A new study says services like UberPool are making traffic worse

[cpzilliacus]

Washington Post: A new study says services like UberPool are making traffic worse

The explosive growth of Uber and Lyft has created a new traffic problem for major U.S. cities and ride-sharing options such as UberPool and Lyft Line are exacerbating the issue by appealing directly to customers who would otherwise have taken transit, walked, biked or not used a ride-hail service at all, according to a new study.

The report by Bruce Schaller, author of the influential study, "Unsustainable?" , which found ride-hail services were making traffic congestion in New York City worse, constructs a detailed profile of the typical ride-hail user and issues a stark warning to cities: make efforts to counter the growth of ride-hail services, or surrender city streets to fleets of private cars, creating a more hostile environment for pedestrians and cyclists and ultimately make urban cores less desirable places to live.

[jakeroot]

I can say from experience (being a Lyft driver) that I drive a lot of people here in Seattle who either just missed their bus (and don't want to wait another 10 or 15 minutes), or don't feel like waiting for the bus (due to weather).

Of course, I don't necessarily get to choose where I drive. Many of my drives in Suburban Seattle take me downtown eventually, since that's where the demand is. I'm perfectly happy driving around in the middle of nowhere, but that's not where the car-less live.

[DTComposer]

As someone who both rides a bike and drives regularly through downtown San Francisco, I will say that ride-sharing drivers have made the streets less safe. The majority of them don't have the intimate knowledge of city streets (nor the driving skills) that taxi drivers have and are relying on their phones to tell them where to go, so they make terrible and dangerous last-minute lane changes, abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc. I had my first ride-sharing experience a few weeks ago and nearly got in three accidents because the driver turned left from a through lane across two other through lanes, ran a red light, and tried to turn the wrong way onto a one-way street. And this was on a ten-minute ride between two well-known landmarks (City Hall and the Caltrain Station) and not during rush hour.

As far as I'm concerned, the only achievement of the ride-sharing economy is that it has monetized shi**y driving.

[jakeroot]

abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc.

You know we don't get to decide where to stop, right? We have to stop as close as possible to the pins, to avoid customers not being able to find us.

I will admit that many rideshare drivers are not particularly good, but that doesn't have anything to do with the service itself.

[DTComposer]

abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc.

You know we don't get to decide where to stop, right? We have to stop as close as possible to the pins, to avoid customers not being able to find us.

I understand that, but I don't think that supersedes (or should supersede) posted traffic laws. If the sign says "No Stopping Any Time," or it's a traffic lane without any shoulder room (which means stopping holds up all traffic in that lane), then you shouldn't stop.

(Granted, there are taxis, trucks, and private vehicles that violate this law as well, but it's become much more of an issue since the rise of ride-sharing).

There should be a notification in the app when a rider requests a ride to reminds them not to wait somewhere that will impede traffic when they're picked up.

I will admit that many rideshare drivers are not particularly good, but that doesn't have anything to do with the service itself.

I'm curious - what sort of training do ride-share drivers receive? How does it compare to what traditional taxi drivers received (I admit that I don't know whether or not taxi drivers receive any training)? I assume they verify your record with the DMV - if you have over a certain number of points (or receive points while you're a contractor with them) do they restrict your ability to work for them? Are riders able to report dangerous drivers back to the companies?

As I said, I've only taken the one ride, and my friend was the one with the app, so I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of the company.

[ET21]

I've noticed the large majority of shit drivers are from Uber. Granted it's not hard to be a shit driver in Illinois, especially Chicago, but it's sometimes taken to a whole new level with Uber drivers. That doesn't mean all Uber drivers are bad, I've had some really nice ones while using the service or maybe I'm just seeing the same 10-20 drivers just being morons.

[jeffandnicole]

I drive for Uber on occasion, and I somewhat agree with the article.  The thing I noticed the most, and you can see this on the basic Uber rider app, is there's a ton of 'ants' (Uber drivers logged on waiting for rides) driving around. These are all cars that normally would not have been on the road.  You can stand on the sidewalk and see all the Uber/Lyft drivers driving by as well; some have rides, some don't.

The problem is worse in the summer because all the teachers and college students are home looking to make an extra buck.  In the winter and spring, I was getting pinged for rides before dropping my current passenger off.  In the summer, I was doing a lot more sitting around.  So I'm probably just gonna wait until the fall before I drive again!

As someone who both rides a bike and drives regularly through downtown San Francisco, I will say that ride-sharing drivers have made the streets less safe. The majority of them don't have the intimate knowledge of city streets (nor the driving skills) that taxi drivers have and are relying on their phones to tell them where to go, so they make terrible and dangerous last-minute lane changes, abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc. I had my first ride-sharing experience a few weeks ago and nearly got in three accidents because the driver turned left from a through lane across two other through lanes, ran a red light, and tried to turn the wrong way onto a one-way street. And this was on a ten-minute ride between two well-known landmarks (City Hall and the Caltrain Station) and not during rush hour.

As far as I'm concerned, the only achievement of the ride-sharing economy is that it has monetized shi**y driving.

A lot of this has to do with the app's directions - they are quite horrendous.  They have often wanted me to make left turns and u-turns where it's illegal to do so.  In the city the app may be a little slow to update with the buildings around, so it may be telling me to turn onto a street as I pass the street.  I've dropped people off, got pinged for a new ride, and the app has me driving around the block right back to where I dropped the previous person off.  In the meantime the riders are standing there watching me drive away wondering what I'm doing!

abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc.

You know we don't get to decide where to stop, right? We have to stop as close as possible to the pins, to avoid customers not being able to find us.

I understand that, but I don't think that supersedes (or should supersede) posted traffic laws. If the sign says "No Stopping Any Time," or it's a traffic lane without any shoulder room (which means stopping holds up all traffic in that lane), then you shouldn't stop.

(Granted, there are taxis, trucks, and private vehicles that violate this law as well, but it's become much more of an issue since the rise of ride-sharing).

There should be a notification in the app when a rider requests a ride to reminds them not to wait somewhere that will impede traffic when they're picked up.

As far as stopping where you're not supposed to stop, well, stuff like that's going to happen.  I was picking up someone in a Federal National Park area where I'm not supposed to stop.  The Federal Officer was there, kept a close eye on it and didn't want me sitting there forever, but otherwise wasn't a bother.  Yeah, you're not supposed to break laws, but it's so common by all drivers and all modes of transportation (regular, truck deliveries, bicyclists, pedestrians, buses, etc) that it's just a part of life in a city.

My all-time favorite example though is when I picked someone up in Philly and they wanted to go to 30th Street Station (the main Amtrak station in the city).  As I got near the station, the app is telling me to get back on the highway rather than the exit for the train station.  I get back on, and in the middle of the highway, it tells me I reached the destination!!! (Here's where it wanted me to drop them off: https://goo.gl/maps/dwgMYdY4gcm ) Clearly I wasn't going to let them off there, and luckily I knew enough about the area to get them where I needed to take them, but still that was an extra 10 minutes and a few miles in city traffic I didn't need to drive.

As far as standing someplace, honestly that's sometimes not too feasible if there's no shoulder room anywhere.  You can't do it at an intersection.  You can't do it in the middle of a street.  You can't do it as a bus stop.  In some areas, there's just no place to legally stop.  That really is more the fault of the city.

I'm curious - what sort of training do ride-share drivers receive? How does it compare to what traditional taxi drivers received (I admit that I don't know whether or not taxi drivers receive any training)? I assume they verify your record with the DMV - if you have over a certain number of points (or receive points while you're a contractor with them) do they restrict your ability to work for them? Are riders able to report dangerous drivers back to the companies?

As I said, I've only taken the one ride, and my friend was the one with the app, so I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of the company.

Both drivers and passengers rate each other after each ride.  For drivers, it's mandatory.  For passengers, it's optional.  So a really bad driver will be rated low consistently, or should be.  If the driver gets too many low ratings and falls below a certain threshold, they can be dropped from the program as a driver.   In either case, I'm usually rating both the passenger and the driver with 5 stars unless they were really bad, which only happened once: The driver was playing a game on his cell phone while driving and was missing where to turn!

There's no real driver training other than some videos and app things you're supposed to read, which all basically boil down to drive lawfully and safely, and watch out for your own safety and the safety of the passengers.  There's other Youtube videos out there people have created with their own helpful hints and suggestions.

Uber/Lyft does verify your license information, inspection info and/or any other requirements the city or state you're mainly driving in has.  Maryland has a super-intense inspection requirement for Uber drivers.  NJ just wants minimum insurance requirements.  So it can vary greatly.

[BrianP]

They seem to be blaming the wrong people.  They are blaming the users of the service from using another means of transport.  I don't agree with that.  I'd put more of the blame on the drivers. 

I might be mistaken but I thought the initial idea with the ride sharing concept was to take advantage of people that are already on the road.  Like hey I'm going to the airport.  If someone else is also going to airport then I can make a buck and taken them there as well.  But more importantly that's two trips done by one car.

Well the problem is that it expanded past that.  People basically became independent taxi drivers who can set their own hours and are on the roads just to drive people around like taxis.  Without the ride sharing service they would not be on the road. Which that not only wipes out the benefit that ride sharing was supposed to bring, which was more people using the same number of cars, instead it makes things worse by resulting in more cars on the road.   

[jeffandnicole]

They seem to be blaming the wrong people.  They are blaming the users of the service from using another means of transport.  I don't agree with that.  I'd put more of the blame on the drivers. 

I might be mistaken but I thought the initial idea with the ride sharing concept was to take advantage of people that are already on the road.  Like hey I'm going to the airport.  If someone else is also going to airport then I can make a buck and taken them there as well.  But more importantly that's two trips done by one car.

Well the problem is that it expanded past that.  People basically became independent taxi drivers who can set their own hours and are on the roads just to drive people around like taxis.  Without the ride sharing service they would not be on the road. Which that not only wipes out the benefit that ride sharing was supposed to bring, which was more people using the same number of cars, instead it makes things worse by resulting in more cars on the road.   

I don't know the exact history (and honestly, I think history actually starts with Uber and Lyft operating in Europe then coming over to the US).  Many people feel they can live in a city or urban area (or even suburban) and don't need a car, and can get one on demand when needed.  That reduces parking demands, and saves them money as they don't have car payments or insurance.  In that way, they've succeeded well. 

The downside is exactly what you said - other people being on the road that normally wouldn't be on the road.  Uber and Lyft both heavily advertise in recruiting drivers, and many people that drove for them early on have quit because of all the additional drivers on the road. 

The side issue is why are people taking Ubers rather than mass transit.  I think that's a deeper issue that people are blaming Uber/Lyft on...but should be blaming the mass transit agency.  If people are willing to pay $15 or $20 for a ride that would've cost them $2 or $3 via mass transit, there's an issue.  Buses & Trains show up late; they're crowded; passengers can be unruly, talk loud, talk profane, play music, eat smelly food, etc.  Passengers have to walk to and stand outside in sometimes unsheltered areas, transfer to another bus/train, then walk to their destination from their final stop. 

In the past, the only alternative were taxis, and many of those drivers had issues as well.  When the ridesharing option came about, it was a remarkably different experience; one where the passenger is truly in control  They don't have to leave events early because of a limited mass transit schedule late at night.  They don't have to stand outside trying to hail a taxi; one where the driver claims his credit card machine doesn't work and the passengers have to pay cash.  If the passenger had a bad experience, he could probably call the agency or taxi company, but the complaint usually fell on deaf ears.

And that's one more thing too:  The younger generation doesn't tend to spend much cash.  Everything is electronic.  Uber/Lyft is a fully electronic payment system. 

Uber/Lyft succeeds where the government doesn't: Quickly changing to meet today's wants, needs & demands.  A mass transit agency can take years to make changes, if they can do so at all.

So in reality, the complaints need to be directed at agencies where the directors and employees tend to be sheltered from and brush off any criticism.  If I need to go to meetings, write letters, have people sign petitions, and only be told that there's no funding for a bus shelter, when I can just open my phone and get a vehicle to pick me up at my door when it's raining...guess what the obvious answer has become for that.

[tradephoric]

The side issue is why are people taking Ubers rather than mass transit.  I think that's a deeper issue that people are blaming Uber/Lyft on...but should be blaming the mass transit agency.  If people are willing to pay $15 or $20 for a ride that would've cost them $2 or $3 via mass transit, there's an issue.  Buses & Trains show up late; they're crowded; passengers can be unruly, talk loud, talk profane, play music, eat smelly food, etc.  Passengers have to walk to and stand outside in sometimes unsheltered areas, transfer to another bus/train, then walk to their destination from their final stop. 

This video is mesmerizing to watch especially as the bus travels through Manhattan.  There is definitely the convenience factor of going directly to your desired location in an Uber/Lyft vs. dealing with all those stops every few blocks on the bus.  It looks like insanity being a bus driver in NYC!   

[jeffandnicole]

The side issue is why are people taking Ubers rather than mass transit.  I think that's a deeper issue that people are blaming Uber/Lyft on...but should be blaming the mass transit agency.  If people are willing to pay $15 or $20 for a ride that would've cost them $2 or $3 via mass transit, there's an issue.  Buses & Trains show up late; they're crowded; passengers can be unruly, talk loud, talk profane, play music, eat smelly food, etc.  Passengers have to walk to and stand outside in sometimes unsheltered areas, transfer to another bus/train, then walk to their destination from their final stop. 

This video is mesmerizing to watch especially as the bus travels through Manhattan.  There is definitely the convenience factor of going directly to your desired location in an Uber/Lyft vs. dealing with all those stops every few blocks on the bus.  It looks like insanity being a bus driver in NYC!   

When most of us think of bus drivers, we're thinking they drive a loop multiple times a day.  In reality, watching something like this, they drive the route once a day, every day.  And dealing with that traffic when you can't see a damn thing ahead of you has to be nerve-wracking.  It's one thing to suddenly brake; it's another thing to do with a bus load of people...or even a carload of people!

[jon daly]

Is Zipcar still around? My sister and my brother-in-law and nephew live in Queens and I recall them using that one time to visit us.  I think that they have their own POV now.

[kj3400]

The side issue is why are people taking Ubers rather than mass transit.  I think that's a deeper issue that people are blaming Uber/Lyft on...but should be blaming the mass transit agency.  If people are willing to pay $15 or $20 for a ride that would've cost them $2 or $3 via mass transit, there's an issue.  Buses & Trains show up late; they're crowded; passengers can be unruly, talk loud, talk profane, play music, eat smelly food, etc.  Passengers have to walk to and stand outside in sometimes unsheltered areas, transfer to another bus/train, then walk to their destination from their final stop. 

This video is mesmerizing to watch especially as the bus travels through Manhattan.  There is definitely the convenience factor of going directly to your desired location in an Uber/Lyft vs. dealing with all those stops every few blocks on the bus.  It looks like insanity being a bus driver in NYC!   

When most of us think of bus drivers, we're thinking they drive a loop multiple times a day.  In reality, watching something like this, they drive the route once a day, every day.  And dealing with that traffic when you can't see a damn thing ahead of you has to be nerve-wracking.  It's one thing to suddenly brake; it's another thing to do with a bus load of people...or even a carload of people!

Actually, as a bus driver (now), I just wanna point out that the routes we drive and how often we drive them can vary. Sometimes we drive a route to one end and back all day; other times we can drive it to one end and go to another route altogether. The way they make shifts is a bit weird, based on my first experiences with it (I'm still pretty new).

[briantroutman]

I might be mistaken but I thought the initial idea with the ride sharing concept was to take advantage of people that are already on the road.

That's the pretense, but it was always basically a sham so that Uber could skirt a complex web of municipal and state regulations, taxes, and fees regarding taxi licensing, minimum wages, etc.

Is Zipcar still around?

Yes, it and other "car sharing"  (i.e. short term car rental) services still exist.

[jon daly]

Of course, I saw a Zipcar on my commute home.

[NoGoodNamesAvailable]

The side issue is why are people taking Ubers rather than mass transit.  I think that's a deeper issue that people are blaming Uber/Lyft on...but should be blaming the mass transit agency.  If people are willing to pay $15 or $20 for a ride that would've cost them $2 or $3 via mass transit, there's an issue.  Buses & Trains show up late; they're crowded; passengers can be unruly, talk loud, talk profane, play music, eat smelly food, etc.  Passengers have to walk to and stand outside in sometimes unsheltered areas, transfer to another bus/train, then walk to their destination from their final stop. 

This video is mesmerizing to watch especially as the bus travels through Manhattan.  There is definitely the convenience factor of going directly to your desired location in an Uber/Lyft vs. dealing with all those stops every few blocks on the bus.  It looks like insanity being a bus driver in NYC!   

Express bus routes (like the one you linked) make up less than 3% of bus ridership in NYC and fill a specific niche in the transportation demands of the city. Express bus commuters by and large live in the suburban outskirts of the city that are poorly served by transit, and use the express bus for for commutation during traditional hours, going from the outskirts of the city to Manhattan during the morning rush and the reverse in the evening.

The main appeal is the convenience and comfort for the cost, not necessarily the speed. These buses have transverse coach-style seats and it's rare to not find a seat. The routes are circuitous, but for most people it's a one-seat ride between home and work with minimal walking, and you can relax or get work done. Anecdotally, I was happy commuting an hour and 10 minutes each way on Metro-North Railroad, where I was similarly within walking distance on either end of my commute and was always able to get a seat; whereas I find 40 minutes to be about the limit of how far I'm willing to commute driving in traffic or on public transit where I have to stand. At the $6.50 flat fare it's far more economically sustainable than using a rideshare service to commute.

The main decline in transit ridership has been in discretionary travel, not commutation. Express bus routes are heavily commuter-oriented; so they're seeing less loss in ridership compared to local routes, and the loss they are seeing is going more to modes other than rideshare.

Although I do agree local routes (the bread and butter of NYC's bus network) also stop way too often. A stop every 2, 3, 4 blocks is plenty. There is no reason for buses to stop at every block.

[jakeroot]

abrupt stops, routinely stop in no-stopping zones to pick up their fares, etc., etc.

You know we don't get to decide where to stop, right? We have to stop as close as possible to the pins, to avoid customers not being able to find us.

I understand that, but I don't think that supersedes (or should supersede) posted traffic laws. If the sign says "No Stopping Any Time," or it's a traffic lane without any shoulder room (which means stopping holds up all traffic in that lane), then you shouldn't stop.

(Granted, there are taxis, trucks, and private vehicles that violate this law as well, but it's become much more of an issue since the rise of ride-sharing).

There should be a notification in the app when a rider requests a ride to reminds them not to wait somewhere that will impede traffic when they're picked up.

Keep in mind that driving in the city is different than anywhere else. My interpretation of city driving is that lanes are...variable. Buses, limos, taxis, tractors (yes), ride share, trash trucks...these vehicles sometimes have to stop on the edge of the roadway because they have no other option. What I see 99% of the time is the lane of travel shift around these vehicles when they're stopped, so that no one is actually having to wait behind them. This is really notable in New York City, where cars just sort of float all over the place. But in pretty much every city, people overtake stopped vehicles regardless of the lane to their left; look for oncoming vehicles if necessary, and go. Often times, you'll see oncoming drivers scoot to their right to accommodate oncoming vehicles passing a stopped vehicle. While perhaps not technically legal, it's accepted practice (in virtually every city, including here in Seattle) to overtake stopped vehicles in the center two-way left turn lanes, or across a double yellow. Less common, but I've seen drivers use the sidewalk to pass on the right as well. Don't see that in the suburbs!

If you spend almost all of your time driving in the suburbs, this kind of behavior can seem a bit jarring (it would seem that no one gives a damn about the rules). But in most cases, the rules are not always compatible with what the roadway users are asking of it, so drivers just kind of change things as they see fit, to work with what is going on at that point. If no one ever stopped where they weren't "supposed to", drivers wouldn't need to change their habits like they've had to. But, since many vehicles simply have no choice but to occasionally stop in a lane of traffic, it's better for drivers to simply accommodate them, rather than get enraged or try and work towards a solution to limit how often vehicles stop on the right.

Would it be nice if people waited at an open curb cut? Certainly, but signs don't point to that happening. Uber has pick up points in their app now, but they don't always seem to coordinate to loading zones.

[DTComposer]

Keep in mind that driving in the city is different than anywhere else.
...
Don't see that in the suburbs!
...
If you spend almost all of your time driving in the suburbs,

Please notice from my original comment that my (admittedly anecdotal) observations were based nearly entirely on interactions in downtown San Francisco. I would never presume that driving there (or any high-density downtown district) is going to be, or should be, the same as driving in lower-density urban or suburban areas. It is a totally different mindset requiring a different set of skills, much as freeway driving requires a differing set of skills from surface street driving.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I've been driving many more years than your profile says you've been alive, and most of that has been in urban, not suburban, situations. I get it.

My interpretation of city driving is that lanes are...variable. Buses, limos, taxis, tractors (yes), ride share, trash trucks...these vehicles sometimes have to stop on the edge of the roadway because they have no other option.

But buses nearly always have dedicated areas for stops in parking lanes. Trash trucks do the majority of their pickups in late night or early morning hours. San Francisco has dedicated passenger and/or delivery loading/unloading zones on nearly every block.

In terms of ride-share what I'm seeing is the abrupt, sudden stopping in a through traffic lane, often in rush hour on streets leading to and from freeways and arterials, and a lack of urgency among both driver and passenger to minimize the time spent at a stop.

And, were lane-blocking the only issue, then sure, it's annoying, it's illegal...but couple this with the dangerous lane-changes, turns, and other driving practices...that's where it becomes an issue with me. Taxi drivers have intimate knowledge of the city and directions. Buses have a fixed route and clearly marked stops. Trash trucks predictably stop for each business/residence. Ride-share drivers have the same unpredictable pick-up/drop-off points and routes as taxis, but seem to do it without the institutional knowledge of the city or spatial awareness as drivers, and this has caused an increase in dangerous and/or illegal driving practices in downtown districts.

it's better for drivers to simply accommodate them, rather than get enraged or try and work towards a solution to limit how often vehicles stop on the right.

Am I correct in parsing this as "just accept the problem rather than 'try and work towards a solution'?"

I'm sorry if this comes across as argumentative; I'm not trying to pick a battle. And please know I'm not saying ride-share services should be banned, or that 100% of their drivers are awful. What I am saying is that a significant number of ride-share drivers seem to feel empowered to do things that they wouldn't do if they were 'private' vehicles, and this has increased congestion and lowered safety.

[jeffandnicole]

But buses nearly always have dedicated areas for stops in parking lanes. Trash trucks do the majority of their pickups in late night or early morning hours. San Francisco has dedicated passenger and/or delivery loading/unloading zones on nearly every block.

While true, it's not guaranteed they're always used.  Or if a car parks illegally in any of those spots, the bus or truck winds up staying in the street - Especially buses.  Granted it's usually for a very short period of time, but it does happen quite often.

Taxi drivers have intimate knowledge of the city and directions.

I nearly spit out my drink at this one.  Sure, some taxi drivers are very familiar with the city.  But not all.  By far.  Many of them drive around talking in their native language on a cell phone the entire time.  Many of them zip and weave thru traffic and slam on their brakes when they still don't make the light.  Many of them will drive further than they need to by jumping on the highway.  Sure, it seems faster, but in reality they're just adding several miles - and dollars - to the meter.  Most tourists aren't the wiser.

As a group, you are giving taxi drivers way too much credit here.

it's better for drivers to simply accommodate them, rather than get enraged or try and work towards a solution to limit how often vehicles stop on the right.

Am I correct in parsing this as "just accept the problem rather than 'try and work towards a solution'?"

Using Philly as an example, which the Philadelphia Parking Authority has been very resistive to Uber/Lyft, it took a state law to overturn ridesharing illegalities.  Even now, there aren't many places that you'll see signs for Uber/Lyft.  I was trying to pick someone up at a Phillies game recently and there's no central point for drivers.  I basically had to get on the phone with the rider and we had to figure out where each other was at.  He was just visiting the city, so he was unfamiliar with the various landmarks around the ballpark making it more difficult.

However in Atlanta, they have an entire Uber/Lyft line near and alongside their stadium, with very large signage and corrals to help you thru the line. 

(At least Philly's airport actually did a decent job with their Uber/Lyft waiting area, which is just south of the terminals.  It's a very quick ride to pick someone up.)

So can Uber/Lyft pickup/dropoff points be improved?  To an extent.  But if someone wants to be dropped off at a building in town, or picked up at their house on a narrow street, it can be sometimes difficult to find a truly perfect point to do so. 

[jakeroot]

Please notice from my original comment that my (admittedly anecdotal) observations were based nearly entirely on interactions in downtown San Francisco. I would never presume that driving there (or any high-density downtown district) is going to be, or should be, the same as driving in lower-density urban or suburban areas. It is a totally different mindset requiring a different set of skills, much as freeway driving requires a differing set of skills from surface street driving.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I've been driving many more years than your profile says you've been alive, and most of that has been in urban, not suburban, situations. I get it.

Not at all. Unlike those my age, I'm perfectly willing to accept criticism. I have been driving in urban areas of Seattle for almost seven years now, which is not a very long time, but it has been long enough for me to get a basic grip on what urban driving is like. I have certainly put more miles on my odometer in Seattle than any of my family members, however, which affords me top expertise when driving there; my parents both live in urban areas now (downtown Tacoma and Washington DC), so they're quickly catching up to me in terms of understanding the woes of urban driving. I'm still top-dog though.

One thing they haven't learned (and, respectfully, it doesn't seem like you have either) is the ability to accept urban driving for what it is: chaotic and (as I said earlier) variable. People who aren't willing to accept this are those that are constantly yelling through their windscreen (or in their mind), as though they have any control over the situation. It's fine to not agree with what's happening, but if you want change, don't start with the drivers. They are taking advantage of an urban culture that is largely accepting of "chaos". My grandfather gets extremely angry any time he drives in the city, because he's used to a more relaxed suburban, or even rural, driving style, a style which is largely law-abiding. In the city, however, we constantly see things that we don't see out in the country. One of these things is vehicles stopping in an active lane of traffic. Out in rural areas, this will certainly get you rear-ended (lack of driver expectancy being the key cause); not so in the city. I'm pretty certain that about 1/4 mile of every 20 I drive in Seattle is in either the center turn lane, or oncoming lane, because there are so many vehicles stopped in the right lane (or only lane). At this point, I'm so used to it, I've learned to accept it. 16 or 17 year old Jake would have blown his horn and gestured. 22 year old Jake is accepting and able to move on, since it's so common it's not worth the energy. Never mind that road rage usually gets me 1 star .

A way to at least fix buses stopping in active lanes of traffic is to build bus-exclusive lanes or lay-bys. While the latter is largely acceptable by most, the former is very often fought by at least a vocal minority (which results in more buses stopping in the right lane of travel -- something I'm used to and accept, but some do not). Seattle has installed many bus-only lanes, but 95%+ of bus routes and stops are still along roadways with at-best parking zones along their edge (more and more in Seattle having curb paint indicating bus-only). Common in Seattle is a curb extension, so bus patrons can wait closer to the road without interfering with cyclists (plus it allows buses to more easily enter traffic, though it can be awkward with vehicles overtaking).

And to add on to J&N's last paragraphs, virtually all accommodation for TNC vehicles is not for use by ride share (taxi and private-hire only). In the case of the two stadiums south of Seattle (CenturyLink and Safeco), there are zero waiting areas for anyone except [maybe] buses. All I can hope for is for my patron to be waiting near the street, and to have some idea of what my car looks like, because stopping here for more than ten seconds will get me a few horns and perhaps a police talking-to (mostly because it's a very busy area, and a blocked lane can ruin any chance of traffic flow improving -- I know when I'm in the wrong). Any other time and it wouldn't be so bad. A bigger issue, though, is that city councillors would prefer people took transit, not ride share, so they aren't quick to accommodate TNC vehicles (if at all).

Sure, some taxi drivers are very familiar with the city.  But not all.  By far.  Many of them drive around talking in their native language on a cell phone the entire time.  Many of them zip and weave thru traffic and slam on their brakes when they still don't make the light.  Many of them will drive further than they need to by jumping on the highway.  Sure, it seems faster, but in reality they're just adding several miles - and dollars - to the meter.  Most tourists aren't the wiser.

Agreed. They are often quite slow too, apparently attempting to rack up the meter. The only taxi drivers worth a damn IMO are those in giant metropolises, such as NYC, London, Paris, or Tokyo.

Also consider how many Uber and Lyft drivers are former taxi drivers. Certainly if they were all experts, we wouldn't see so many Uber and Lyft drivers who don't always seem like they know what they're doing.

[DTComposer]

Please notice from my original comment that my (admittedly anecdotal) observations were based nearly entirely on interactions in downtown San Francisco. I would never presume that driving there (or any high-density downtown district) is going to be, or should be, the same as driving in lower-density urban or suburban areas. It is a totally different mindset requiring a different set of skills, much as freeway driving requires a differing set of skills from surface street driving.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I've been driving many more years than your profile says you've been alive, and most of that has been in urban, not suburban, situations. I get it.

Not at all. Unlike those my age, I'm perfectly willing to accept criticism. I have been driving in urban areas of Seattle for almost seven years now, which is not a very long time, but it has been long enough for me to get a basic grip on what urban driving is like. I have certainly put more miles on my odometer in Seattle than any of my family members, however, which affords me top expertise when driving there; my parents both live in urban areas now (downtown Tacoma and Washington DC), so they're quickly catching up to me in terms of understanding the woes of urban driving. I'm still top-dog though.

One thing they haven't learned (and, respectfully, it doesn't seem like you have either) is the ability to accept urban driving for what it is: chaotic and (as I said earlier) variable. People who aren't willing to accept this are those that are constantly yelling through their windscreen (or in their mind), as though they have any control over the situation.

I appreciate your perspective and civility. That said (and it could very well be my wording), you are mistaken about whether I have "accepted" urban driving - I accepted it years and years ago. And it doesn't make me angry in the sense that I'm shaking my fist and shouting obscenities (either literally or figuratively).

When I had my learner's permit, my parents wouldn't let me take my driving test until I had driven with confidence and skill in three situations:
-CA-17 between Los Gatos and Santa Cruz and back;
-I-280 along the Peninsula (this was back when it had more of an Autobahn flow to it);
-Getting into and out of downtown San Francisco.
They taught me that the moment you let down your guard is when you get into trouble, and that you always assume the other drivers will do something that is unthinking, unsafe, or illegal, and you always have an escape/avoidance plan from those drivers.

All that said, just because I accept something, and just because it doesn't enrage me, doesn't mean I don't think we should find solutions rather than letting the situation become worse - which was my original point: driving in the city, which has always been "variable," has (in my experience) become more so, and out of proportion to the growth in population and/or employment.

It's fine to not agree with what's happening, but if you want change, don't start with the drivers. They are taking advantage of an urban culture that is largely accepting of "chaos".

There's "taking advantage...of chaos" (by which I assume you're talking about the lane blocking and such, and while I don't like it increasing, I agree it is in many instances a necessary evil), and there's blatantly unsafe and illegal maneuvers, such as trying to jump a light to turn across traffic from a non-turn lane to pick up a fare (which I saw again by the Caltrain station yesterday). That's completely on the driver.

(as an aside, there is one driving situation which does piss me off - when drivers on a free-flowing freeway suddenly change two or more lanes in order to make their exit. I will mentally shake my fist all day at those people!)

Sure, some taxi drivers are very familiar with the city.  But not all.  By far.  Many of them drive around talking in their native language on a cell phone the entire time.  Many of them zip and weave thru traffic and slam on their brakes when they still don't make the light.  Many of them will drive further than they need to by jumping on the highway.  Sure, it seems faster, but in reality they're just adding several miles - and dollars - to the meter.  Most tourists aren't the wiser.

Agreed. They are often quite slow too, apparently attempting to rack up the meter. The only taxi drivers worth a damn IMO are those in giant metropolises, such as NYC, London, Paris, or Tokyo.

Also consider how many Uber and Lyft drivers are former taxi drivers. Certainly if they were all experts, we wouldn't see so many Uber and Lyft drivers who don't always seem like they know what they're doing.

That's an interesting thought - what is the percentage that are former taxi drivers? Why do they switch? Do they make more money with Uber/Lyft? I know some taxi drivers are unionized, but I don't know how many get any sort of benefits, so I'm curious what the motivation would be to switch.

I freely admit that my experience with taxis is limited - I have taken perhaps 40 taxi rides in my life and all except two were in San Francisco or Manhattan. And in all cases, I knew exactly where I was supposed to be going, so if they had deviated from what I would consider a "normal" route I would have known.

[jeffandnicole]

That's an interesting thought - what is the percentage that are former taxi drivers? Why do they switch? Do they make more money with Uber/Lyft? I know some taxi drivers are unionized, but I don't know how many get any sort of benefits, so I'm curious what the motivation would be to switch.

Motivation:  Simple: They aren't making enough money driving a taxi anymore as they're waiting longer and longer for rides.

In many cases, they're not switching completely.  They're still driving a taxi.  On their own time, they drive their own vehicle for Uber/Lyft.

[jbnv]

I have driven since late 2016 in Baton Rouge. I haven't driven much over the last few months as I have been busy with my day job.

I have received plenty of complements about how people prefer my service over cabs. Nobody ever says they prefer cabs over ridesharing.