ESPN: Raiders Moving to Las Vegas

[sparker]

Well, they can always come down here & play in CEFCU (Spartan) Stadium (SJSU venue), only about 17K capacity but, hey, at least it's only an hour and a half (considering usual traffic) from Oakland.  Probably have to give a healthy accommodation to season-ticket holders (it's a wooden-bleacher site) -- but there's probably at least 8.5K die-hards who will still come to games, so the place would do no worse than half-filled -- particularly if they give locals breaks on ticket prices (yeah, right!).   If they did, I'd certainly try to attend at least a game or two (it's only 3-4 minutes from my office).  Just a thought, Mark!?

[gonealookin]

Sam Boyd Stadium is mostly aluminium bleachers.  It is just too darn hot.  At best the Raiders would have to play the first six or seven weeks on the road, maybe one "night" (5:20 local) game.

We can agree that a Sunday afternoon game in Sam Boyd Stadium before the middle of October is intolerable.  I still don't think that presents a problem that can't be worked around.

In addition to Thursday/Sunday/Monday night games as you mention, each team gets one bye week.  The Raiders would get theirs fairly early in the season.  Also, the NFL plays several games each season outside the US, mostly in London but this past season there was one in Mexico City which was a Raiders home game, relocated from Oakland.  Since the Raiders share the Coliseum with the A's, the NFL's scheduling has already been using the bye week and the international game to minimize the direct baseball/football conflicts, so there would not be much change to the Raiders schedules.  One home night game, one international "home" game and a bye week gets you through the middle of October, and then the Raiders would play 6 Sunday afternoon home games at Sam Boyd over the final 10 weeks or so of the regular season.

[1995hoo]

How did the scheduling work when the Cardinals played at Sun Devil Stadium? It seems like they'd have similar issues. I just don't remember how the league handled it.

[Big John]

^^ They usually started the season on a road-heavy schedule.  Example for 1989 season: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/crd/1989.htm

[MisterSG1]

I still find the idea of Las Vegas being home to professional sports teams weird. There aren't supposed to be family friendly recreational activities in Las Vegas.

Well, there are the NHL's Golden Knights, who will start play next season.

As for the Montreal thing, I don't think that they'll ever get a team again because of how the Expos abandoned it. I'd rather the A's move to AT&T Park temporarily while a new stadium is built, and let's not forget that by then, the Warriors will be gone from Oakland too.

Why can't Canada just get it's own baseball league? Why do they always have to rely on the US to get something from us?

Pro sports have always been "fully integrated" across Canada and the US at least since the late 19th century, it's ironic because in some ways it seems as possibly doing cross border business was an easier task way back when compared to now. Even with modern agreements that came into place like the Auto Pact, the Canada-US FTA, and later NAFTA.

That being said, the NHL actually started out totally in Canada, Boston Bruins became the first US based team in the league in 1924, and in 1926 the majority of teams were based in the US, with hockey accepted more as a global league as time went on, Canadians no longer make up the majority of the NHL now.

The BAA (Basketball Association of America) which became the NBA, had a team in Toronto in the first season played in 1946-47, this team later folded and pro basketball didn't return here for nearly 50 years other than the occasional Buffalo Braves game played in the 1970s.


Having said all this, returning to Montreal for MLB is a very foolish move. I should mention, that even before the infamous 1994 strike, that season where many thought Montreal could do it, they still only attracted a little north of 20,000 fans per game. Consider Toronto's lackluster 1994 season, sure the stadium was still fairly new and they came off a World Series victory, but they have over 50,000 fans per game while they were bad that season. Expos attendance really took a nosedive in 1999 when their average became less than 10,000 per game.

I don't want to get into politics, but while Montreal may have worked in 1969, a lot of things politically occurred in Canada, particularly in Quebec. Back in '69, Montreal was the "flagship" city of Canada, Toronto as a result of what happened in Quebec became the flagship city of Canada. I believe these changes are a major reason for the failure of baseball in Montreal.


Some blame Olympic Stadium, however, you need to keep in mind that a new stadium isn't always the magical solution for interest. Case in point, the Toronto Argonauts, the move of the Argos into BMO Field was supposed to be the revitalization of the team, well that didn't happen whatsoever and they are still a second rate backbencher in the Toronto sports scene.

[gonealookin]

The Raiders may get booted out of the Oakland Coliseum after the 2018 season, leaving them homeless for 2019 (at least).  (Edit:  Oops, SP Cook already mentioned that; here's a specific link.)

Expanding a little on what I said above about early-season scheduling at Sam Boyd:  In the first 6 weeks of the season, play 3 road games, one toasty night (5:30 p.m. local) home game, one international "home" game, and have the bye week.  That means the first game they would consider playing at 1 p.m. local time would be in Week 7.  In 2016, Sunday of Week 7 was October 23.  That might even be a week later than it needs to be; the international game may not even be necessary.

August preseason games would be hot, but they aren't part of the national TV contract so they can be started after 7 p.m. local time.  The Cardinals survived all those years in Sun Devil Stadium.  None of the solutions is optimal, but if Sam Boyd can pass minimum NFL standards it seems like they should be building community support there rather than playing as a transient in San Antonio, the Fargodome, Anchorage or wherever.

[texaskdog]

A homeless team would be a great way for the NFL to visit several other prospective cities.  Let them play 8 "home" games in large cities that have big stadiums much like bowl games. 

[lordsutch]

A homeless team would be a great way for the NFL to visit several other prospective cities.  Let them play 8 "home" games in large cities that have big stadiums much like bowl games. 

The NFLPA would be pissed. They already don't like the International Series.

Honestly, there's plenty of places the Raiders could play in the Bay Area if needed (Levi's, Stanford, and Cal all have enough seats for a typical NFL audience). They could also play in LA or San Diego for a couple of years.

[gonealookin]

The Raiders cannot play at Cal's Memorial Stadium in Berkeley.  Well, they could, but after the Raiders played one regular season game and several preseason games there in the 1970s, the City of Berkeley decided they didn't want those games and imposed a prohibitive tax to discourage them.

9.04.175 Professional sports event.

B.    Every person commencing, transacting or carrying on any professional sports event in the City shall pay a daily license tax of ten percent of gross receipts measured as of the time or times such event or events as to which this tax is applicable may commence, be transacted or be carried on in the City. (Ord. 5017-NS § I (part), 1977)

The idea of the Raiders playing at some Bay Area venue other than the Oakland Coliseum misses the point anyway.  There will be plenty of acrimony toward Mark Davis and the NFL in Oakland this coming season and that will just increase the longer the Raiders hang around as a lame duck.  Once you commit to leaving, whether you're talking about a football team or a marriage, then you gotta get out of there ASAP.

[SP Cook]

For anybody interested in the Expos, I strongly recomend "Up, Up and Away" by Jonah Keri, which examines the colapase of the team's business side very well.  There is plenty of blame to go around.

- The PQ government's hostility to not only the English speaking community, but to job creators generally (it was socialist in all but name) caused many companies and many people to pack up and move to Toronto.
- The team was promised a stadium by 1971, playing it first 2 years in a wooden temporary deal, then the city got involved in the Olympics boondoggle, meaning what became the "Big Owe" was not open until 1977.
- The Big Owe was the world's greatest act of architectural malpractice.  Designed by a French architect who did not like sports and had never seen a baseball game to "look like nature" it simply was not functional as a sports stadium.
- And it was never finished.   The impractical design and labor strikes meant is was used for the 76 Olympics and then put back into constuction.  Place was an open consturction site well into the 80s, not counting the roof which never did work and was not on the place until the late 80s.  The semi-covered design (like Texas Stadium, which also was supposed to have a roof) meant the place had a dank musty atmosphere most of the time.
- When the Blue Jays started in 77, the Expos were kicked off TV and radio in the immediate Toronto area, and forced to share the rest of the country with not only the Blue Jays, but various parts with border teams (Marriners, Twins, Tigers, Red Sox) .
- As noted up thread, the last ownership wanted the team to fail, as a part of its Maimi-Boston plot.  It purposefully lost and eliminated its English language broadcasts in order to drive away fans.  Esentually the plot of the movie Major League, only real.
- The team took in C$ but spent US$.  As with the various failed NHL teams, that only works when the $$ are near to par, and as the Loonie went as low as sixty-nine cents at one point. 

In any event, Montreal has stabilized its economy, is willing to build a ballpark, and remains, by far, the largest area (if it were in the USA, it would be the #4 TV DMA) w/o baseball.  Oakland, Tampa, or an expansion team will end up there eventually.

[dvferyance]

For anybody interested in the Expos, I strongly recomend "Up, Up and Away" by Jonah Keri, which examines the colapase of the team's business side very well.  There is plenty of blame to go around.

- The PQ government's hostility to not only the English speaking community, but to job creators generally (it was socialist in all but name) caused many companies and many people to pack up and move to Toronto.
- The team was promised a stadium by 1971, playing it first 2 years in a wooden temporary deal, then the city got involved in the Olympics boondoggle, meaning what became the "Big Owe" was not open until 1977.
- The Big Owe was the world's greatest act of architectural malpractice.  Designed by a French architect who did not like sports and had never seen a baseball game to "look like nature" it simply was not functional as a sports stadium.
- And it was never finished.   The impractical design and labor strikes meant is was used for the 76 Olympics and then put back into constuction.  Place was an open consturction site well into the 80s, not counting the roof which never did work and was not on the place until the late 80s.  The semi-covered design (like Texas Stadium, which also was supposed to have a roof) meant the place had a dank musty atmosphere most of the time.
- When the Blue Jays started in 77, the Expos were kicked off TV and radio in the immediate Toronto area, and forced to share the rest of the country with not only the Blue Jays, but various parts with border teams (Marriners, Twins, Tigers, Red Sox) .
- As noted up thread, the last ownership wanted the team to fail, as a part of its Maimi-Boston plot.  It purposefully lost and eliminated its English language broadcasts in order to drive away fans.  Esentually the plot of the movie Major League, only real.
- The team took in C$ but spent US$.  As with the various failed NHL teams, that only works when the $$ are near to par, and as the Loonie went as low as sixty-nine cents at one point. 

In any event, Montreal has stabilized its economy, is willing to build a ballpark, and remains, by far, the largest area (if it were in the USA, it would be the #4 TV DMA) w/o baseball.  Oakland, Tampa, or an expansion team will end up there eventually.

If baseball wanted to expand I think Indianapolis and Portland would be far better choices then Montreal. Before the Expos left crowds were dismal. There was very little support for the team in Montreal.

[jeffandnicole]

In any event, Montreal has stabilized its economy, is willing to build a ballpark, and remains, by far, the largest area (if it were in the USA, it would be the #4 TV DMA) w/o baseball.  Oakland, Tampa, or an expansion team will end up there eventually.

If baseball wanted to expand I think Indianapolis and Portland would be far better choices then Montreal. Before the Expos left crowds were dismal. There was very little support for the team in Montreal.

That's the biggest key.  Baseball isn't exactly a 'Build it and they will come' game.  (They said it in Field of Dreams?  Wha???)

In most cases, the new stadium building phases of the last decade or two have introduced smaller ballparks, not larger.  Many capacity-filled ballparks are due to these smaller sized stadiums, or because the team is a winner.

I really don't see the fanbase in Montreal coming out for what is otherwise an American Sport.  And due to its distance from most American cities, it's not quite as easy for fans from the visiting team to try to visit.

I did get to see 2 games in Montreal - the Phillies final series in that ballpark.  Because it was late in the season, and Philly is only an 8 hour drive away, the attendance was larger than normal as numerous fans drove up to see the ballpark.

I believe the retractable rooftop worked part of one season.  It never worked again, and was permanently shut.

[SP Cook]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

[dvferyance]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say.

What did the Bengals and Bears say when the Colts moved to Indianapolis?

[1995hoo]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

[sparker]

If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

That is, in a nutshell, what PDX Metro's all about -- enforcing limited/slow growth in the greater area.  One thing they didn't count on -- their enforcement ends at the state line in the middle of the Columbia.  Vancouver metro has essentially served as a "safety valve" for the metro policies; if developers run into issues in Oregon, they simply have to traipse across the river and site their projects in Washington.  That's not to say that WA is ready, willing, and able to accept massive sprawl in that region; it's just much easier to get small-to-medium-scale housing and/or commercial enterprises going up there than in the Oregon portion of greater Portland.  With that "safety valve" available, developers can simply grouse about Oregon rules -- and subsequently build something in Washington -- rather than engage in perpetual court challenges and other associated litigation aimed at circumventing existing policy. 

[tdindy88]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say.

What did the Bengals and Bears say when the Colts moved to Indianapolis?

Indianapolis is quite satisfied with their minor league baseball team, the Indians. Victory Field, despite opening in 1996, is still one of the best minor league baseball parks in the world. There is no need for a major league team here. Portland however could work.

[tribar]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

I presume that it he meant Portland, OR, not Portland ME.

[1995hoo]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

I presume that it he meant Portland, OR, not Portland ME.

You didn't read my entire post!

[nexus73]

Move over Raiders, here come the Rangers!  I just saw an article online that had this to say and it looks like pro sports is expected to boost casino sports bigly!

Rick

NEW YORK, NY / ACCESSWIRE / March 30, 2017 / The Rangers are moving to Las Vegas, and casino stocks are reacting astronomically well. Both Las Vegas Sands and Wynn Resorts' stock prices registered gains by the end of business yesterday. Trade volumes are expected to rise significantly, with almost every other industry player deeming the move one of the best things to happen to Las Vegas in recent times. Casino stocks could remain up as mid-year approaches. Gaming wins in the Las Vegas strip downed last month with revenues increasing by slightly less than 9%. Here's a closer look at the day's happenings in the casino industrial sector.

RDI Initiates Coverage:

Las Vegas Sands Corp. https://ub.rdinvesting.com/news/?ticker=LVS

Wynn Resorts, Limited https://ub.rdinvesting.com/news/?ticker=WYNN

The casino and resort operating company closed the day on a high, with the stock gaining 0.56% to close the day at $57.25. The upsurge is a reflection of the recent Raiders move to Nevada. The gambling mecca is set to reap heavily from the move, with its stock price comfortably going up by the day.

When the Raiders move to the desert, casino attendance will imminently go up, meaning more business for casinos. The direct effect on the stock price is already taking shape, with Wall Street analysts deeming the move "the most anticipated in recent times". Boyd Gaming Corp and Capri Casinos Inc.'s shares are also setting new heights by the day.

Access RDI's Las Vegas Sands Research Report at: https://ub.rdinvesting.com/news/?ticker=LVS

Wynn Resorts' shares closed the day on a positive, to trade at $115.49, a 0.27% increase from the previous day's value. There is no denying the Raiders' move to Las Vegas will have a desirable effect for the casino industry. The plans to build a 65,000 capacity stadium are at the implementation stage, with the Raiders having already met the $750 million budget. Speaking to Wall Street Journal, Chief Executive Steve Wynn called the move "a game changer".

The upsurge in stock prices in the industry is expected to continue, with industry experts speculating a positive reaction by investors; both current and potential.

Access RDI's Wynn Resorts Research Report at: https://ub.rdinvesting.com/news/?ticker=WYNN

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[dvferyance]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

I presume that it he meant Portland, OR, not Portland ME.

Yes I meant Portland OR. I didn't think I would have to make that clear because Portland ME is way to small for Major League Baseball.

[1995hoo]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

I presume that it he meant Portland, OR, not Portland ME.

Yes I meant Portland OR. I didn't think I would have to make that clear because Portland ME is way to small for Major League Baseball.

You didn't read my entire post either!

[sparker]

The Reds, and probably the Cubs and White Sox, would demand a heavy indemnity to allow expansion to Indy.  If you believe what Portland's politicians say with all this "smart growth" ho-ha, the town will reach a certain size and then not grow any more.  I don't believe that, but it is what they say. 

The Red Sox would want a big payoff to allow Portland in, if there are even enough people in Maine to support a team anyway.

(Yes, I know you meant the fake Portland on the other side of the country.)

I presume that it he meant Portland, OR, not Portland ME.

Yes I meant Portland OR. I didn't think I would have to make that clear because Portland ME is way to small for Major League Baseball.

Here's an exercise in futility:  trying to wring public money for a stadium from the city of Portland and/or PDX Metro.  The Blazers are tolerated because they play indoors in a not-too-gaudy arena; the type of football and/or baseball venue acceptable to team brass and financial backers would stand out to a degree likely bordering on obnoxious to local public figures.  Then there's the matter about where to put a sizeable stadium plus associated parking facilities (which might in itself be a dealbreaker considering the predilections of PDX officials) -- probably have to be out in Hillsboro or somewhere west along 26.  Another thought -- pull a New York trick and place the stadium in the neighboring state (Battle Ground says hello!).  In any case, there would be extensive pissing and moaning coming from various PDX activists -- possibly enough to derail any MLB/NFL efforts.