-270 Managed Lanes

Started by davewiecking, July 11, 2018, 11:41:26 PM

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ran4sh

Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2023, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 23, 2023, 01:15:03 PM
I don't think that's really an issue tbh. (1) despite the common perception that these lanes are for rich people, or the nickname "lexus lanes", the fact is that all income levels are sometimes willing to pay in order to avoid congestion and get to their destination on time,
Those that are more wealthy and have more discretionary income, and aren't cash-strapped, may be more able to pay it everyday


That's the exact point that people think is true but is really not. Wealthy people don't use the lanes every day just because they can. Most wealthy people actually understand that there is a tradeoff between time and money for that kind of decision.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18


sprjus4

Quote from: ran4sh on August 24, 2023, 08:42:13 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on August 23, 2023, 06:30:45 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 23, 2023, 01:15:03 PM
I don't think that's really an issue tbh. (1) despite the common perception that these lanes are for rich people, or the nickname "lexus lanes", the fact is that all income levels are sometimes willing to pay in order to avoid congestion and get to their destination on time,
Those that are more wealthy and have more discretionary income, and aren't cash-strapped, may be more able to pay it everyday


That's the exact point that people think is true but is really not. Wealthy people don't use the lanes every day just because they can. Most wealthy people actually understand that there is a tradeoff between time and money for that kind of decision.
Who is more likely to use it everyday? Someone with an income of $200-300k or more, or some with an income of $40-50k?

ran4sh

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Rothman

Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

froggie

^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.

Rothman

Quote from: froggie on August 25, 2023, 08:05:44 AM
^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.
Makes me wonder if that's just demonstrating inelasticity of demand and the forced higher burden on the poorer classes.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
... it is their decision, you're correct. Someone with a higher income, who is more easily able to afford the higher toll cost, is more likely to use that lane, particularly on a regular basis, than someone who cannot afford it. Of course one off instances, such as the daycare example, or running late to an important event, will occur that will prompt the average middle / lower class person to pay it, but they won't be a regular user.

The more income you have, the less the toll price becomes that noticeable to deter you away. It's a small expense that may be negligible. When you have a lower income and every dollar counts, you cannot afford to pay that toll and it will make a difference.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 08:12:40 AM
Quote from: froggie on August 25, 2023, 08:05:44 AM
^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.
Makes me wonder if that's just demonstrating inelasticity of demand and the forced higher burden on the poorer classes.
That's basically what it is. The burden is being placed significantly more on that poorer class person as opposed to the upper class commuter, even if the lower class person is choosing to pay the toll from time to time.

1995hoo

Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

There may be other reasons, aside from avoiding congestion, why someone elects to use the tolled express lane, however, such as if it provides access to an exit ramp with no counterpart in the general-purpose lanes and use of said express lane ramp makes for a significantly faster or easier trip (such as if it means bypassing a bunch of traffic lights).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

ran4sh

Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 06:51:10 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.
Control cities CAN be off the route! Control cities make NO sense if signs end before the city is reached!

Travel Mapping - Most Traveled: I-40, 20, 10, 5, 95 - Longest Clinched: I-20, 85, 24, 16, NJ Tpk mainline
Champions - UGA FB '21 '22 - Atlanta Braves '95 '21 - Atlanta MLS '18

Rothman



Quote from: ran4sh on August 26, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 06:51:10 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jmacswimmer

The article regarding the announcement from WaPo mentions $500,000 being set aside to purchase the rights to the work already completed, which is (IMHO) another interesting wrinkle in all of this.

Will be interesting to see what happens with the federal grant...on one hand it's in the fed's backyard which might garner some additional pull, but on the other hand there's plenty of competing projects as others have noted. I wonder if MDTA could have any additional involvement as well, especially now that the P3 element of this project is dead. I think they had already been involved in some preliminary toll-range setting even prior to Transurban pulling out...since MDTA would now presumably be responsible for collecting the tolls, I wonder if a bond sale thru MDTA could be another funding source? Or if that would get sticky if a federal grant is also involved...I admittedly don't know about some of those funding quirks, but food for thought  :hmmm:

Link to the WaPo article I mentioned, which I believe is actually a rare non-paywalled WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/08/21/maryland-beltway-traffic-relief-project/
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

bluecountry

Quote from: Rothman on August 26, 2023, 02:44:22 PM


Quote from: ran4sh on August 26, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 06:51:10 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.
What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.

Rothman

Quote from: bluecountry on September 10, 2023, 09:26:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 26, 2023, 02:44:22 PM


Quote from: ran4sh on August 26, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 06:51:10 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.
What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.
There's no such thing as "can't" when it comes to legislation about taxation.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Alps

Quote from: bluecountry on September 10, 2023, 09:26:05 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 26, 2023, 02:44:22 PM


Quote from: ran4sh on August 26, 2023, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 25, 2023, 06:51:10 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on August 25, 2023, 02:51:28 AM
Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.
To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.
What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.
No, the gas tax can easily be pegged to inflation. New Jersey has done that.

The Ghostbuster

I believe the gas tax is obsolete. It's past time to find new funding sources to fund transportation improvements.

1995hoo

Virginia has the "Highway Use Fee" that's imposed on alternative-fuel vehicles like EVs and on more efficient gas-powered vehicles. There's some sort of formula for determining what the fee is for a particular type of car (see below). My wife had to pay it when she renewed the registration for her Acura TLX, but the amount she owed turned out to be a pittance ($12.11, and that's for a two-year registration renewal). A colleague who has a hybrid said he paid around $40.

There is an alternative option where you install some device that lets them track the miles you actually drive, although it doesn't exclude miles driven outside Virginia. That option caps the maximum amount paid at the amount you'd owe if you paid the standard fee.

The following is a partial excerpt from Va Code 46.2-772:

Quote
For an electric motor vehicle, the highway use fee shall be 85 percent of the amount of taxes paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on fuel used by a vehicle with a combined fuel economy of 23.7 miles per gallon for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth, as determined by the Commissioner. For all other fuel-efficient vehicles, the highway use fee shall be 85 percent of the difference between the tax paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on the fuel used by a vehicle with a combined fuel economy of 23.7 miles per gallon for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth in a year, as determined by the Commissioner, and the tax paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on the fuel used by the vehicle being registered for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth in a year, as determined by the Commissioner.

For purposes of this chapter, the Commissioner shall use combined fuel economy as determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle. If the Commissioner is unable to obtain the manufacturer's fuel economy for a vehicle, then the Commissioner shall use the final estimate of average fuel economy, as determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, of (i) all trucks having the same model year as the vehicle being registered, if the vehicle has a gross weight between 6,000 pounds and 10,000 pounds, or (ii) all cars having the same model year as the vehicle. If data is not available for the model year of the vehicle being registered, then the Commissioner shall use available data for the model year that is closest to the model year of the vehicle being registered.

The Commissioner shall update the fees calculated under this section by July 1 of each year.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

davewiecking

Received an email today about upcoming Open Houses (in November), and a link to this project's new website. Not much there yet. www.americanlegionbridge270.com

Plutonic Panda

It looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Rothman

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Mapmikey

Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?

This bridge has not been worked on in nearly 40 years...

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?
I don't believe so...

Are you possibly thinking of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, on the other side of the beltway, which opened in 2006?

Rothman

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 16, 2024, 02:11:53 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?
I don't believe so...

Are you possibly thinking of the Woodrow Wilson Bridge, on the other side of the beltway, which opened in 2006?

No.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

Rothman

Quote from: Mapmikey on June 16, 2024, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?

This bridge has not been worked on in nearly 40 years...

This is definitely not true.  I might be mistaken that a decent rehab happened on it in the last 10-15 years, but work has definitely occurred on the bridge within the last 40, even if it was just painting.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

sprjus4

Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 04:58:44 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on June 16, 2024, 12:31:37 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 16, 2024, 11:48:15 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 16, 2024, 05:56:02 AMIt looks construction on the Legions Bridge could start in 2026 and open by 2032:

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/us4-billion-bridge-and-highway-project

Wasn't there a big project on it within the past 10 years?

This bridge has not been worked on in nearly 40 years...

This is definitely not true.  I might be mistaken that a decent rehab happened on it in the last 10-15 years, but work has definitely occurred on the bridge within the last 40, even if it was just painting.
I wouldn't call painting a "big project" comparable to entire 10-12 lane bridge replacement.



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