Birmingham

[sparker]

Welcome to old-style Southern politics.

Not so old at all -- you folks in AL almost didn't get I-22 designated because of bad blood between former senators Trent Lott (R-MS) and Bill Frist (R-TN), successive Senate majority leaders in the '90's and early '00's.  Frist attempted to keep any bill authorizing I-22 off the floor to punish Lott and MS, which hosted about 60% of the corridor; it wasn't until late 2003/early 2004 that Sen. Shelby (R-AL) threatened what amounted to open revolt against Frist if he stood in the way of the authorization, which resulted in the authorizing language (contained within the HPC-45 addition to the '04-'05 transportation funding bill) remaining intact.  Intra-party feuding from adjoining states might well have sunk one of the more useful Interstate additions! 

[Tourian]

Welcome to old-style Southern politics.

Not so old at all -- you folks in AL almost didn't get I-22 designated because of bad blood between former senators Trent Lott (R-MS) and Bill Frist (R-TN), successive Senate majority leaders in the '90's and early '00's.  Frist attempted to keep any bill authorizing I-22 off the floor to punish Lott and MS, which hosted about 60% of the corridor; it wasn't until late 2003/early 2004 that Sen. Shelby (R-AL) threatened what amounted to open revolt against Frist if he stood in the way of the authorization, which resulted in the authorizing language (contained within the HPC-45 addition to the '04-'05 transportation funding bill) remaining intact.  Intra-party feuding from adjoining states might well have sunk one of the more useful Interstate additions! 

That's interesting, I've never heard that part of the story. These two links describe the efforts of a local business man who had to woo the Alabama legislation to not pursue the favored (at the time) MEM-HSV-ATL route because it would put most of the road in TN.

http://alabamanewscenter.com/2016/06/20/22-finally-connects-birmingham-memphis/

http://www.businessalabama.com/Business-Alabama/October-2015/Lynchpin-I-22-Nears-Completion/

[sparker]

Welcome to old-style Southern politics.

Not so old at all -- you folks in AL almost didn't get I-22 designated because of bad blood between former senators Trent Lott (R-MS) and Bill Frist (R-TN), successive Senate majority leaders in the '90's and early '00's.  Frist attempted to keep any bill authorizing I-22 off the floor to punish Lott and MS, which hosted about 60% of the corridor; it wasn't until late 2003/early 2004 that Sen. Shelby (R-AL) threatened what amounted to open revolt against Frist if he stood in the way of the authorization, which resulted in the authorizing language (contained within the HPC-45 addition to the '04-'05 transportation funding bill) remaining intact.  Intra-party feuding from adjoining states might well have sunk one of the more useful Interstate additions! 

That's interesting, I've never heard that part of the story. These two links describe the efforts of a local business man who had to woo the Alabama legislation to not pursue the favored (at the time) MEM-HSV-ATL route because it would put most of the road in TN.

http://alabamanewscenter.com/2016/06/20/22-finally-connects-birmingham-memphis/

http://www.businessalabama.com/Business-Alabama/October-2015/Lynchpin-I-22-Nears-Completion/

Right -- the "dust-up" among Lott, Shelby, and Frist occurred well after the decision was made to concentrate AL state efforts on Corridor X rather than a Huntsville routing (already in the AHDS as Corridor V east of Florence, AL).  It didn't affect the routing decision; rather it threatened to interrupt the funding stream to the corridor. 

Some longtime family friends hail from Jasper; one of their visits home coincided with one of my own trips to Atlanta to visit my GF's family, so I met them for lunch in Jasper -- and one of their close friends joining us was the director of the town's chamber of commerce (his name escapes me today).  During the meal the subject of the freeway came up (this was in early 2002; the then-US 78 freeway still ended at AL 129 near Winfield) and the tale of the senatorial troubles was related to myself & my friends.  When asked for my opinion regarding this potential setback; I mentioned that they may need to pull MS & Lott out of the equation and possibly assume more responsibility for the project themselves.  The C of C fellow said that he and the local congressman (who turned out to be Aderholt) had a decent working relationship, and that he'd talk to him about the situation.  I took my leave soon afterwards due to a dinner reservation in Atlanta that evening; I still had 200+ miles to go.  When I got back to CA a few weeks later, my friends from Jasper said that their friend from the Chamber had indeed talked to Aderholt, but that they didn't know what came of the conversation.  I'm presuming the outcome was somewhat positive -- since 2 years later the I-22 authorizing language got into the '04-'05 appropriations bill -- spearheaded by Aderholt in the House and Shelby in the Senate.           

[bigdave]

That's interesting, I've never heard that part of the story. These two links describe the efforts of a local business man who had to woo the Alabama legislation to not pursue the favored (at the time) MEM-HSV-ATL route because it would put most of the road in TN.

http://alabamanewscenter.com/2016/06/20/22-finally-connects-birmingham-memphis/

http://www.businessalabama.com/Business-Alabama/October-2015/Lynchpin-I-22-Nears-Completion/

The line that most of the referenced route would be in TN is just baloney.

Birmingham booster Joe Fuller, a local insurance executive, was then serving as chair of the Chamber’s Transportation Committee. He put it in vivid perspective early on. The re-routing of Corridor X through Huntsville would’ve essentially put the vast majority of the new road within the state of Tennessee, not Alabama. At a legislative committee meeting in Montgomery where the re-routing was being favorably discussed, Joe asked, “What is this, a meeting of the Tennessee legislature?” He powerfully made his point and it was “game on.”

The route would have largely followed US 72 (and alt US 72) to Memphis. Nor was there any discussion of re-routing Corridor X. Much of the US 72 and alt US 72 is of course Corridor V. It was a fight for money between X and V.

http://www.gadsdentimes.com/article/DA/20030222/News/603217252/GT/

You can look at a map and see how much of US 72 is in TN. It ain't much.

I don't know why the authors concocted such a story. I wrote to al.com to complain about their publishing this story with errors, but the response was that the story was an opinion piece and they would pass the comments along to the authors..

There were many excellent reasons to route the MEM-ATL highway through BHM. BHM needed I-22.

But the argument that routing through HSV would put most of the road in TN is nonsense.

[Tourian]

I did notice that too (about where 72 is now) but assumed that whatever route they were planning would not overlay exactly but rather be more TN-centric. That maybe some earlier proposal favored TN more. I do realize though the plan ultimately was to upgrade 72 to interstate status like 78 was in some spots and that didnt have any significant precense in TN.

[bigdave]

I did notice that too (about where 72 is now) but assumed that whatever route they were planning would not overlay exactly but rather be more TN-centric. That maybe some earlier proposal favored TN more. I do realize though the plan ultimately was to upgrade 72 to interstate status like 78 was in some spots and that didnt have any significant precense in TN.

There was never a route with much presence in TN, and you have only to look to I-22 for the proof. There will never be even one mile of I-22 in Tennessee - with that lack of interest on the part of the Volunteer State, how could anybody imagine that TN would be interested in US 72. The Vols four-laned US 64 through southern TN and called it a day.

Mississippi had no interest in a US 72 upgrade as they had already built up US 78 as a freeway, even if not to Interstate standards. And Georgia was maybe going to upgrade a few roads, but no new freeway.

Had the plan somehow come to fruition, it would have taken far longer than even I-422 to build in its entirety. 

[Tourian]

There was never a route with much presence in TN, and you have only to look to I-22 for the proof. There will never be even one mile of I-22 in Tennessee - with that lack of interest on the part of the Volunteer State, how could anybody imagine that TN would be interested in US 72. The Vols four-laned US 64 through southern TN and called it a day.

I don't see how 22 is proof of anything but what it is. I just take them for their word that upgrading Lamar is too expensive and that someday, Memphis will have an outer loop that 22 will attach too. I can't draw the conclusion that you can that any of that has anything to do with what Fuller was claiming unless I was there the day he said it or was on the planning commission from the start.

Had the plan somehow come to fruition, it would have taken far longer than even I-422 to build in its entirety. 

Umm, okay. How long is 422 going to take?

[bigdave]

I don't see how 22 is proof of anything but what it is. I just take them for their word that upgrading Lamar is too expensive and that someday, Memphis will have an outer loop that 22 will attach too. I can't draw the conclusion that you can that any of that has anything to do with what Fuller was claiming unless I was there the day he said it or was on the planning commission from the start.

I-22 eventually will connect with I-269 in Mississippi. There will never be a mile of I-22 in the state of Tennessee.

Umm, okay. How long is 422 going to take?

2054. Thirty seven years from now - that's actually ALDoT's estimate.

http://betterbeltline.org/faqs.php

Projected cost now over $5.3 billion give or take. It's inheriting the Appalachian Development (APD) Highway System money.

[Tourian]

I-22 eventually will connect with I-269 in Mississippi. There will never be a mile of I-22 in the state of Tennessee.

Right. That isn't contrary to what I said, nor do see any connection to what may have gone on through the planning stages of the MEM-HSV-ATL route. With the way it ended up there is very little of it in TN to begin with that isn't expensive unalterable Lamar.

2054. Thirty seven years from now - that's actually ALDoT's estimate.

I'm aware of that site and their estimates, but from the boldness of your last post you seemed to have other more specific knowledge. Thanks, though.

[bigdave]

I'm aware of that site and their estimates, but from the boldness of your last post you seemed to have other more specific knowledge. Thanks, though.

The "betterbeltline" site is operated by ALDoT - that should be as specific as would be available. Except road work in this state never gets done on schedule so 2054 may be optimistic.

http://rp.dot.state.al.us/BNB/

[froggie]

It's inheriting the Appalachian Development (APD) Highway System money.

The funny thing here is that there is no more APD highway money.  MAP-21 got rid of it.  Money for Appalachian Corridor road projects is now taken from each state's normal Federal highway funding allotment.

[bigdave]

The funny thing here is that there is no more APD highway money.  MAP-21 got rid of it.  Money for Appalachian Corridor road projects is now taken from each state's normal Federal highway funding allotment.

I looked more closely and you are correct. That makes this project even sadder, given that its primary purpose is to enrich large landowners in rural JeffCo. There are important projects in the BHM area and the rest of the state that won't happen while this beltline sucks up over $5 billion.

Where will the money come from?
Because Congress made the Appalachian Development (APD) Highway System a priority, any projects on the BNB that are authorized by September 30, 2050 are eligible for 100% Federal funding, with no requirement for matching funds from the State. The first phase of the Beltline was constructed using the remaining designated APD funds. Remaining APD projects will be funded from ALDOT's overall funding. Specific project funding is determined based upon available funding and needs assessment, among other considerations.

[ukfan758]

The funny thing here is that there is no more APD highway money.  MAP-21 got rid of it.  Money for Appalachian Corridor road projects is now taken from each state's normal Federal highway funding allotment.

I looked more closely and you are correct. That makes this project even sadder, given that its primary purpose is to enrich large landowners in rural JeffCo. There are important projects in the BHM area and the rest of the state that won't happen while this beltline sucks up over $5 billion.

Where will the money come from?
Because Congress made the Appalachian Development (APD) Highway System a priority, any projects on the BNB that are authorized by September 30, 2050 are eligible for 100% Federal funding, with no requirement for matching funds from the State. The first phase of the Beltline was constructed using the remaining designated APD funds. Remaining APD projects will be funded from ALDOT's overall funding. Specific project funding is determined based upon available funding and needs assessment, among other considerations.

Instead of dumping 5 billion on a loop that will serve little to no purpose and take decades to complete, I think these things should have been considered instead (though doing all would probably exceed 5 billion):

-*Make Malfunction Junction a stack interchange

-*Eight-lane 65 from downtown to 459, include wide shoulders (AADT 120,000-140,000; really needed from a capacity and safety standpoint)

-*Six-lane 65 from Pelham/Alabaster to Prattville/Montgomery (AADT 35,000-40,000, truck route, much higher during spring break, two cities that really need a six-lane highway connector)

-Periodically six-lane 65 or widen completely to six lanes from HWY 91 to TN state line. (AADT 30,000-40,000; truck route, much higher during spring break, benefits statewide travel)

-*Widen 565 from I-65 to Alt US-72 to six lanes (AADT 50,000-60,000; Huntsville is rapidly growing, needs the extra lanes)

-Widen I-20/59 to eight lanes from I-359 to Skyland Blvd in Tuscaloosa (AADT ~52,000; lots of cars join and then exit in this section)

-Widen I-20/59 to six lanes from I-359 to Joe Mallisham Pkwy (AADT 32,000; eliminates a potentially dangerous eight-lane to four-lane transition)

-*Widen I-20/59 to six lanes from Valley Rd to 459 (AADT 40,000-60,000; should have been done decades ago)

-Periodically widen 65 to six lanes from Montgomery to Mobile (AADT 20,000-30,000; not necessary to six-lane the entire thing, but an extra lane for a few miles every 10 to 20 would really help during spring break and daily travel)

-Widen I-20 to six lanes from Oporto Madrid Blvd to I-59 (AADT ~62,000; makes I-20 six lanes from the split to I-459)

*= Most Important

[codyg1985]

Some thoughts on the list above:

1. The way things are going with the current I-20/59/65 interchange reconfiguration, I highly doubt it will ever be a symmetrical stack. More ramps are being added which should help to eliminate weaving on I-20/59 between I-65 and the viaduct at the BJCC. The ramps essentially move the decision point to enter downtown upstream to the other three approaches into the 20/50/65 interchange.

2. If this ever happens it will be in the form of a managed toll lane (perhaps elevated). It would be incredibly expensive to add a lane through there because of the mountainous terrain.

3. I think this will slowly happen over time. In the fall a project is supposed to be let to extend the widening down from the tank farm exit (Shelby CR 52) south to US 31 in Alabaster. I would take this a step further and make 65 eight lanes south to the AL 25 exit in Calera.

4. I agree with that. At one time there was a firm plan to widen I-65 north to AL 69 North I believe, but that has been put on the backburner due to funding. That stretch is currently being resurfaced. Some immediate improvements would happen if truck lanes were added on NB 65 approaching the 69 South exit and on SB 65 past the US 31 exit at Lacon.

5. Huntsville/ALDOT has that on the back burner for now. It will happen eventually. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

6. There is an auxillary lane between 359 and US 82/McFarland now which I figure will be retained when additional lanes in each direction are added. To my knowledge, I don't think the extra lane will be extended east to US 11/Skyland.

7. That is actually on the long range plan for ALDOT. Honestly I think that over time the entire corridor to the I-20/59 split in Meridian (especially west of US 80) should be six lanes eventually, but that is a low priority compared to the other items you have mentioned. It would future-proof the corridor for increased truck traffic and also be helpful during hurricane evacuations.

8. That is planned, but, as some of these other projects are, they are on the long range plan and aren't planned in the near-term.

9. It would also help during hurricane evacuations. As you mention the traffic along this portion of 65 isn't as heavy as it is north of Montgomery, but it would be a good future proof move.

10. As far as I know this isn't planned. The viaduct east of the I-20/59 split would make this rather expensive. An immediate improvement would be to make I-20 east just coming off of I-59 two through lanes. Right now there is only one through lane as you exit I-20/59 to continue east on 20. The right lane becomes a lane drop to access US 11.

Out of your list I would rank item 3 the first priority, followed by item 2 and 4. One item that isn't on your list that should be addressed is US 280 between the US/280 split in Homewood and Chelsea. There have been many plans floated over the years to either convert it to a freeway or add an elevated toll lane. Access management techniques and signal timing have been adjusted along the 280 corridor from US 31/280 to Brook Highland, but I think more needs to be done. I am not sure if a freeway is the answer here. It would be nice, but also expensive. This may be another situation where a toll lane would be the most feasible. Here and along I-65 are areas in the state where I think a managed toll lane would work well.

[froggie]

Honestly I think that over time the entire corridor to the I-20/59 split in Meridian (especially west of US 80) should be six lanes eventually, but that is a low priority compared to the other items you have mentioned. It would future-proof the corridor for increased truck traffic and also be helpful during hurricane evacuations.

I highly doubt you'll see this in our lifetimes.  Traffic on 20/59 drops off considerably west of Tuscaloosa (basically half of 20/59's traffic between McFarland and 359 exits at 359).  Current daily traffic volumes even drop below 20K on a couple stretches between Eutaw and York, and none of the corridor west of Exit 68 gets above 30K until you reach US 45.  Also, contrary to what some may believe, traffic growth has been basically flat between Meridian and Tuscaloosa...just about everything between US 45 and Eutaw has less traffic now than it did in 2006.  And if Alabama is ever successful in building their "I-85 Extension", you'd see even less of a potential increase in traffic.

Regarding hurricane evacuations....based on my own Katrina evac experience, 20/59 did not have an issue.

[bigdave]

Is there an easy place to find these traffic counts?

TIA.

[froggie]

Alabama annualized daily volumes, 2015 is the most recent year.

Mississippi annualized daily volumes, 2016 being the most recent year.

[ukfan758]

Is there an easy place to find these traffic counts?

TIA.

I google searched "Alabama AADT", first or second result.

[bigdave]

ukfan758 and froggie - thank you!

David

[barcncpt44]

Out of your list I would rank item 3 the first priority, followed by item 2 and 4. One item that isn't on your list that should be addressed is US 280 between the US/280 split in Homewood and Chelsea. There have been many plans floated over the years to either convert it to a freeway or add an elevated toll lane. Access management techniques and signal timing have been adjusted along the 280 corridor from US 31/280 to Brook Highland, but I think more needs to be done. I am not sure if a freeway is the answer here. It would be nice, but also expensive. This may be another situation where a toll lane would be the most feasible. Here and along I-65 are areas in the state where I think a managed toll lane would work well.

Heck, I don't think anything will be done to US 280, which has an AADT of over 100,000 between I-459 and the US 31 Homewood split.  The people living along that stretch have already shot down any attempt to improve the road from the elevated toll lanes to the conversion to a full freeway.  I think the only thing that can be done is to build a new freeway between I-65 and connect it to US 280 between Chelsea and Childersburg. 

It would really help the communities of Sylacauga and Alexander City which have both been struggling with job losses, especially Alex City which has lost many jobs with Russell leaving town.  And it would also serve as an alternative to people living along US 280 in southern Shelby County to get to Birmingham.

If that was to be done, I-65 MUST be widened to 6-lanes all the way through Shelby County though.

[codyg1985]

Out of your list I would rank item 3 the first priority, followed by item 2 and 4. One item that isn't on your list that should be addressed is US 280 between the US/280 split in Homewood and Chelsea. There have been many plans floated over the years to either convert it to a freeway or add an elevated toll lane. Access management techniques and signal timing have been adjusted along the 280 corridor from US 31/280 to Brook Highland, but I think more needs to be done. I am not sure if a freeway is the answer here. It would be nice, but also expensive. This may be another situation where a toll lane would be the most feasible. Here and along I-65 are areas in the state where I think a managed toll lane would work well.

Heck, I don't think anything will be done to US 280, which has an AADT of over 100,000 between I-459 and the US 31 Homewood split.  The people living along that stretch have already shot down any attempt to improve the road from the elevated toll lanes to the conversion to a full freeway.  I think the only thing that can be done is to build a new freeway between I-65 and connect it to US 280 between Chelsea and Childersburg. 

It would really help the communities of Sylacauga and Alexander City which have both been struggling with job losses, especially Alex City which has lost many jobs with Russell leaving town.  And it would also serve as an alternative to people living along US 280 in southern Shelby County to get to Birmingham.

If that was to be done, I-65 MUST be widened to 6-lanes all the way through Shelby County though.

I would take it a step further and say that 65 would need to be a least eight lanes in Shelby County and ten lanes in Jefferson County.

The issue with the southern freeway that I could see is that I'm not sure how many people north of Double Oak Mountain would use that freeway since it would be out of the way. While Chelsea has experienced rapid growth, I don't think that the folks in Brook Highland and on the north side of Double Oak Mountain would use this new freeway. It would help somewhat with US 280 traffic, but I wonder if it would have as much of an impact.

I think another option would be a parallel route to the northeast of US 280 between 119 and I-459 near Liberty Pkwy. The issue with that is that it would be difficult to continue this route to the northwest since it would run smack dab into Cahaba Heights. At least this option would help somewhat with congestion between 459 and Double Oak Mountain.  Another potential issue with this, however, is that it would more than likely come close to Lake Purdy which is one of the main sources of drinking water for metro Birmingham. It would take a lot to prevent another US 98 in Mobile incident.

[Tourian]

I'm aware of that site and their estimates, but from the boldness of your last post you seemed to have other more specific knowledge. Thanks, though.

The "betterbeltline" site is operated by ALDoT - that should be as specific as would be available. Except road work in this state never gets done on schedule so 2054 may be optimistic.

http://rp.dot.state.al.us/BNB/

Yeah, I know who maintains the site. Thanks.

[Charles2]

Get ready for another exit ramp closure...

http://5920bridge.com/11th-avenue-north-exit-ramp-closure-in-birmingham/

I'm not sure how much of an impact this closure will have, except for morning commuters coming into downtown from the eastern part of the metro.  One rarely sees a lot of traffic on this particular ramp during the day.

[codyg1985]

Get ready for another exit ramp closure...

http://5920bridge.com/11th-avenue-north-exit-ramp-closure-in-birmingham/

I'm not sure how much of an impact this closure will have, except for morning commuters coming into downtown from the eastern part of the metro.  One rarely sees a lot of traffic on this particular ramp during the day.

The first major closure from Phase III...

[Charles2]

Get ready for another exit ramp closure...

http://5920bridge.com/11th-avenue-north-exit-ramp-closure-in-birmingham/

I'm not sure how much of an impact this closure will have, except for morning commuters coming into downtown from the eastern part of the metro.  One rarely sees a lot of traffic on this particular ramp during the day.

The first major closure from Phase III...

I can hardly wait to hear people bellyaching and griping.  What gets me is how few people who live here in Birmingham know how to get around town without using 20, 59, 65 or 459.  When I was teaching my daughter how to drive I made sure that learned the surface streets here in town.