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I-78 in NJ/NY - question

Started by MrAndy1369, April 08, 2018, 10:34:20 PM

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MrAndy1369

Sorry if this was asked before, I tried doing a search and didn't come up with anything.

I noticed that I-78 in NJ, right before entering the Holland Tunnel, becomes a surface street, then becomes a freeway again temporarily in the Holland Tunnel before terminating shortly in NYC.

Google Maps show this as I-78 all the way through NJ, the "at-grade" portion of the interstate, and through the Holland Tunnel. However, looking at Street View, I don't see any eastbound/westbound reassurance I-78 shields from downtown NYC and in the tunnel, and the roads entering "I-78" at the "at-grade" portion show the road as 12th Street, not I-78.

So, my question is... does I-78 terminate before the "at-grade" portion, or is truly an anomaly in the system and the "at-grade" portion is still I-78 through to NYC?

I hope my question makes sense.


02 Park Ave

It is a horrible situation.  There is a similar one in Pennsylvania called "Breezewood".  These situations exist because local business interests pressure the politicians to let them.

In Philadelphia there is likewise I-676 with traffic lights on it.  That one could be easily resolved by just closing off the cross streets.  But again the motoring public is at the mercy of the politicians.

Incidently, I-78 was originally planned to continue eastward across Manhattan, through Brooklyn, loop past Kennedy Airport and then head north over the Throggs Neck Bridge to join I-95 in the Bronx.  One and a half portions were actually built, viz. what is now I-295 in Queens and the eastbound freeway from the Belt Parkway to Kennedy Airport.  Politicians prevented the completion of this highway.
C-o-H

jasonsk287

I believe that I-78 technically continues into Manhattan. When it exits the Holland Tunnel there is a short circle-shaped roadway with "exits"  that dump you onto local streets. At the end of this roadway is technically where I-78 ends. Which would mean yes, I-78 through Jersey City has traffic lights and at-grade intersections. Every map I've seen indicates I-78 continues through the Holland Tunnel into Manhattan. And I've seen signage in Manhattan as well that indicates I-78 beginning at the Tunnel entrance (it doesn't say "Begin" , just "West/78" ).


iPhone

storm2k

officially, yes, the 12th and 14th street arterials are part of 78. given that there are no realistic plans to grade separate all those cross streets and close all the businesses and gas stations along that stretch, 78 should probably end at the bottom of the nbx viaducts and the rest of the approach be 139 (which if i am reading the sld's correctly, it has a silent concurrency) up to the tunnels, in light of the fact that the ny segments of 78 are long dead.

Duke87

Yes, that one way pair of surface streets is technically part of I-78. As is the Holland Tunnel itself.

I-78 being routed along those streets was supposed to be temporary, there were plans to build a proper freeway in the block between them. These plans got canceled decades ago but I-78 was never truncated to compensate.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: storm2k on April 09, 2018, 12:06:21 AM
officially, yes, the 12th and 14th street arterials are part of 78. given that there are no realistic plans to grade separate all those cross streets and close all the businesses and gas stations along that stretch, 78 should probably end at the bottom of the nbx viaducts and the rest of the approach be 139 (which if i am reading the sld's correctly, it has a silent concurrency) up to the tunnels, in light of the fact that the ny segments of 78 are long dead.
You read correctly. I've looked at the four blocks at-grade, and realistically, you could get two viaducts of I-78 above grade (two lanes express to the toll plaza) and still keep everything at street level... except the easternmost grade crossing would have to be closed to get the viaducts into the tolls. Of course, Jersey City would never let this happen, and it wouldn't matter because the tie-up is the tunnel merge itself.

AMLNet49

Quote from: Alps on April 09, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
Quote from: storm2k on April 09, 2018, 12:06:21 AM
officially, yes, the 12th and 14th street arterials are part of 78. given that there are no realistic plans to grade separate all those cross streets and close all the businesses and gas stations along that stretch, 78 should probably end at the bottom of the nbx viaducts and the rest of the approach be 139 (which if i am reading the sld's correctly, it has a silent concurrency) up to the tunnels, in light of the fact that the ny segments of 78 are long dead.
You read correctly. I've looked at the four blocks at-grade, and realistically, you could get two viaducts of I-78 above grade (two lanes express to the toll plaza) and still keep everything at street level... except the easternmost grade crossing would have to be closed to get the viaducts into the tolls. Of course, Jersey City would never let this happen, and it wouldn't matter because the tie-up is the tunnel merge itself.
Yeah if nothing else the lights meter the flow of traffic into the tunnel and Manhattan. It doesn't feel like a regular surface street down there though, its clear youre on an interstate its like 4 or 5 lanes, surrounded by food and gas stations and security, it feels a lot more like a giant interstate service plaza than a surface street through Jersey City. And yes it is I-78 although there are relatively few signs on that portion. There aren't reassurance shields on the Lomex stub after the eastbound Holland, but all the exits use overhead signage so it still maintains its character. The westbound Holland is actually signed as 78 on BGS's and LGS's in the city including from NY 9A.

DJStephens

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on April 08, 2018, 11:01:08 PM
It is a horrible situation.  There is a similar one in Pennsylvania called "Breezewood".  These situations exist because local business interests pressure the politicians to let them.

In Philadelphia there is likewise I-676 with traffic lights on it.  That one could be easily resolved by just closing off the cross streets.  But again the motoring public is at the mercy of the politicians.

Incidently, I-78 was originally planned to continue eastward across Manhattan, through Brooklyn, loop past Kennedy Airport and then head north over the Throggs Neck Bridge to join I-95 in the Bronx.  One and a half portions were actually built, viz. what is now I-295 in Queens and the eastbound freeway from the Belt Parkway to Kennedy Airport.  Politicians prevented the completion of this highway.

The once proposed lower Manhattan expressway was termed "LOMEX".  It was to cut across lower Manhattan Island before crossing into Brooklyn on an pre-existing bridge.  Do not know whether it was to be either the Brooklyn or Queensboro.  Or another.  Once in Brooklyn it was to follow arterials as either a surface or depressed facility before eventually reaching Idlewild Airport, which is now JFK.  The disruption of such a facility, and the attitude of Moses, made it pretty much dead on arrival.  Believe Moses was credited with a comment along the lines of cutting through neighborhoods as "chopping with a meat axe".  This facility, along with the cancelled Cross Manhattan, would have made NYC a far more favorable place today in terms of traffic congestion and trucking. 

froggie

However, the LOMEX would have destroyed too much of Lower Manhattan in order to do that...

As for your earlier comment, I-78/LOMEX was to have crossed the Williamsburg Bridge.  A spur (I-478) would have split at Bowery St and crossed the Manhattan Bridge.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on April 09, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
However, the LOMEX would have destroyed too much of Lower Manhattan in order to do that...

The LOMEX should have been built ... as a bored tunnel below everything else, with maybe one access/egress point on Manhattan itself, and on across the East River.   That's how the Second Avenue Subway extension and the Alaskan Way (Bertha) Tunnel in Seattle were built.

SEPTA is looking at possible use of a TBM to extend the the Broad Street Subway to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard - and unlike most other construction equipment and technologies, the cost of using a TBM is actually declining.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

The Ghostbuster

Excluding expense and despite its fictionality, would it be possible to connect the eastern end of the New Jersey Turnpike - Newark Extension (Interstate 78) with the Holland Tunnel (also Interstate 78) via another tunnel beneath the businesses and streets that connect the NJTNE with the Holland Tunnel?

Alps

Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 09, 2018, 04:54:57 PM
Excluding expense and despite its fictionality, would it be possible to connect the eastern end of the New Jersey Turnpike - Newark Extension (Interstate 78) with the Holland Tunnel (also Interstate 78) via another tunnel beneath the businesses and streets that connect the NJTNE with the Holland Tunnel?
This has been looked at - the Bergen Arches plan - but you again run into capacity under the Hudson River being the constraint.

TXtoNJ

Quote from: Alps on April 09, 2018, 06:40:03 PM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on April 09, 2018, 04:54:57 PM
Excluding expense and despite its fictionality, would it be possible to connect the eastern end of the New Jersey Turnpike - Newark Extension (Interstate 78) with the Holland Tunnel (also Interstate 78) via another tunnel beneath the businesses and streets that connect the NJTNE with the Holland Tunnel?
This has been looked at - the Bergen Arches plan - but you again run into capacity under the Hudson River being the constraint.

A lot of trying to reinvent the wheel with this one. If anything, the situation lends itself to more radical solutions once it is time to replace the entire Holland Tunnel facility, such as extending the bores all the way to where the PA buildings currently sit, along with more modest improvements like converting entirely to electronic tolling.

NoGoodNamesAvailable

Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 09, 2018, 02:52:11 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 09, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
However, the LOMEX would have destroyed too much of Lower Manhattan in order to do that...

The LOMEX should have been built ... as a bored tunnel below everything else, with maybe one access/egress point on Manhattan itself, and on across the East River.   That's how the Second Avenue Subway extension and the Alaskan Way (Bertha) Tunnel in Seattle were built.

SEPTA is looking at possible use of a TBM to extend the the Broad Street Subway to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard - and unlike most other construction equipment and technologies, the cost of using a TBM is actually declining.

If they ever ended up boring a new tunnel from Jersey to Long Island across Manhattan, I feel it would be much more beneficial to the region as a rail tunnel than as a car tunnel. The north river tunnels are going to fail (and possibly kill thousands of people when they do so–and it's a matter of when, not if) unless protracted, extremely disruptive maintenance can be done on them. Make it a bilevel tunnel connecting with the NE corridor and the LIRR: upper level for passenger rail with a Manhattan station or two and allow through-running of trains across the region; lower level for freight, and you've solved the Selkirk hurdle. The capacity benefits of heavy rail in a dense place like NYC just make it a better value for your money than a car tunnel.

Alps

Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on April 11, 2018, 11:17:55 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on April 09, 2018, 02:52:11 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 09, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
However, the LOMEX would have destroyed too much of Lower Manhattan in order to do that...

The LOMEX should have been built ... as a bored tunnel below everything else, with maybe one access/egress point on Manhattan itself, and on across the East River.   That's how the Second Avenue Subway extension and the Alaskan Way (Bertha) Tunnel in Seattle were built.

SEPTA is looking at possible use of a TBM to extend the the Broad Street Subway to the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard - and unlike most other construction equipment and technologies, the cost of using a TBM is actually declining.

If they ever ended up boring a new tunnel from Jersey to Long Island across Manhattan, I feel it would be much more beneficial to the region as a rail tunnel than as a car tunnel. The north river tunnels are going to fail (and possibly kill thousands of people when they do so–and it's a matter of when, not if) unless protracted, extremely disruptive maintenance can be done on them. Make it a bilevel tunnel connecting with the NE corridor and the LIRR: upper level for passenger rail with a Manhattan station or two and allow through-running of trains across the region; lower level for freight, and you've solved the Selkirk hurdle. The capacity benefits of heavy rail in a dense place like NYC just make it a better value for your money than a car tunnel.
Both rail and road capacity are sorely needed. Both.

Roadwarriors79

I could see a renumbering to NJ 78 and NY 78 before any grade separation of the four-block segment ever happened.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on April 12, 2018, 02:23:45 PM
I could see a renumbering to NJ 78 and NY 78 before any grade separation of the four-block segment ever happened.

New Jersey doesn't duplicate numbers, and there's no precedent in New Jersey for Interstates to become state routes with the same number, unlike New York and California.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Roadwarriors79

Quote from: 1 on April 12, 2018, 02:25:38 PM
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on April 12, 2018, 02:23:45 PM
I could see a renumbering to NJ 78 and NY 78 before any grade separation of the four-block segment ever happened.

New Jersey doesn't duplicate numbers, and there's no precedent in New Jersey for Interstates to become state routes with the same number, unlike New York and California.

I-495 became NJ 495 and (partly) NY 495, because NY couldn't build a highway through lower Manhattan.

vdeane

NJ 495 replaced all of I-495, not just a portion.  I don't think NY 495 is signed at all (well, there are some I-495 shields on NY 9A).  Plus there already is a NY 78; it's a major arterial near Buffalo.

If 12th St and 14th St need a number, an extension of NJ 139 would work.  The NY side doesn't really need a number, and I doubt one would be signed any more than I-78 is now (which isn't much if anything outside of NY 9A).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

cl94

It's disputed whether the Lincoln Tunnel has a number in New York. The Lincoln Tunnel is unnumbered in New York per the two most recent versions of the Official Description, but the highway inventory lists it as NY 495. Also worth noting that NY 495 is the unsigned designation between the BQE and Van Wyck.

As far as the Holland Tunnel, agree with everyone who said that the constraint isn't the surface section. There is NO reason to eliminate the gap unless you add tunnel capacity, as the backup onto NJ 139 is from the tunnel itself.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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dgolub

Quote from: cl94 on April 12, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
It's disputed whether the Lincoln Tunnel has a number in New York. The Lincoln Tunnel is unnumbered in New York per the two most recent versions of the Official Description, but the highway inventory lists it as NY 495. Also worth noting that NY 495 is the unsigned designation between the BQE and Van Wyck.

Well, according to FHWA.  According to NYSDOT, I-495 extends through the Midtown Tunnel into Manhattan and ends there.

storm2k

Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2018, 07:44:53 PM
NJ 495 replaced all of I-495, not just a portion.  I don't think NY 495 is signed at all (well, there are some I-495 shields on NY 9A).  Plus there already is a NY 78; it's a major arterial near Buffalo.

If 12th St and 14th St need a number, an extension of NJ 139 would work.  The NY side doesn't really need a number, and I doubt one would be signed any more than I-78 is now (which isn't much if anything outside of NY 9A).

All the overheads on Canal, Varick, and Hudson show 78 shields, though I believe we have the PA to thank for that, not NYSDOT or NYCDOT.

AMLNet49

#22
Quote from: storm2k on April 13, 2018, 12:40:04 AM
Quote from: vdeane on April 12, 2018, 07:44:53 PM
NJ 495 replaced all of I-495, not just a portion.  I don't think NY 495 is signed at all (well, there are some I-495 shields on NY 9A).  Plus there already is a NY 78; it's a major arterial near Buffalo.

If 12th St and 14th St need a number, an extension of NJ 139 would work.  The NY side doesn't really need a number, and I doubt one would be signed any more than I-78 is now (which isn't much if anything outside of NY 9A).

All the overheads on Canal, Varick, and Hudson show 78 shields, though I believe we have the PA to thank for that, not NYSDOT or NYCDOT.
Yeah it’s pretty well signed as 78 in NY.  I just wish there was an “End” sign at the end of the lomex stub because end signs are always cool and appreciated, especially on 2DIs.

Edit: That being said, and as cool as a 2DI end sign right in Manhattan would be, I would also think the location might make it vulnerable to theft.

Roadrunner75

Quote from: dgolub on April 12, 2018, 08:18:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 12, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
It's disputed whether the Lincoln Tunnel has a number in New York. The Lincoln Tunnel is unnumbered in New York per the two most recent versions of the Official Description, but the highway inventory lists it as NY 495. Also worth noting that NY 495 is the unsigned designation between the BQE and Van Wyck.

Well, according to FHWA.  According to NYSDOT, I-495 extends through the Midtown Tunnel into Manhattan and ends there.
I recall many years ago (early 90s?) seeing NY 495 (not interstate) reassurance signs on either 34th or 42nd street somewhere in the middle of Midtown.

storm2k

Quote from: Roadrunner75 on April 14, 2018, 01:16:43 PM
Quote from: dgolub on April 12, 2018, 08:18:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 12, 2018, 07:57:11 PM
It's disputed whether the Lincoln Tunnel has a number in New York. The Lincoln Tunnel is unnumbered in New York per the two most recent versions of the Official Description, but the highway inventory lists it as NY 495. Also worth noting that NY 495 is the unsigned designation between the BQE and Van Wyck.

Well, according to FHWA.  According to NYSDOT, I-495 extends through the Midtown Tunnel into Manhattan and ends there.
I recall many years ago (early 90s?) seeing NY 495 (not interstate) reassurance signs on either 34th or 42nd street somewhere in the middle of Midtown.

Probably dating back to when the LIE was still officially NY-495 before getting interstate status.



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