New Jersey Turnpike

[Beltway]

It has a 25-foot median that is paved and has a concrete median barrier and has 12-foot paved right shoulders.  https://tinyurl.com/tq498rn  It is not a parkway design, but a full Interstate design, and the narrow median is an urban design.
Same cross-section and looks basically the same as the 6-lane sections, just 6 lanes instead of 4.

Yes but the narrow median means the tree coverage is pretty good, like the merit.

I see that there is a lot of "mature" tree growth within 20 to 25 feet of the roadway.

Trees that have been growing since ... 1951 and are 70 to 100 feet tall today.

I will grant that a widening project would result in clear zones at least 30 feet wide, with a more "open" look as far as trees along side.  Proper aesthetic treatments can provide an attractive roadside.

[vdeane]

I wonder if he has an association in his head where 6 or more lanes automatically means urban.  It's easy to start thinking that way if you live in a state with few or no rural freeways with more than two lanes each direction excluding climbing lanes.

I may have steady volume, and I may not be able to hit cruise control, I may not be able to go much faster than the low 70s, but that is hardly a pressing issue worth complaining about, that is still green, free flowing traffic.

IMO Google Maps has the threshold a bit low for when to stop showing traffic as green.  There have been many times where I've thought "they show this as green!? Should be yellow!".  Same for the dividing line between yellow and red.

[sprjus4]

I wonder if he has an association in his head where 6 or more lanes automatically means urban.  It's easy to start thinking that way if you live in a state with few or no rural freeways with more than two lanes each direction excluding climbing lanes.

Well, I-95 between Fredericksburg - Ashland and Delaware - Baltimore is 6 lanes, and certainly aren't urban segments.

IMO Google Maps has the threshold a bit low for when to stop showing traffic as green.  There have been many times where I've thought "they show this as green!? Should be yellow!".  Same for the dividing line between yellow and red.

Agreed. I've been in traffic that moves from 70 mph down to almost 0 mph, then picks back up, etc. (stop-go conditions, no incident, just heavy traffic on an overcapacity road), and Google shows all green.

[jeffandnicole]

Also, the Turnpike was built pre-interstate, so while it was one of the leaders in the nation with standards that exist today, median width wasn't one of them.

Quick history: Most of the Turnpike was originally built with a small paved left shoulder and a 20' or so grassy area in the middle with a guardrail. A few decades ago, they modernized this with an ultra-thick Jersey barrier and full width left shoulders.  So it still meets interstate guidelines for a median; it's just not what one typically finds in a rural area.

BTW, the NJ-PA Turnpike extension's median to this day was what nearly the entire Turnpike was built with.  https://goo.gl/maps/zSzT4qZD8gQ2hSEi7  It's unknown to me why the extension's median was never upgraded with the treatment the mainline received.

It has a 25-foot median that is paved and has a concrete median barrier and has 12-foot paved right shoulders.  https://tinyurl.com/tq498rn  It is not a parkway design, but a full Interstate design, and the narrow median is an urban design.
Same cross-section and looks basically the same as the 6-lane sections, just 6 lanes instead of 4.

Yes but the narrow median means the tree coverage is pretty good, like the merit.

I see that there is a lot of "mature" tree growth within 20 to 25 feet of the roadway.

Trees that have been growing since ... 1951 and are 70 to 100 feet tall today.

I will grant that a widening project would result in clear zones at least 30 feet wide, with a more "open" look as far as trees along side.  Proper aesthetic treatments can provide an attractive roadside.

The Turnpike has occasionally cut back some of these trees to increase the safety zone off the highway.  They kinda randomly do it though, and some areas the trees remain much closer to the highway than other areas.

[Beltway]

Quick history: Most of the Turnpike was originally built with a small paved left shoulder and a 20' or so grassy area in the middle with a guardrail. A few decades ago, they modernized this with an ultra-thick Jersey barrier and full width left shoulders.  So it still meets interstate guidelines for a median; it's just not what one typically finds in a rural area.
BTW, the NJ-PA Turnpike extension's median to this day was what nearly the entire Turnpike was built with.  https://goo.gl/maps/zSzT4qZD8gQ2hSEi7  It's unknown to me why the extension's median was never upgraded with the treatment the mainline received.

Yes, that it what the mainline turnpike looked like in the 1970s when I lived in the area, with 4-foot paved left shoulders and a somewhat raised grass median, with a double-faced W-beam guardrail for the median barrier.

The newly-built dual-divided section north of New Brunswick had a paved median and paved outer separators, and had a double-faced W-beam guardrail for the median barrier.

That PA Extension may have been built with 6 lanes, as that is what it had when I first drove it in 1972.  The Delaware River Bridge had 6 lanes with a painted separator.

[Roadsguy]

Quick history: Most of the Turnpike was originally built with a small paved left shoulder and a 20' or so grassy area in the middle with a guardrail. A few decades ago, they modernized this with an ultra-thick Jersey barrier and full width left shoulders.  So it still meets interstate guidelines for a median; it's just not what one typically finds in a rural area.
BTW, the NJ-PA Turnpike extension's median to this day was what nearly the entire Turnpike was built with.  https://goo.gl/maps/zSzT4qZD8gQ2hSEi7  It's unknown to me why the extension's median was never upgraded with the treatment the mainline received.

Yes, that it what the mainline turnpike looked like in the 1970s when I lived in the area, with 4-foot paved left shoulders and a somewhat raised grass median, with a double-faced W-beam guardrail for the median barrier.

The newly-built dual-divided section north of New Brunswick had a paved median and paved outer separators, and had a double-faced W-beam guardrail for the median barrier.

That PA Extension may have been built with 6 lanes, as that is what it had when I first drove it in 1972.  The Delaware River Bridge had 6 lanes with a painted separator.

Was the mainline's total median width no wider than the total median width today? The Pennsylvania Extension's median seems to be slightly wider overall (yellow line to yellow line) than the mainline's.

[sprjus4]

Was the mainline's total median width no wider than the total median width today? The Pennsylvania Extension's median seems to be slightly wider overall (yellow line to yellow line) than the mainline's.

The mainline median is 26 ft wide from line to line. It was originally a grassy median with guardrail, though was filled to provide left paved shoulders and a jersey barrier.

The extension's median has a 38 ft wide median from line to line, so it was probably not warranted to fill the entire thing, a median of that width can suffice with a grassy median and guardrail. With that much room, a fill could allow an additional lane and 6 foot left paved shoulder in each direction to be added.

[Beltway]

The extension's median has a 38 ft wide median from line to line, so it was probably not warranted to fill the entire thing, a median of that width can suffice with a grassy median and guardrail. With that much room, a fill could allow an additional lane and 6 foot left paved shoulder in each direction to be added.

The paved left shoulders warrant being widened to 10 or 12 feet, given the 3-lane roadways.  But the demand for such a project would not have been very high.

The 38 foot median may be too wide to pave the whole median, but too narrow for a proper grass median, but some other places in such case they did pave the whole thing.

VA I-64 near Skipwith Road in Henrico County -- https://tinyurl.com/udv5h4q
Median treatment built in 1980s inside-widening project.

[Roadrunner75]

I remember that narrow median came up in the 90s when a state trooper was killed running radar while parked in one of the breaks in the median barrier in South Jersey.  If I recall correctly a driver went out of control after seeing the trooper, drove into the median barrier and then hit the trooper's car which was straddling the barrier in the break. I believe that resulted in a change in policy prohibiting troopers from running radar in the median.

[sprjus4]

The 38 foot median may be too wide to pave the whole median, but too narrow for a proper grass median, but some other places in such case they did pave the whole thing.

A 38 foot grassy median with a guardrail or cable guardrail is adequate is most scenarios, though as you mention sometimes agencies opt to fill it in.

Anything about 26 foot or less should ideally be paved with jersey barrier, though in some instances that still hasn't happened, see below.

Median on I-95 near Emporia that is 28 foot grassy with guardrail.
Median on I-64 near Clifton Forge that is 20 foot grassy with two sets of cable guardrail. This example only had the cable guardrail installed recently, it used to be only 20 foot, 65 mph, with at least one 60 mph curve, no median protection. I wonder how many median crossover crashes occurred here, seems inviting. It now is posted at 70 mph and with at least two sets of cable guardrail.

[Beltway]

The 38 foot median may be too wide to pave the whole median, but too narrow for a proper grass median, but some other places in such case they did pave the whole thing.

Anything about 26 foot or less should ideally be paved with jersey barrier, though in some instances that still hasn't happened, see below.
Median on I-95 near Emporia that is 28 foot grassy with guardrail.

That does have 5-foot paved left shoulders, and a W-beam guardrail median barrier.

Median on I-64 near Clifton Forge that is 20 foot grassy with two sets of cable guardrail.[/url] This example only had the cable guardrail installed recently, it used to be only 20 foot, 65 mph, no median protection. It now is posted at 70 mph and with at least two sets of cable guardrail.

That was a recent project a few years ago, and a concrete median barrier was considered, but that high-tension cable guardrail is a recent design and is strong enough to deflect a large truck from crossing the median, and much less cost to install.

D. HIGH-TENSION CABLE SYSTEMS
VDOT has installed approximately 50 miles of high-tension cable barrier on roadways in the Commonwealth.  All high-tension cable guardrail systems are proprietary.  All hightension cable guardrail systems must meet the MASH TL-3 or TL-4 crash test standards. The installed system must meet the VDOT's specifications for the project's application. Please contact Location & Design Division's Standards/Special Design section for assistance on the use of HTC Barrier.
http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/LocDes/GRIT_Manual.pdf

[sprjus4]

That does have 5-foot paved left shoulders, and a W-beam guardrail median barrier.

The median size included the shoulders, from yellow line to yellow line. Approximately 18 foot of grass, 10 foot of paved shoulder. 26 foot total.

That was a recent project a few years ago, and a concrete median barrier was considered, but that high-tension cable guardrail is a recent design and is strong enough to deflect a large truck from crossing the median, and much less cost to install.

D. HIGH-TENSION CABLE SYSTEMS
VDOT has installed approximately 50 miles of high-tension cable barrier on roadways in the Commonwealth.  All high-tension cable guardrail systems are proprietary.  All hightension cable guardrail systems must meet the MASH TL-3 or TL-4 crash test standards. The installed system must meet the VDOT's specifications for the project's application. Please contact Location & Design Division's Standards/Special Design section for assistance on the use of HTC Barrier.
http://www.virginiadot.org/business/resources/LocDes/GRIT_Manual.pdf

Certain highway segments in Hampton Roads have gotten such cable guardrail treatment as well in the past 5 years.

This includes...
- A 1.4 mile segment of I-264 in Virginia Beach between the First Colonial Rd overpass and the Birdneck Rd overpass where that segment is 6 lanes and is divided by a 40 foot grassy median.
- A 7.5 mile segmnet of I-664 in Chesapeake, Portsmouth, and Suffolk between the Jolliff Rd overpass and the MMMBT where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 52 - 64 foot grassy median.
- A 3.5 mile segment of VA-168 in Chesapeake between the VA-165 overpass and the Hillcrest Pkwy overpass where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 30 - 42 foot grassy median. This project was completed locally by the city who maintains the roadway back in September 2019, not currently visible in Google imagery.

Other notable areas do lack treatment, such as a 2.3 mile segment of I-464 between the Freeman Rd overpass and north of the VA-337 overpass where that segment is 6 lanes and is divided by a 40 foot grassy median; a 4 mile segment of I-64 between the Patrol Rd overpass and the HRBT where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 42 foot grassy median, granted this will be replaced fairly soon by a jersey barrier apart of the upcoming HRBT expansion; a 6 mile segment of VA-168 between the Hillcrest Pkwy overpass and Gallbush Rd where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by only a 30 foot grassy median, another project that would be completed by the city of Chesapeake; a 3 mile segment of US-17 between Great Bridge Blvd overpass and Grassfield Pkwy where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 46 foot grassy median, another project that would be completed by the city of Chesapeake. I recall a recent story where an innocent driver was killed in the southbound lanes approaching the Veterans Bridge by another driver in the northbound lanes crossing over the median, that had the city properly installed cable guardrail during the construction of that project only 3 years ago, would've been prevented.

Outside Hampton Roads, there are a decent amount of freeway segments that would benefit from cable guardrail installation throughout Virginia for safety purposes. In North Carolina, cable guardrail is included on a significant amount of freeway segments, ranging from 30 foot to 80 foot medians, since before 2007 on many. The likelihood of a median crossover crash would be low to none on segments like this. I don't know the total cost of the program and when specifically they were installed, but is certainly a worthwhile investment for safety purposes, and is now a default feature on any new segment, regardless of median width.

[Beltway]

where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 46 foot grassy median, another project that would be completed by the city of Chesapeake.  I recall a recent story where an innocent driver was killed in the southbound lanes approaching the Veterans Bridge by another driver in the northbound lanes crossing over the median, that had the city properly installed cable guardrail during the construction of that project only 3 years ago, would've been prevented.

The "if it saves one life" fallacy.

I really question the benefits of installing a median barrier on a median wider than 40 feet.  Clear zones of 30 feet are recognized to be wide enough that bridge piers that far back don't need to be protected by guardrail, because of the extremely low probability of an errant vehicle hitting them, and the fact the guardrail injects another fixed object into the equation, typically at least a 200 foot run of guardrail to protect the piers.

That 40 foot median has 40 feet of recovery room, and that is halved or less if a barrier is installed, so a vehicle that would have recovered without impact in 40 feet would have hit the guardrail, and while not a headon collision that depending on kinematics could still be a violent crash and harmful to the occupants.  The very rare vehicle that crosses a 40-foot (or wider) median won't automatically hit any other vehicle.

A 30-foot median is another matter, because in order to make the slopes steep enough to provide drainage to the ditchline, that would be about 4:1 slopes which are steep enough to turn a vehicle over if it hits it at certain angles, so assuming 30 feet of safe recovery room cannot be assumed.

[jeffandnicole]

where that segment is 4 lanes and is divided by a 46 foot grassy median, another project that would be completed by the city of Chesapeake.  I recall a recent story where an innocent driver was killed in the southbound lanes approaching the Veterans Bridge by another driver in the northbound lanes crossing over the median, that had the city properly installed cable guardrail during the construction of that project only 3 years ago, would've been prevented.

The "if it saves one life" fallacy.

I really question the benefits of installing a median barrier on a median wider than 40 feet.  Clear zones of 30 feet are recognized to be wide enough that bridge piers that far back don't need to be protected by guardrail, because of the extremely low probability of an errant vehicle hitting them, and the fact the guardrail injects another fixed object into the equation, typically at least a 200 foot run of guardrail to protect the piers.

That 40 foot median has 40 feet of recovery room, and that is halved or less if a barrier is installed, so a vehicle that would have recovered without impact in 40 feet would have hit the guardrail, and while not a headon collision that depending on kinematics could still be a violent crash and harmful to the occupants.  The very rare vehicle that crosses a 40-foot (or wider) median won't automatically hit any other vehicle.

A 30-foot median is another matter, because in order to make the slopes steep enough to provide drainage to the ditchline, that would be about 4:1 slopes which are steep enough to turn a vehicle over if it hits it at certain angles, so assuming 30 feet of safe recovery room cannot be assumed.

Admittedly straying off topic here.

NJDOT, after a few cross-over median crashes that resulted in deaths, installed guardrails across nearly all medians where it's possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Usually they offset the guardrail to one side, which still allows one direction to have most of the median for a recovery zone, and the other side to have enough room for at least 12' of paved/unpaved shoulder.  Overall it seems to work out well.

DE is installed guardrail along I-95 north of Wilmington, but I question their location.  Often times 95 South is raised a bit higher than 95 North.  They are installed the guardrail down near the bottom of the slope.  To me, it would appear a car leaving the roadway on 95 South could easily fly over or land on top of the guardrail, conditions which the rail isn't designed for.

[Beltway]

NJDOT, after a few cross-over median crashes that resulted in deaths, installed guardrails across nearly all medians where it's possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Usually they offset the guardrail to one side, which still allows one direction to have most of the median for a recovery zone, and the other side to have enough room for at least 12' of paved/unpaved shoulder.  Overall it seems to work out well.

A graded median 150 feet wide is possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Where do we draw the line?

[sprjus4]

NJDOT, after a few cross-over median crashes that resulted in deaths, installed guardrails across nearly all medians where it's possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Usually they offset the guardrail to one side, which still allows one direction to have most of the median for a recovery zone, and the other side to have enough room for at least 12' of paved/unpaved shoulder.  Overall it seems to work out well.

A graded median 150 feet wide is possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Where do we draw the line?

As any example, for NCDOT, anything less than around 85 foot wide will usually have cable guardrail installed. On new freeway segments with median widths varying from 46 to 70 foot, they are standard installs. Unlike New Jersey, they are usually installed closer to the center rather than offset on one side, though is just as effective.

A 46 foot median warrants a cable guardrail. Even VDOT recently installed cable guardrail along I-664 which is divided by a 52 to 64 foot median.

Eliminating any potential for a median crossover crash should be the goal for any freeway, regardless of median size. Just because it's over a certain width (40 ft as you say) and the potential is lower, it still does exist. The recent segment installed on VA-168, which has an offset design (shifting from one side to the other) every few thousand feet, with a median of 40 to 42 foot, I recall a couple of different head-on crashes as a result of median crossover over the past decade or so, which now would be preventable. Why -not- install a guardrail, just to fully eliminate that risk, on all projects?

[J3ebrules]

Totally off-topic, but I just travelled the Turnpike today and saw they shut down the outer roadway (Cars/Trucks/Buses) northbound for emergency vehicles only. Wonder if that's been that way for a while since the pandemic started.

Not that it made a huge difference - even at 9AM, it was pretty smooth sailing and light traffic.

[sprjus4]

What is the point of a 35 mph speed limit?

[bluecountry]

I wonder if he has an association in his head where 6 or more lanes automatically means urban.  It's easy to start thinking that way if you live in a state with few or no rural freeways with more than two lanes each direction excluding climbing lanes.

I may have steady volume, and I may not be able to hit cruise control, I may not be able to go much faster than the low 70s, but that is hardly a pressing issue worth complaining about, that is still green, free flowing traffic.

IMO Google Maps has the threshold a bit low for when to stop showing traffic as green.  There have been many times where I've thought "they show this as green!? Should be yellow!".  Same for the dividing line between yellow and red.

Look I just haven't experience traffic slowdowns on the southern end.
Sure, I wish I could cruise at 80 mph, but really that is a luxury and hardly worth using the limited resources.
I just do not see the priority need to do this, and I am veteran NJTP full 118 mile driver.

The only area I have issues with now is the western spur north of exit 16 where it goes to 4 lanes.
Before 2014, I always got fucked it seemed in central Jersey between 6 and 9, often having to take (ugh) route 1.
I just do not see the urgent need to make it 6 lanes.

I think a far far higher priority is fixing the Newark Bay extension and Western Spur to be 6 lanes, improving exit ramps and toll entrances throughout to minimize weaving, and some tapering between exit 6 and exit 3.

[sprjus4]

Look I just haven't experience traffic slowdowns on the southern end.
Sure, I wish I could cruise at 80 mph, but really that is a luxury and hardly worth using the limited resources.

On some weekends, I wish I could cruise consistently at least at 60 mph, but it often times can be slower. This is on Exit 1 - 3.

I just do not see the priority need to do this, and I am veteran NJTP full 118 mile driver.

While I've not driven it on a daily basis, I've driven it quite a few times from the end to end. I've experienced these issues first hand. It must be enough of an issue if it's a project set to begin in the next 10 years.

You've failed to consider this once again, how about 20 or 25 years from now? How will the traffic be then?

[Beltway]

A graded median 150 feet wide is possible for a vehicle to cross over.  Where do we draw the line?

As any example, for NCDOT, anything less than around 85 foot wide will usually have cable guardrail installed.

I don't agree with that, for the aforementioned reasons.

Eliminating any potential for a median crossover crash should be the goal for any freeway, regardless of median size.

Don't agree.  At a point much beyond 30 feet of recovery room, the probability of a crash becomes infinitesimal, and like I said the guardrail injects another fixed object that a vehicle can hit and is much closer to the roadway.

Even with the safety of a freeway, there are still risks.  Should they build automatic crash barriers on every ramp to stop a possible wrong-way vehicle?  Wrong way driving is far more catastrophic.

[J3ebrules]

What is the point of a 35 mph speed limit?

No clue; probably just a default. It's 65 the rest of the highway, and the emergency vehicles I have seen go by - in both directions on that one northbound roadway - are certainly not going 35.

[odditude]

Look I just haven't experience traffic slowdowns on the southern end.

...and everyone else who's commenting on this has. we're not all lying.

[Beltway]

Look I just haven't experience traffic slowdowns on the southern end.

...and everyone else who's commenting on this has. we're not all lying.

I haven't used it enough to have personal experience, but the data certainly supports the likelihood of random rolling backups at peak periods, where daily volume may exceed 70,000.

https://www.njta.com/media/4280/os-2019a.pdf
PDF Page 231
2017 Traffic Volumes
Exits 1 to 2 - 48,800 - 12.4% truck
Exits 2 to 3 - 53,400 - 12.4% truck
Exits 3 to 4 - 63,300 - 12.3% truck

[Mr. Matté]

Totally off-topic, but I just travelled the Turnpike today and saw they shut down the outer roadway (Cars/Trucks/Buses) northbound for emergency vehicles only. Wonder if that's been that way for a while since the pandemic started.

Not that it made a huge difference - even at 9AM, it was pretty smooth sailing and light traffic.

To interrupt yet another Beltway/sprjus4 fight, I passed over the Turnpike on a lunchtime bike ride (south of exit 8) but it looks like the northbound outer roadway is open to general traffic again. Still a lot of trucks in the car lanes but a slight trickle of passenger vehicles and trucks in the outer lanes too.