HAWK at a fire station

[NE2]

(Now that I remember this being something I really drove past, and not a dream...)
This isn't approved by the FHWA, is it?
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.378412,-81.51863&spn=0.008609,0.016512&gl=us&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=28.378288,-81.518587&panoid=DfR-DAQWl1lysZr-zVQQdA&cbp=12,358.77,,0,-4.91

[realjd]

LOL Disney. I'm always surprised at what they can get away with on what are technically public roads.

[M3019C LPS20]

It is rather interesting to see that such a configuration is in use for a firehouse.

Also, if you move the little man slightly west, you'll notice that there is a different street view of this set-up. The set-up used ordinary three-section (vertical) traffic signals on the main drag, while a pair of traffic signals faced the driveway. Those are long gone apparently. Take a look...


http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.378299,-81.51878&spn=0.000019,0.009871&gl=us&t=m&layer=c&cbll=28.378274,-81.518701&panoid=K35XZel38lpAuz_ltik4AQ&cbp=12,237.45,,0,-0.12&z=17

[formulanone]

Disney's roads are about as pedestrian-unfriendly as it gets, ironically. The lack of street name signage (except at most signaled intersections) pisses me off.

[NE2]

Disney's roads are about as pedestrian-unfriendly as it gets, ironically.

Yep. Luckily they have frequent free buses, unless you're trying to get to the Wide World of Sports.

The lack of street name signage (except at most signaled intersections) pisses me off.

Most intersections of public non-surface roads have name blades for both streets. It's the entrances to hotels that don't usually have names posted.

[formulanone]

That's the rub, I take our own vehicle because I can't stand waiting for the busses (especially with kids in tow). But I almost always have to consult a map between any two locations within WDW.

Still, does it really matter if the signal serves essentially the same purpose? Meh.

[NE2]

Still, does it really matter if the signal serves essentially the same purpose? Meh.

Does it? At a standard HAWK you stop, look, and proceed if nobody's crossing. Do they want you to do this when a fire engine is preparing to exit?

[formulanone]

Doesn't it turn red, though? I don't really know, to be honest...I guess the fireman pushes the button and runs!

[NE2]

Doesn't it turn red, though? I don't really know, to be honest...I guess the fireman pushes the button and runs!

The sign says "EMERGENCY SIGNAL / STOP ON FLASHING RED". Presumably it's for a fire engine pulling out, and it's conceivable that it could turn red before the engine has left the garage.

[Revive 755]

There are other HAWK like signals out there:

* Main Street in Downers Grove, IL:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Dupage+county,+il&hl=en&ll=41.788065,-88.009168&spn=0.006776,0.016512&sll=40.004509,-81.594773&sspn=0.05595,0.132093&hnear=DuPage,+Illinois&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=41.788148,-88.0092&panoid=x1qzHH4F4TR61jpG0ZZy7A&cbp=12,2.55,,0,1.46

* Roselle Road in Bloomingdale:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=roselle,+il&hl=en&ll=41.950596,-88.080832&spn=0.00169,0.004128&sll=39.13006,-86.989746&sspn=14.421881,33.815918&hnear=Roselle,+DuPage,+Illinois&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.950596,-88.080832&panoid=6ncxlhF5-C7HN6gS24vpJQ&cbp=12,354.86,,0,-2.51

And one more I can't find right now; it's somewhere near Huntley.

EDIT: The 2009 MUTCD does allow HAWK beacons for emergency vehicle access:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/part4g.htm (little over halfway down, Section 4G-04)

[Central Avenue]

What confuses me is that there doesn't seem to be a single signal head or beacon facing the fire station's driveway. How does the driver of the emergency vehicle confirm that the HAWK is operating before pulling out onto the road?

[NE2]

EDIT: The 2009 MUTCD does allow HAWK beacons for emergency vehicle access:
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009r1r2/part4/part4g.htm (little over halfway down, Section 4G-04)

Thanks for that. So you are allowed to proceed after stopping if no fire engines are coming.


I still question the dark nature of the default status. A tiny green face (4 inches or so) should be enough to confirm that power's not out.

[realjd]

A tiny green or a flashing yellow would be sufficient, like the standard R/Y/FY emergency signals here in FL

[1995hoo]

Last week I encountered, for the first time, a HAWK signal that had gone red when a pedestrian exiting a bus had pressed the button to call for the light. (The light is on Van Dorn Street in Alexandria, Virginia, and I'd passed it hundreds of times but had never seen it operating.) People duly stopped when the pedestrian was crossing. Once he was clear, a couple of drivers took off immediately on solid red. I assume that's a violation. A solid red means you have to stop, and since there is nowhere to turn right at that spot, you have to wait, correct?

The HAWK lights then started flashing red. At that point the guy in front of me went. I pulled up to the stop bar, stopped, and then went–I figured since it was flashing red, you treat it like any other flashing red light, and in Virginia a flashing red is normally to be treated as a stop sign. The drivers in the lane to my left did not stop like I did–I assume they saw there was no pedestrian and decided they could just go.

What is the correct thing to do in that situation? Last night I passed through there as the bus was stopped and the yellow came on, but I made it through before it went red so I didn't observe what people did.

(I realize this isn't necessarily germane to the fire-station situation being discussed in this thread, but I didn't think it worthy of starting a new thread.)

[realjd]

^^^
My understanding is that it's a stop light while solid red and a stop sign while flashing red.

[Milepost61]

Yeah, if no peds in the crosswalk on the flashing red you can proceed. Less delay for the drivers since you don't have to wait through the whole cycle.

The one that I've encountered is solid red while the walk light is white, and changes to flashing red for the same amount of time the crosswalk is in flashing don't walk mode.

[roadfro]

Yeah, if no peds in the crosswalk on the flashing red you can proceed. Less delay for the drivers since you don't have to wait through the whole cycle.

You know, I thought there was a mention in the MUTCD about drivers making a complete stop during flashing red at HAWK or emergency vehicle beacons... the MUTCD appears to be silent on this in those chapters. Without making that distinction, I assume the typical description of signal colors and features applies and a complete stop is required before proceeding on the flashing red phase of these signals.

Thinking about it now, it actually doesn't make sense for the emergency beacon to not have an solid red phase...

[Alps]

I went down to the HAWK on NJ 27 near the Garden State Parkway to observe operations, with several test presses. Depending on who was in front, one of four things happened:

a) Everyone just kept going regardless of the signal
b) People stopped on the solid red and proceeded after I had crossed
c) People stopped on the solid red and waited for the flashing red
d) People stopped on the solid red AND the flashing red and did not proceed until the light went dark

Clearly, more driver education is needed on this issue. In general, though, RED means STOP.

[jakeroot]

Sorry to revive such an old thread. Moving this from a thread where it wasn't relevant.

Haven't seen an emergency HAWK install until just a few days ago. This is on Joint-Base Lewis McChord, near Tacoma, WA. Not sure who's responsible for military base roads.

(No street view since, military base).

[SignBridge]

I've seen the HAWK signal that Alps mentioned earlier on NJ 27 in Iselin in front of the Metropark Train Station. I wanted to check it out so I parked nearby, walked over, activated the signal and crossed the street safely while traffic stopped. The signal seemed to work as intended with traffic.

But I still think the HAWK concept is a bad idea that will cause accidents because drivers (including myself) may be confused as to how to comply with it. Yes, signs are displayed with the instruction but they look so small, you can hardly read them while approaching. And what's worse is these identical-looking signals work differently and have different rules depending whether they're used at a crosswalk or a fire station. You can assume as some do above that flashing-red is like a stop sign and steady-red means stop-and-stay-stopped. But then that's not true in all cases like railroad crossing signals. So who knows?

Another problem is that conceptually the HAWK is in conflict with standard traffic signal philosophy that signals are not supposed to ever be completely dark. Some indication is always supposed to be on. And I think the Manual says that somewhere.

So what the heck was the FHWA thinking when they approved this idea? The HAWK strikes me as a cheap-crap version of a real pedestrian-crossing or fire-station activated traffic signal.

[jakeroot]

Another problem is that conceptually the HAWK is in conflict with standard traffic signal philosophy that signals are not supposed to ever be completely dark. Some indication is always supposed to be on. And I think the Manual says that somewhere.

In most states, ramp meter signals go dark when not in use. Not sure if there's an exemption for those specifically, but at least there's some precedent to the HAWK, in some respect.

[SignBridge]

Good point jakeroot. We have dark ramp-metering signals here on Long Island too. I'd forgotten about those.

[jakeroot]

Good point jakeroot. We have dark ramp-metering signals here on Long Island too. I'd forgotten about those.

Point aside, I agree that dark signals should, in principle, mean "stop and proceed with caution".

Assuming the HAWK cannot be modified to include an always-on signal (flashing yellow perhaps?), both HAWKs and ramp meters should have regulatory signs like this:

[kphoger]

If the signal is dark, then I ain't stopping no matter what!
Kids in the street be damned!

[jakeroot]

https://i.imgur.com/H2zC3Pk.png

If the signal is dark, then I ain't stopping no matter what!
Kids in the street be damned!

Signs cannot override the right-of-way of a pedestrian crossing in a marked/unmarked crosswalk, at least in WA.