Another Shooting At Virginia Tech

[74/171FAN]

Hey for those that don't know my name is Mark.  I go to Virginia Tech and today a cop and at least one other person has been killed on campus.  Exams for tomorrow have already been postponed.  I'd give a link here but so much has gone on that it might be updated before I got a chance to post it.  There is supposed to be a news conference on campus from what I understand around 4:30.  Please pray for our campus as we again go through a horrible tragedy just like on April 16th.  Hokie Nation will prevail through all this but we still need your support.

[realjd]

It sounds like the shooter killed himself. Thankfully no one else was injured or killed. I'll bet that was a frightening few hours!

To push this thread in a more controversial direction, is there a push by students on campus to allow concealed carry? I know some (conservative) places have students lobbying for that right,and I do understand the logic behind it. 

[Beltway]

It sounds like the shooter killed himself. Thankfully no one else was injured or killed. I'll bet that was a frightening few hours!

Gunman Fatally Shoots Cop, Reportedly Kills Self On Virginia Tech Campus
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2011/12/08/shots-reported-fired-on-virginia-tech-campus/

To push this thread in a more controversial direction, is there a push by students on campus to allow concealed carry? I know some (conservative) places have students lobbying for that right,and I do understand the logic behind it. 

If someone has a CHL they are at least 21 years old and have had a successful police background check.  The rate of misuse among CHL is infinitessimal.

They should be able to carry concealed on a college campus.

College campi should not be "free fire zones" for mass murderers.

[Takumi]

Sad day. At the time of the first shooting I knew several former classmates that went to Tech at the time. None of them were hurt, fortunately, and I'm glad to hear you're ok as well.

[74/171FAN]

It sounds like the shooter killed himself. Thankfully no one else was injured or killed. I'll bet that was a frightening few hours!

Gunman Fatally Shoots Cop, Reportedly Kills Self On Virginia Tech Campus
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2011/12/08/shots-reported-fired-on-virginia-tech-campus/

To push this thread in a more controversial direction, is there a push by students on campus to allow concealed carry? I know some (conservative) places have students lobbying for that right,and I do understand the logic behind it. 

If someone has a CHL they are at least 21 years old and have had a successful police background check.  The rate of misuse among CHL is infinitessimal.

They should be able to carry concealed on a college campus.

College campi should not be "free fire zones" for mass murderers.

Yes I have heard about the "guns on campus" thing and my English professor last semester said he would resign if it ever went through so we'll see.  Also my roommate actually parked in the area of the first shooting right before it happened. It's a scary thing to think about.  Also our exams tomorrow have been moved to Saturday but I'm not sure what else they could have done without postponing commencement ceremonies.

[triplemultiplex]

Why is it after every spree killing and campus shooting the debate immediately turns to "This wouldn't have happened if there were more guns" vs. "This wouldn't have happened if there were fewer guns"?

Doesn't that miss the point of addressing the root causes of violence?


Personally, I'm troubled by the idea of folks totin' guns around in public.  The fact remains that no matter how well trained and experienced a person is, they are still human and eminently capable of error.  And a firearm is quite unforgiving of error.  I don't want to be walking in the mall and take a bullet in the ass because some guy packing heat sneezed or whatever.  That's a ridiculous example, of course, but shit like that happens.  Everyone has probably seen the video clip of the police officer accidentally shooting himself while giving a gun safety lecture.

More so, it speaks our inability to assess the actual probability of risk.  The chance of your average person of being in a situation where they could actually used a concealed firearm to defend themselves or others is so infinitely small that it's not even worth considering.  Despite the attention these incidents get from the media, they are statistically rare to the point of insignificance.  One might as well wear a special hat that helps them survive lightning strikes.  The odds of an accident increase with the number of entities in that category, whether it's cars, joggers or people with guns.  I see it every year in this state during deer season.  Every year there's a handful of gun accidents reported in the media.  Statistically speaking, this is an astronomical increase.  The only thing that has changed is more people walking around with guns.

So when balancing the significantly increased risk in being involved in a gun accident versus the marginal advantage one would have in an indeterminate incident unlikely to be experienced in a thousand lifetimes, I choose to remain unarmed.  I'm not going to make any conclusions about public policy, but I bet that 90+% of the population would be safer if they made the same choice.  Laws one way or the other are unnecessary because statistics tell us that for the typical individual, carrying a gun around is also unnecessary.

[Beltway]

Why is it after every spree killing and campus shooting the debate immediately turns to "This wouldn't have happened if there were more guns" vs. "This wouldn't have happened if there were fewer guns"?

Doesn't that miss the point of addressing the root causes of violence?

Personally, I'm troubled by the idea of folks totin' guns around in public.  The fact remains that no matter how well trained and experienced a person is, they are still human and eminently capable of error.  And a firearm is quite unforgiving of error.  I don't want to be walking in the mall and take a bullet in the ass because some guy packing heat sneezed or whatever.  That's a ridiculous example, of course, but shit like that happens.  Everyone has probably seen the video clip of the police officer accidentally shooting himself while giving a gun safety lecture.

Police officers are notoriously inaccurate in gun fights, often 3/4 or more of the slugs miss the target.

You can't make the case that licensed citizens are less qualified.

More so, it speaks our inability to assess the actual probability of risk.  The chance of your average person of being in a situation where they could actually used a concealed firearm to defend themselves or others is so infinitely small that it's not even worth considering.

Well, baloney.  A number of studies have shown as many as 1 million defensive gun uses per year in the U.S., the vast majority of which do not result in any shots fired.

Many criminals will be more cautious in places where they know that citizens can carry concealed, they don't know who might have a weapon.

VPI obviously hasn't learned that lesson ...

[realjd]

Triplemultiplex,
Have you ever fired a handgun? I'm just curious. In my experience, people who have handled firearms in the past are more comfortable with them (naturally).

From a public policy perspective, I support concealed carry laws. I'm of the opinion that only law abiding citizens follow gun laws, and it makes no sense to allow criminals to be the only ones armed.

There are a significant number of cases where armed civilians save the day, they just tend to be unreported by the media. Some blogs like tis one (http://thearmedcitizen.com/) make a point to report them.

Concealed means concealed. A civilian sneezing won't set off a gun, and a holstered gun won't accidentally go off. The cop who shot himself in the YouTube video you cite was bolstering the weapon, remember? Armed civilians only only draw their guns when absolutely necessary. Drawing or handling a weapon publically not for self defense is usually punished severely.

I agree it's unlikely to need a gun, and even though I have a CWP I very rarely exercise the right to arm myself because I agree it's statistically unlikely to need a gun, but I don't ink I should make that choice for other people.

I like a good debate

[J N Winkler]

Have you ever fired a handgun? I'm just curious. In my experience, people who have handled firearms in the past are more comfortable with them (naturally).

I have cleaned pistols but never actually fired one.  I consider myself an agnostic on the whole concealed-carry issue (see below).

From a public policy perspective, I support concealed carry laws. I'm of the opinion that only law abiding citizens follow gun laws, and it makes no sense to allow criminals to be the only ones armed.

There are a significant number of cases where armed civilians save the day, they just tend to be unreported by the media. Some blogs like this one (http://thearmedcitizen.com/) make a point to report them.

It is often argued that if civilians are allowed to carry arms into venue X, then the miscreants will be deterred from whatever ill deeds they may be contemplating by the possibility of return fire.  I find this argument unconvincing.  People planning a crime will typically be aware of the firearms laws in the jurisdiction where they propose to carry it out, and they will plan accordingly, by bringing more firepower (e.g. semiautomatics illegally modified to fire full-auto), by shooting from cover, by identifying and taking out armed civilians, by wearing Kevlar vests, by shooting expanding ammunition, etc.  These considerations also come into play in the typical school-shooting scenario and can easily prompt the shooter to seek much deadlier weaponry to defend the body count before he himself is taken down.

I tend to feel that a defensive-offensive seesaw (with uncertain impact on gunshot fatalities and injuries) is a more likely outcome than deterrence.

[triplemultiplex]

Triplemultiplex,
Have you ever fired a handgun? I'm just curious. In my experience, people who have handled firearms in the past are more comfortable with them (naturally).

Nope.
Have no plans to, either. And I'll certainly never own one.

"Hand guns are made for killin'
they ain't no good for nothin' else.
And if you like to drink your whiskey
you might even a-shoot yourself."

If anyone feels like they need to be packing at all times in order to be safe from the 'bad guys', well then that's their neurosis.  I'll continue spending my days not living in constant fear of low probability events.

[realjd]

Only good for killing? T-Rex would beg to differ:
http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=2084

They're useful for entertainment purposes also. Going to the shooting range is fun. If you ever get the chance, I'd suggest taking it just for the experience. You won't hurt anything but paper, and I promise you'll enjoy yourself.

I see carrying a gun like keeping a spare tire in your trunk. It's unlikely that you'll need it, but you'll be glad you have it I'd you do. Like I said, I very rarely carry, but like having option.

Plus, concealed carry laws do lower occurances of violent crime. At least they did here in Florida.