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Author Topic: Ontario's Highways  (Read 221076 times)

jakeroot

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #975 on: January 14, 2018, 10:23:49 PM »

Going the other way the speed limit is 100, with an 80km/h advsory speed through the interchange -- much like this will be once the rest of the freeway networks open.

The reason that I posted all of those examples is that I found it annoying that you purported that there was somehow something wrong with how speed limit drop was managed without:
(a) actually seeing the interchange configuration; or
(b) being a traffic engineer.

I've not designed a freeway terminus either, but I've seen enough of them to know that what has been designed here is within the realm or normalcy in both Ontario and other locales in North America.

My entire point from the beginning was that I thought it was a little ridiculous for the limit to drop 3 kilometres in advance. It was explained to me that this was due to the end of the freeway, plus the curve for the directional-T interchange (see cbeach40's most recent reply on 10 Jan). I thought that was kind of silly, since advisory limits were supposed to be used for curves, and lowering the limit that far in advance might cause a differential in speeds (some continuing at 100, some lowering to 80). Even you stated above that "the ramps that have opened as part of the 407 extension have been consistently some of the fastest freeway to freeway ramps in Ontario".

I may not have stated it directly, but I would prefer to see the limit remain 100 until about a kilometre before Taunton Road, with an advisory 80 limit through that curve (so an advisory 80 limit, followed by a drop to a limit of 80). I know it seems like splitting hairs, but I don't like freeways with a posted speed so far below the design speed. I totally understand lowering a limit before the end of a freeway, but that far in advance just isn't necessary. Some might even view it as a speed trap.

The one freeway terminus near me that is involved in an extension project, the WA-167 extension from Puyallup to Tacoma, has no limit drop before ending at a half-SPUI. There's no curves or loops involved, granted, but even if there were, the limit wouldn't drop 1.8 miles back. One limit drop I know of off-hand is a drop from 100 to 70 about a mile before the freeway's terminus (WA-512 approaching I-5). It's universally ignored even at just a mile long.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #976 on: January 15, 2018, 08:22:06 AM »

I am going to circle back to my original point.

Prior to the opening of the 407 extension to Taunton Road, a bunch of engineers sat around a table and discussed how best to sign the impending terminus of the highway.  It's pretty safe to assume they were aware of the existence of advisory speed limit signs during this meeting.  Also, this phase of the 407 extension has a radically different approach to speed limit step down than the previous design for the 407 when it ended at Harmony Road.

So my question again is, what specific knowledge about how to sign the terminus of a freeway do you have that the design team didn't have?  To imply that they screwed up infers that you have knowledge that the engineers that sat around that table deciding how best to sign the terminus of the freeway did not have.  Please share this information.

Alps

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #977 on: January 15, 2018, 08:28:07 AM »

I am going to circle back to my original point.

Prior to the opening of the 407 extension to Taunton Road, a bunch of engineers sat around a table and discussed how best to sign the impending terminus of the highway.  It's pretty safe to assume they were aware of the existence of advisory speed limit signs during this meeting.  Also, this phase of the 407 extension has a radically different approach to speed limit step down than the previous design for the 407 when it ended at Harmony Road.

So my question again is, what specific knowledge about how to sign the terminus of a freeway do you have that the design team didn't have?  To imply that they screwed up infers that you have knowledge that the engineers that sat around that table deciding how best to sign the terminus of the freeway did not have.  Please share this information.
In my state, the engineers do not set speed limits, the DOT does. There is no way to know who decides on the speed limits - it may or may not even be a licensed engineer. What specific knowledge do you have about who decided on this speed limit that we don't have? Please share this information.
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AsphaltPlanet

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #978 on: January 15, 2018, 08:39:38 AM »

I've talked about speed limit policy with two traffic engineers who work for the MTO on many occasion.  Next?

J N Winkler

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #979 on: January 15, 2018, 10:35:41 AM »

Looking at the drawings, a limit of 80 km/h is appropriate for that curve onto the future 418 alignment (because of course the 407 consortium would design to the barest of minimums *sigh*).

Is there a place (online?) where we may see these drawings?
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #980 on: January 15, 2018, 11:24:32 AM »

In my state, the engineers do not set speed limits, the DOT does. There is no way to know who decides on the speed limits - it may or may not even be a licensed engineer. What specific knowledge do you have about who decided on this speed limit that we don't have? Please share this information.

Staff in the Regional Traffic section will analyze the highway and make recommendations based on TAC standards. The recommendation and amendment to Ontario Regulation 619: Speed Limits are written up by staff, and is sent up the chain through the Regional Office, signed off by management there. It goes to MTO Legal Services, who make sure the regulation language is properly written. It goes to the Minister's Office, where they review the rationale and if they're good with it, sign off on the amendment. It goes to the Lieutenant-Governor, and is signed into law.

Sorry I don't have a School House Rock tune to go with it.   :-D

My entire point from the beginning was that I thought it was a little ridiculous for the limit to drop 3 kilometres in advance. It was explained to me that this was due to the end of the freeway, plus the curve for the directional-T interchange (see cbeach40's most recent reply on 10 Jan). I thought that was kind of silly, since advisory limits were supposed to be used for curves, and lowering the limit that far in advance might cause a differential in speeds (some continuing at 100, some lowering to 80). Even you stated above that "the ramps that have opened as part of the 407 extension have been consistently some of the fastest freeway to freeway ramps in Ontario".

I may not have stated it directly, but I would prefer to see the limit remain 100 until about a kilometre before Taunton Road, with an advisory 80 limit through that curve (so an advisory 80 limit, followed by a drop to a limit of 80). I know it seems like splitting hairs, but I don't like freeways with a posted speed so far below the design speed. I totally understand lowering a limit before the end of a freeway, but that far in advance just isn't necessary. Some might even view it as a speed trap.

The one freeway terminus near me that is involved in an extension project, the WA-167 extension from Puyallup to Tacoma, has no limit drop before ending at a half-SPUI. There's no curves or loops involved, granted, but even if there were, the limit wouldn't drop 1.8 miles back. One limit drop I know of off-hand is a drop from 100 to 70 about a mile before the freeway's terminus (WA-512 approaching I-5). It's universally ignored even at just a mile long.

Advisory speeds for curves apply for a small sections in isolation surrounded by long sections that meet standard - see 427 at 401 for a good example. From here the design speed of the highway lowers for the curve, but does not return to standard freeway mainline speed beyond it (in fact it gets even lower). Therefore a regulatory speed reduction is the appropriate treatment here.

Is there a place (online?) where we may see these drawings?

The Design Construction Reports include some engineering drawings. These are all well before construction, so there in inevitable be differences between these and the as-built drawings for the highway.
http://www.407eastphase2.ca/community_consultations
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #981 on: January 31, 2018, 08:47:10 AM »

Looks like Brantford is finally getting moving on finishing the BSAR.
http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2018/01/26/ea-planned-for-bsar-missing-link
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"There's a trace o'mint wafting in from the north, So we don't fuck with the 401
It's bigger than us and larger than we'd bargained, I guess it's just not done."
- The Tragically Hip, Titanic Terrarium

cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #982 on: February 09, 2018, 04:17:31 PM »

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"There's a trace o'mint wafting in from the north, So we don't fuck with the 401
It's bigger than us and larger than we'd bargained, I guess it's just not done."
- The Tragically Hip, Titanic Terrarium

cbeach40

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"There's a trace o'mint wafting in from the north, So we don't fuck with the 401
It's bigger than us and larger than we'd bargained, I guess it's just not done."
- The Tragically Hip, Titanic Terrarium

Plutonic Panda

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #984 on: February 16, 2018, 01:36:15 AM »

GTA West corridor study is dead.
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2018/02/ontario-not-moving-forward-with-highway-for-gta-west-corridor.html
Just curious whether this was needed or not? I have no idea about anything involving the GTA.
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cbeach40

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Re: Ontario's Highways
« Reply #985 on: February 16, 2018, 09:43:44 AM »

GTA West corridor study is dead.
https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2018/02/ontario-not-moving-forward-with-highway-for-gta-west-corridor.html
Just curious whether this was needed or not? I have no idea about anything involving the GTA.

Not now, but if in thirty years it is needed, the time to protect the corridor is now.
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"There's a trace o'mint wafting in from the north, So we don't fuck with the 401
It's bigger than us and larger than we'd bargained, I guess it's just not done."
- The Tragically Hip, Titanic Terrarium

 


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