New Jersey Turnpike

[bzakharin]

...I don't think I've ever seen a neighborhood as a control point outside the city the neighborhood is in.

Believe it or not, but based on what I think your commuting patterns are, you pass under one nearly everyday. The sign has since been replaced, but I think it's still on there:

https://goo.gl/maps/roexVXw1hfM2

Williamstown is within Monroe.

While you're right that I pass that sign or its equivalent often, and that I didn't know Williamstown was not incorporated, it's not really the type of thing I'm thinking of. I'm looking for something like "The Bronx" or "Harlem" or "Northeast Philadelphia", something known to be a part of a bigger city. Williamstown, while entirely inside Monroe it's one of New Jersey's unincorporated entities that may or may not cross municipality lines. I am aware of a number of those used as control points in NJ, although they are going away, especially on the Garden State Parkway.

[SignBridge]

Re: NYC destination signing, current practice by NYSDOT in and around NYC is to use borough names as destination either with or without a bridge/tunnel name. For instance on the LI Expwy heading into Queens, signs that used to read Whitestone or Throgs Neck Bridge now say Bronx. And pull-through signs that used to say Midtown Tun, now say Manhattan. So I agree that borough names are appropriate and compliant with the Manual. But ideally, where space permits, both the borough and bridge/tunnel names should be shown.

[roadman65]

I see NB at Exit 13, there is no pull through destination.  Either its greened out or left out on purpose due to Exit 13 also serving NYC (as New York would indeed be that control city).

Sadly, that's not the only northbound pull-through sign with that treatment. 

For some asinine reason, all of the newer MUTCD-style northbound pull-through signs as far south as Exit 9, do not list a control city/point/destination despite the related-ramp signage (at least up through Exit 11) listing either New York or New York City for the northbound Turnpike/I-95.

That said & IMHO, using NYC on northbound pull-through signage is appropriate up through Exit 12.  From Exit 13 (per your listed example) and northward; the use of either G.W. Bridge, Connecticut or even New England would be appropriate.  Using Fort Lee or New Haven, CT, while more MUTCD-compliant is a bit too obscure for this portion of the Turnpike.

You can't really ignore the fact that I-95 goes through New York.

We all know that I-95 goes through New York.  However, the portion of NYC that it goes through is not exactly the major core of the city (central & lower Manhattan).

There are really no alternatives for the various New York-bound routes than to use bridges and tunnels

Last time I checked, I-95 crosses into NYC from NJ via the George Washington Bridge.  The other bridges & tunnels south of the GWB connect closer/at Manhattan's/NYC's core.

... unless you want to start using boroughs or even neighborhoods of Manhattan.

Somehow a sign that reads 95 NORTH The Bronx, while accurate, wouldn't actually fly; especially since MUTCD now wants/prefers actual cities/towns to be used as listed control cities.  In the past, there were signs that listed Cross-Bronx Expressway but those signs were in NY and such were used in the same manner that the NJTP shield is being used on I-95 signage today (the expressway name was placed next to the route shield).

I know things like that are done within cities, but I don't think I've ever seen a neighborhood as a control point outside the city the neighborhood is in.

Chances are, those signs you saw are either older or local installs.

Staten Island is a borough!  Its used at Exit 13 and for decades on the Garden State Parkway at NB 127.  So The Bronx could be used, but for some reason I think New Haven would work better here.

IMHO there should be an exit list sign approaching Exit 14 at least for Manhattan stating New York City Exits than list both 14C and 16E and use I-78 Holland Tunnel for the former and NJ 495 (yes the NJTA finally recognizes the route after several decades) Lincoln Tunnel.   Doing that was similar to what NJDOT did on the Skyway where the TO New York sign is (was) east of the Passaic River controlling those into NY to use either tunnel.

Supplemental signs for "The Bronx" could be used to advise motorists to use I-95 north from there as well.

[bzakharin]

I see NB at Exit 13, there is no pull through destination.  Either its greened out or left out on purpose due to Exit 13 also serving NYC (as New York would indeed be that control city).

Sadly, that's not the only northbound pull-through sign with that treatment. 

For some asinine reason, all of the newer MUTCD-style northbound pull-through signs as far south as Exit 9, do not list a control city/point/destination despite the related-ramp signage (at least up through Exit 11) listing either New York or New York City for the northbound Turnpike/I-95.

That said & IMHO, using NYC on northbound pull-through signage is appropriate up through Exit 12.  From Exit 13 (per your listed example) and northward; the use of either G.W. Bridge, Connecticut or even New England would be appropriate.  Using Fort Lee or New Haven, CT, while more MUTCD-compliant is a bit too obscure for this portion of the Turnpike.

You can't really ignore the fact that I-95 goes through New York.

We all know that I-95 goes through New York.  However, the portion of NYC that it goes through is not exactly the major core of the city (central & lower Manhattan).

There are really no alternatives for the various New York-bound routes than to use bridges and tunnels

Last time I checked, I-95 crosses into NYC from NJ via the George Washington Bridge.  The other bridges & tunnels south of the GWB connect closer/at Manhattan's/NYC's core.

... unless you want to start using boroughs or even neighborhoods of Manhattan.

Somehow a sign that reads 95 NORTH The Bronx, while accurate, wouldn't actually fly; especially since MUTCD now wants/prefers actual cities/towns to be used as listed control cities.  In the past, there were signs that listed Cross-Bronx Expressway but those signs were in NY and such were used in the same manner that the NJTP shield is being used on I-95 signage today (the expressway name was placed next to the route shield).

I know things like that are done within cities, but I don't think I've ever seen a neighborhood as a control point outside the city the neighborhood is in.

Chances are, those signs you saw are either older or local installs.

Staten Island is a borough!  Its used at Exit 13 and for decades on the Garden State Parkway at NB 127.  So The Bronx could be used, but for some reason I think New Haven would work better here.

IMHO there should be an exit list sign approaching Exit 14 at least for Manhattan stating New York City Exits than list both 14C and 16E and use I-78 Holland Tunnel for the former and NJ 495 (yes the NJTA finally recognizes the route after several decades) Lincoln Tunnel.   Doing that was similar to what NJDOT did on the Skyway where the TO New York sign is (was) east of the Passaic River controlling those into NY to use either tunnel.

Supplemental signs for "The Bronx" could be used to advise motorists to use I-95 north from there as well.

ok, you got me. I forgot about Staten Island. But I-95 goes through Manhattan too. In fact, one of my most frequent destinations after crossing GWB is only a few blocks away from it.

[PHLBOS]

But I-95 goes through Manhattan too. In fact, one of my most frequent destinations after crossing GWB is only a few blocks away from it.

I-95 goes through the upper end Manhattan (Hudson & Washington Heights area); not its focal core.  If one's destination (like yours) is in that area, fine; but the majority of Manhattan-bound individuals are likely heading towards either the central or lower end.

From points south, they're will exit off I-95/NJ Turnpike well before the Turnpike's northern terminus let alone the GWB.  Which is why one wouldn't expect to see New York or New York City listing on I-95/NJ Turnpike northbound signage beyond Exit 12.

[roadman65]

I would like to know why on I-80 in Wayne where US 46 has an exit to NJ 3 for the Lincoln Tunnel leading to the core of Mahattan, New York is not used here as a control point?  I-80 pull through (along with the GWB) uses New York to guide motorists to the big city from there.

[SignBridge]

Not sure I understand your question roadman65. If you're talking about an exit on I-80, it can't show New York as a destination if the I-80 pull-thru sign shows New York. Sec. 2E-13 of the Manual requires that: At any decision point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.

Although a generally good rule, there are some reasonable exceptions. Notably on Long Island where Northern State Parkway and parallel L.I. Expwy. are both signed for New York at Exit-29A where there is a crossover from the Parkway to the Expressway and there is no other reasonable destination to show for either route. Though if the rule were to be followed here, I would sign "New York" for the Parkway that you're already on, instead of exiting to the overcrowded L.I.E.

[roadman65]

Not sure I understand your question roadman65. If you're talking about an exit on I-80, it can't show New York as a destination if the I-80 pull-thru sign shows New York. Sec. 2E-13 of the Manual requires that: At any decision point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.

Although a generally good rule, there are some reasonable exceptions. Notably on Long Island where Northern State Parkway and parallel L.I. Expwy. are both signed for New York at Exit-29A where there is a crossover from the Parkway to the Expressway and there is no other reasonable destination to show for either route. Though if the rule were to be followed here, I would sign "New York" for the Parkway that you're already on, instead of exiting to the overcrowded L.I.E.

No sign Exit 53 as Clifton and New York and leave the pull through as G. Washington Bridge is what should be done as the business core is best served via US 46 and NJ 3.

[Duke87]

No sign Exit 53 as Clifton and New York and leave the pull through as G. Washington Bridge is what should be done as the business core is best served via US 46 and NJ 3.

The majority of people driving to New York are likely not heading to Midtown and are not better served by the Lincoln Tunnel than by the GWB.

It's frowned upon by the MUTCD but using the names of the crossings here really is the best way of differentiating.

[roadman65]

I am in total agreement of still using bridges as control points, but technically you are supposed to use a city's main  business district for a reference point in any city.  For NYC its either Midtown or Downtown.  And despite US 46 and NJ 3 not being a full freeway it still is one sort of as no stoplights occur on the entire route to the Lincoln Tunnel.

In MO using I-29 also faces a situation where a non freeway is the signed route into Downtown.  US 169 exit off of I-29 is used for that despite staying on I-29 to I-70 W Bound will put you on Broadway (the continuation of US 169 in KC).  Also from I-64 and I-55 in IL, the signed way into Downtown St. Louis is to use the MLK Bridge over staying on the freeway across the Mississippi River which also goes Downtown.

So its not a matter of non interstate that NJDOT signed it that way at I-80 Exit 53.

[artmalk]

Was on the NJTP today.  Going southbound I saw no I-95 signs added to BGS's, or stand-alone markers, between exit 9 and 7A,  Seems NJTA is still in no hurry to acknowledge I-95 between exits 6 and 9!  Anyone have a clue when this will be done?

[jeffandnicole]

Was on the NJTP today.  Going southbound I saw no I-95 signs added to BGS's, or stand-alone markers, between exit 9 and 7A,  Seems NJTA is still in no hurry to acknowledge I-95 between exits 6 and 9!  Anyone have a clue when this will be done?

At one point many years ago, the NJ Turnpike website would list their anticipated construction schedule for the week on the website, and that could provide some clues as to what they may be doing.  They haven't provided that info for quite a while now.

[bzakharin]

They added I-95 to some of the entrances (where the split for the car/truck lanes is) during the widening project, but not the mainline.

[roadman65]

There used to be reassurance shields in the median for I-95 and TO I-95 (where the freeway was not the interstate proper south of Exit 10) before and after each interchange.  Even in Secaucus where one of the gantries is for 16E and 18E had a North I-95 shield facing the NB Traffic even though the 18E panel listed I-95 above it, and going the other way the supports had a South I-95 shield for those entering from 16E.

For a while from 6 to 10 they had the TO banner removed from the TO I-95 shields as that was when the Somerset was officially scrapped and the FHWA moved the interstate onto the Turnpike between 10 and 6.  Thus left with a non directional shield (sort of like NYSDOT does with state routes).

[Roadwarriors79]

If "Staten Island" can be mentioned at exit 13, why not at exit 10 as well? There are supplemental signs for "Outerbridge Crossing" going NB on the Turnpike.

[PHLBOS]

There used to be reassurance shields in the median for I-95 and TO I-95 (where the freeway was not the interstate proper south of Exit 10) before and after each interchange.  Even in Secaucus where one of the gantries is for 16E and 18E had a North I-95 shield facing the NB Traffic even though the 18E panel listed I-95 above it, and going the other way the supports had a South I-95 shield for those entering from 16E.

For a while from 6 to 10 they had the TO banner removed from the TO I-95 shields as that was when the Somerset was officially scrapped and the FHWA moved the interstate onto the Turnpike between 10 and 6.  Thus left with a non directional shield (sort of like NYSDOT does with state routes).

The old southbound gantries at Exit 10 had SOUTH 95 assurance signs erected on the gantries' left posts for many years.  My guess is those particular assemblies were once TO 95 markers way back when.

Update: While using that stretch of the NJ Turnpike this past weekend (Oct. 13-14); I did see one or two of those now-old I-95 reassurance shields with no direction banner on them.  Such were along the stretch between Exit 11 & 9.  The ones south of there were likely removed (& not replaced) several years ago during the widening extension.

[roadman65]

If "Staten Island" can be mentioned at exit 13, why not at exit 10 as well? There are supplemental signs for "Outerbridge Crossing" going NB on the Turnpike.

Its cause its on a supplemental.  The main controls are Perth Amboy and Metuchen.  Exit 13 uses Staten Island as a control city for I-278.

Yes, I see the inconsistency here.  This is not the only place even NJDOT does it.  Just compare US 1's signage with NJ 23  on I-287 and you will.  At US 1 they use long distance controls of Newark & Trenton, while at NJ 23 its more local like Butler & Wayne.  The NJ Turnpike also does it with other places like why Manhattan is not listed at 14C, 16E, and 18E just like you pointed out about 13 properly using the borough names.

[Roadwarriors79]

If "Staten Island" can be mentioned at exit 13, why not at exit 10 as well? There are supplemental signs for "Outerbridge Crossing" going NB on the Turnpike.

Its cause its on a supplemental.  The main controls are Perth Amboy and Metuchen.  Exit 13 uses Staten Island as a control city for I-278.

Yes, I see the inconsistency here.  This is not the only place even NJDOT does it.  Just compare US 1's signage with NJ 23  on I-287 and you will.  At US 1 they use long distance controls of Newark & Trenton, while at NJ 23 its more local like Butler & Wayne.  The NJ Turnpike also does it with other places like why Manhattan is not listed at 14C, 16E, and 18E just like you pointed out about 13 properly using the borough names.

I honestly don't think it's the responsibility of New Jersey to use borough names instead of "New York City". That being said, supplemental signage is helpful.

[roadman65]

If "Staten Island" can be mentioned at exit 13, why not at exit 10 as well? There are supplemental signs for "Outerbridge Crossing" going NB on the Turnpike.

Its cause its on a supplemental.  The main controls are Perth Amboy and Metuchen.  Exit 13 uses Staten Island as a control city for I-278.

Yes, I see the inconsistency here.  This is not the only place even NJDOT does it.  Just compare US 1's signage with NJ 23  on I-287 and you will.  At US 1 they use long distance controls of Newark & Trenton, while at NJ 23 its more local like Butler & Wayne.  The NJ Turnpike also does it with other places like why Manhattan is not listed at 14C, 16E, and 18E just like you pointed out about 13 properly using the borough names.

I honestly don't think it's the responsibility of New Jersey to use borough names instead of "New York City". That being said, supplemental signage is helpful.

However, it is signed at Exit 13 by NJTA!  Staten Island is a control city there and signed as a normal incorporated entity by engineers for the Turnpike.

NJTA is just following guidelines set by the MUTCD and in the case of Exit 13, Staten Island is a city in its own right.  Being Manhattan is way to ambiguous the same people are just leaving the crossing names instead of trying to redefine NYC.  Staten Island by most area residents is considered its own city despite it being a big part of NYC! So I believe the signs there reflect that logic.

[bzakharin]

If "Staten Island" can be mentioned at exit 13, why not at exit 10 as well? There are supplemental signs for "Outerbridge Crossing" going NB on the Turnpike.

Its cause its on a supplemental.  The main controls are Perth Amboy and Metuchen.  Exit 13 uses Staten Island as a control city for I-278.

Yes, I see the inconsistency here.  This is not the only place even NJDOT does it.  Just compare US 1's signage with NJ 23  on I-287 and you will.  At US 1 they use long distance controls of Newark & Trenton, while at NJ 23 its more local like Butler & Wayne.  The NJ Turnpike also does it with other places like why Manhattan is not listed at 14C, 16E, and 18E just like you pointed out about 13 properly using the borough names.

I honestly don't think it's the responsibility of New Jersey to use borough names instead of "New York City". That being said, supplemental signage is helpful.

However, it is signed at Exit 13 by NJTA!  Staten Island is a control city there and signed as a normal incorporated entity by engineers for the Turnpike.

NJTA is just following guidelines set by the MUTCD and in the case of Exit 13, Staten Island is a city in its own right.  Being Manhattan is way to ambiguous the same people are just leaving the crossing names instead of trying to redefine NYC.  Staten Island by most area residents is considered its own city despite it being a big part of NYC! So I believe the signs there reflect that logic.

I think it has something to do with I-278 not having any interchanges in New Jersey east of the Turnpike, so really Staten Island (or the name of the bridge) is the only option. NJ 440 has plenty of exits in NJ and Perth Amboy is a pretty big destination.

[roadman65]

Probably also your assessment is correct. There are no other cities east of the Turnpike at 13. For Exit 10 you do have Perth Amboy or even Fords (but too small to use).  Although the NB Parkway uses Staten Island at  Exit 127 for Route 440 as at that point NJ 440 has reached Perth Amboy so signing that would not be feasible there where the Turnpike is way before that. 

[Buffaboy]

I had the pleasure of riding the New Jersey Turnpike yesterday for the first time ever, from Betsy Ross Br. to I-80. It was quite interesting seeing the express lane run for as long as it did. Very unique freeway setup that I knew existed, but is interesting to actually drive on.

[jeffandnicole]

I had the pleasure of riding the New Jersey Turnpike yesterday for the first time ever, from Betsy Ross Br. to I-80. It was quite interesting seeing the express lane run for as long as it did. Very unique freeway setup that I knew existed, but is interesting to actually drive on.

Not express lanes, but rather inner/outer roadway, or car/truck lanes.  All exits can be reached from both roadways, so there's nothing 'express' about it.

[KEVIN_224]

Betsy Ross Bridge connects to NJ Route 90 in Pennsauken. It sounds like you headed towards NJ Route 73 and got onto the Turnpike at Exit 4 in Mount Laurel. Done that on Peter Pan and Greyhound a few times.

[Buffaboy]

Betsy Ross Bridge connects to NJ Route 90 in Pennsauken. It sounds like you headed towards NJ Route 73 and got onto the Turnpike at Exit 4 in Mount Laurel. Done that on Peter Pan and Greyhound a few times.

For some reason we used a Garmin to get where we were going, and took all of the toll roads. We could have easily shunpiked on our route and saved serious cash.