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New article on Cuomo/TZB bolts

Started by Jim, March 07, 2021, 05:06:33 PM

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Jim

I know we had a topic on this months ago that got locked, but there's a new article today about the Cuomo/new TZB bolts issue in the Albany Times Union:

https://www.timesunion.com/news/article/mario-cuomo-bridge-structural-problems-covered-up-15594755.php

So for the many of you here who know more about this than the average TU reader, I ask, is there anything to see here?
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Rothman

Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Looks like investigation results are not public, and there is a strong push to keep that from publication.
And the fact that at least some bolts are clearly out of spec - they mention hot dip galvanized, which is not permitted for A490. Moreover, images are of type 3 weathering steel bolts - which are clearly coated with something..
Counterfeit hardware? What can go wrong with that?

Rothman



Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:23:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Looks like investigation results are not public, and there is a strong push to keep that from publication.
And the fact that at least some bolts are clearly out of spec - they mention hot dip galvanized, which is not permitted for A490. Moreover, images are of type 3 weathering steel bolts - which are clearly coated with something..
Counterfeit hardware? What can go wrong with that?

The timing of this becoming an issue right now is not a coincidence.  Not saying bad bolts aren't a significant issue, but the timing of the article speaks volumes.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:26:34 PM


Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:23:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Looks like investigation results are not public, and there is a strong push to keep that from publication.
And the fact that at least some bolts are clearly out of spec - they mention hot dip galvanized, which is not permitted for A490. Moreover, images are of type 3 weathering steel bolts - which are clearly coated with something..
Counterfeit hardware? What can go wrong with that?

The timing of this becoming an issue right now is not a coincidence.  Not saying bad bolts aren't a significant issue, but the timing of the article speaks volumes.
This may certainly be true - although TU may be too local to be a real force in deciding Cuomo's fate.  But it is not as if Cuomo couldn't sweep the underlying issue under the carpet.

Rothman



Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:26:34 PM


Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:23:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Looks like investigation results are not public, and there is a strong push to keep that from publication.
And the fact that at least some bolts are clearly out of spec - they mention hot dip galvanized, which is not permitted for A490. Moreover, images are of type 3 weathering steel bolts - which are clearly coated with something..
Counterfeit hardware? What can go wrong with that?

The timing of this becoming an issue right now is not a coincidence.  Not saying bad bolts aren't a significant issue, but the timing of the article speaks volumes.
This may certainly be true - although TU may be too local to be a real force in deciding Cuomo's fate.  But it is not as if Cuomo couldn't sweep the underlying issue under the carpet.

Too local?  TU is the only sizeable newspaper that covers NY State Government.  NY Times only catches the big stuff and NY Post just catches whatever they think embarrasses the Dems and they can make a tabloid headline out of.

Under regular circumstances, Cuomo would ride this bolt thing out unscathed and let the Thruway -- who was really in charge of the project -- take the heat.  But...blood in the water...
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

kalvado

SOmeone more knowledgeable than me may correct...
Here is the image of a broken bolt from the article:
https://s.hdnux.com/photos/01/17/00/35/20711281/3/2400x0.jpg
A490 is underlined, indicating type 3 bolt:
https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/img/2017/03/mechanical-properties-a325-a490.png
Logo on the head seems to belong to Newport Fasteners:
https://www.newportfasteners.com/bolts.html?grade=199&p=4
Problem is I don't see any A490 type 3 in their catalog....

vdeane

Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 06:16:57 PM


Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:26:34 PM


Quote from: kalvado on March 07, 2021, 05:23:30 PM
Quote from: Rothman on March 07, 2021, 05:14:07 PM
Because of the investigation that reviewed the evidence and concluded the issue could be resolved, this smells more like sharks smelling blood in the water now that Cuomo is bleeding from the COVID data and #metoo scandals.
Looks like investigation results are not public, and there is a strong push to keep that from publication.
And the fact that at least some bolts are clearly out of spec - they mention hot dip galvanized, which is not permitted for A490. Moreover, images are of type 3 weathering steel bolts - which are clearly coated with something..
Counterfeit hardware? What can go wrong with that?

The timing of this becoming an issue right now is not a coincidence.  Not saying bad bolts aren't a significant issue, but the timing of the article speaks volumes.
This may certainly be true - although TU may be too local to be a real force in deciding Cuomo's fate.  But it is not as if Cuomo couldn't sweep the underlying issue under the carpet.

Too local?  TU is the only sizeable newspaper that covers NY State Government.  NY Times only catches the big stuff and NY Post just catches whatever they think embarrasses the Dems and they can make a tabloid headline out of.

Under regular circumstances, Cuomo would ride this bolt thing out unscathed and let the Thruway -- who was really in charge of the project -- take the heat.  But...blood in the water...
It was mentioned on the news as one of three scandals the legislature is investigating, so it's spreading.  And since Nextar broadcasts all state government stories across all their stations in NY media markets (and they now have one on every media market in the state, having recently acquired operating rights to WPIX in NYC), things could get interesting.  People used to say "what happens in Albany stays in Albany".  Not any more!
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Alps

I read the text of the article. It is biased toward the plaintiffs, but that may be based on their interviews and investigations. While this reflects poorly, the summary is that if this happened, it was concealed from the inspectors, so how would Cuomo even have been aware? I don't see that this deserves to be linked politically for that reason (at least right now). So to decouple this from politics and focus on the bridge, if this is true, it's going to be a very expensive process to close lanes and have all of the bolts inspected. And if they find enough to be of concern? Anyone's guess. So I hope, for now, that the defendant's side is more true and the problems were isolated and resolved. We won't know until this develops further.

kalvado

Quote from: Alps on March 07, 2021, 10:15:29 PM
I read the text of the article. It is biased toward the plaintiffs, but that may be based on their interviews and investigations. While this reflects poorly, the summary is that if this happened, it was concealed from the inspectors, so how would Cuomo even have been aware? I don't see that this deserves to be linked politically for that reason (at least right now). So to decouple this from politics and focus on the bridge, if this is true, it's going to be a very expensive process to close lanes and have all of the bolts inspected. And if they find enough to be of concern? Anyone's guess. So I hope, for now, that the defendant's side is more true and the problems were isolated and resolved. We won't know until this develops further.
The bridge is Cuomo's flagship project. In general, Cuomo made infrastructure construction to be his major achievement. LaGuardia, new subway line opened. All with Cuomo's appearance on TV.
And this is his  Daddy's bridge - I mean gov. Cuomo I bridge, a tag Cuomo II slapped on the thing almost unilaterally.
So anything about this bridge must be felt very personal to the governor, tainting his "The Builder" image.

fmendes

didn't a similar thing happen on the Kosciusko or what he calls "kashucsko"

kalvado

#11
Quote from: fmendes on March 08, 2021, 09:57:21 AM
didn't a similar thing happen on the Kosciusko or what he calls "kashucsko"
Which one - Kosciusko Bridge across Mohawk on I-87 Northway, between Albany and Saratoga counties (twin bridges); or Kosciuszko Bridge on I-287 in NYS, across  Newtown Creek?
I don't think there was any work involving structural bolts on Twin bridges within past several years; concrete slabs were replaced - but  those problems were not bolt related.

fmendes

Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2021, 10:07:14 AM
Quote from: fmendes on March 08, 2021, 09:57:21 AM
didn't a similar thing happen on the Kosciusko or what he calls "kashucsko"
Which one - Kosciusko Bridge across Mohawk on I-87 Norway, between Albany and Saratoga counties (twin bridges); or Kosciuszko Bridge on I-287 in NYS, across  Newtown Creek?
I don't think there was any work involving structural bolts on Twin bridges within past several years; concrete slabs were replaced - but  those problems were not bolt related.
the one in Brooklyn the BQE-I278 there was something along the lines of parts being defective
heres the article https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/anti-terror-attack-armor-on-nyc-bridge-hanging-by-straps/      excuse my punctuation

Alps

Quote from: fmendes on March 08, 2021, 10:14:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 08, 2021, 10:07:14 AM
Quote from: fmendes on March 08, 2021, 09:57:21 AM
didn't a similar thing happen on the Kosciusko or what he calls "kashucsko"
Which one - Kosciusko Bridge across Mohawk on I-87 Norway, between Albany and Saratoga counties (twin bridges); or Kosciuszko Bridge on I-287 in NYS, across  Newtown Creek?
I don't think there was any work involving structural bolts on Twin bridges within past several years; concrete slabs were replaced - but  those problems were not bolt related.
the one in Brooklyn the BQE-I278 there was something along the lines of parts being defective
heres the article https://nypost.com/2020/11/30/anti-terror-attack-armor-on-nyc-bridge-hanging-by-straps/      excuse my punctuation
Separation of armor at the base of the cables is multiple times less scary than bolts shearing.

Buffaboy

This gives me memories (or nightmares) of the I-35 Bridge Collapse.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

My Wikipedia county SVG maps: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Buffaboy

kalvado

Quote from: Buffaboy on March 08, 2021, 10:37:25 PM
This gives me memories (or nightmares) of the I-35 Bridge Collapse.
Hopefully, this is a purely theoretical question.. But:
I-35W bridge collapse resulted in a significant amount of federal funds directed for replacement. What would happen in case of a significant problem with Tappan Zee? Would there be federal funding? What about a non-catastrofic situation, when the bridge would be declared unsafe and has to be closed - without prime time press coverage which I-35 got?
That is a toll bridge, previous replacement got a federal loan - not direct funding, and NYS would be paying for the existing bridge for a while. Construction cost is about $200 per capita if spread over NYS population, NYSTA would have hard time raising significant funds again.

fmendes

Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2021, 08:09:17 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on March 08, 2021, 10:37:25 PM
This gives me memories (or nightmares) of the I-35 Bridge Collapse.
Hopefully, this is a purely theoretical question.. But:
I-35W bridge collapse resulted in a significant amount of federal funds directed for replacement. What would happen in case of a significant problem with Tappan Zee? Would there be federal funding? What about a non-catastrofic situation, when the bridge would be declared unsafe and has to be closed - without prime time press coverage which I-35 got?
That is a toll bridge, previous replacement got a federal loan - not direct funding, and NYS would be paying for the existing bridge for a while. Construction cost is about $200 per capita if spread over NYS population, NYSTA would have hard time raising significant funds again.
the i-35W bridge collapesd of if im not mistaking when the bridge was constructed the girder plates used to hold the girders in place were not built to spec thickness and they bent and the bridge say bye bye

kalvado

Quote from: fmendes on March 09, 2021, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2021, 08:09:17 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on March 08, 2021, 10:37:25 PM
This gives me memories (or nightmares) of the I-35 Bridge Collapse.
Hopefully, this is a purely theoretical question.. But:
I-35W bridge collapse resulted in a significant amount of federal funds directed for replacement. What would happen in case of a significant problem with Tappan Zee? Would there be federal funding? What about a non-catastrofic situation, when the bridge would be declared unsafe and has to be closed - without prime time press coverage which I-35 got?
That is a toll bridge, previous replacement got a federal loan - not direct funding, and NYS would be paying for the existing bridge for a while. Construction cost is about $200 per capita if spread over NYS population, NYSTA would have hard time raising significant funds again.
the i-35W bridge collapesd of if im not mistaking when the bridge was constructed the girder plates used to hold the girders in place were not built to spec thickness and they bent and the bridge say bye bye
My question is not technical, it is purely financial. A major bridge problem is a major event regardless of the exact technical nature of the situation. There are quite a few bridges with limited, if any, alternatives. I-84-684 may be an option for upstate if it can handle the traffic; Washington bridge and Lincoln tunnel are at (above?) capacity.  Any serious trouble with a busy bridge is a major event, a major issue for traffic, and often results in an infusion of federal funds.
How would a toll bridge be treated in such a situation? 

ari-s-drives

Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2021, 08:33:19 AM
Quote from: fmendes on March 09, 2021, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 09, 2021, 08:09:17 AM
Quote from: Buffaboy on March 08, 2021, 10:37:25 PM
This gives me memories (or nightmares) of the I-35 Bridge Collapse.
Hopefully, this is a purely theoretical question.. But:
I-35W bridge collapse resulted in a significant amount of federal funds directed for replacement. What would happen in case of a significant problem with Tappan Zee? Would there be federal funding? What about a non-catastrofic situation, when the bridge would be declared unsafe and has to be closed - without prime time press coverage which I-35 got?
That is a toll bridge, previous replacement got a federal loan - not direct funding, and NYS would be paying for the existing bridge for a while. Construction cost is about $200 per capita if spread over NYS population, NYSTA would have hard time raising significant funds again.
the i-35W bridge collapesd of if im not mistaking when the bridge was constructed the girder plates used to hold the girders in place were not built to spec thickness and they bent and the bridge say bye bye
My question is not technical, it is purely financial. A major bridge problem is a major event regardless of the exact technical nature of the situation. There are quite a few bridges with limited, if any, alternatives. I-84-684 may be an option for upstate if it can handle the traffic; Washington bridge and Lincoln tunnel are at (above?) capacity.  Any serious trouble with a busy bridge is a major event, a major issue for traffic, and often results in an infusion of federal funds.
How would a toll bridge be treated in such a situation?

When the Eastern Span of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge was replaced in 2013, Wikipedia indicates that it would have been eligible for federal funds (because it carries an Interstate designation) but that it was financed with state bonds and tolls instead because materials from outside of the US were used. I can't find a citation on whether the Interstate designation itself warranted funds, only an article from the Press-Democrat which says that the state did not apply for them.

It's also unclear whether it matters that the bridge is part of a toll road, not just a toll bridge as part of an untolled freeway.

Jim

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Twitter @JimTeresco (roads, travel, skiing, weather, sports)

kalvado

Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2021, 01:44:01 PM
Some responses to the TU article:

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/governor-mario-m-cuomo-bridge/2021/03/09/cuomo-bridge-bolts-safe-project-director-says/4642494001/
Short summary: there is some manufacturing defect in bolts - that is exactly what TU said. No estimates of how many - TU said 1% best case, 50% worst case.
There is a statement that only one failed (missing?) bolt was found - but TU allegation is that bolts can fracture in-place and not visibly fail.
But the bridge is safe. Good to know that, but I would love to see a bit more technical details.  probably wouldn't happen, though

Alps

Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2021, 01:44:01 PM
Some responses to the TU article:

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/governor-mario-m-cuomo-bridge/2021/03/09/cuomo-bridge-bolts-safe-project-director-says/4642494001/
As I noted, the original story was quite biased. The response, of course, is biased the other way. But working in the industry, I guarantee you no one is going to keep the bridge open "because people expect it" if they think there is any realistic chance of failure. That is not something you want on your resume.

kalvado

Quote from: Alps on March 09, 2021, 06:49:34 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2021, 01:44:01 PM
Some responses to the TU article:

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/governor-mario-m-cuomo-bridge/2021/03/09/cuomo-bridge-bolts-safe-project-director-says/4642494001/
As I noted, the original story was quite biased. The response, of course, is biased the other way. But working in the industry, I guarantee you no one is going to keep the bridge open "because people expect it" if they think there is any realistic chance of failure. That is not something you want on your resume.
I read up on the alleged problem a bit.  Nope, I am not convinced this is the end of story.
TU article shows very specific issues, which are not of a mainstream type; in fact some areas of the issue are under research right now. this specific type of high-performance bolts may be the only area transportation engineer would see it. There is some work on using such novel steel in car load-bearing components, but this is not exactly the same field.
Here is a nice writeup on the issue: https://www.portlandbolt.com/technical/faqs/galvanizing-high-strength-bolts/
Some US companies claim that they still can galvanize A490 by modifying the cleaning procedure.
TU again makes a specific allegation that at least some of those bolts are Zn coated. If that is the actual case, and that lead to a problem, this is not a "defect" as LoHud article states, this is a significant technology violation. 
Regarding Zn coating, looks like there are way to make things work; e.g. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10800-013-0529-2
Not sure if that made to mainstream production yet

tl;dr: since exonerating report is taxpayer-funded per LoHud paper, could someone FOIL it? Would be an interesting read. Builders should have no objections to releasing of documents if it says there are no issues!

hbelkins

Quote from: Alps on March 09, 2021, 06:49:34 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2021, 01:44:01 PM
Some responses to the TU article:

https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/governor-mario-m-cuomo-bridge/2021/03/09/cuomo-bridge-bolts-safe-project-director-says/4642494001/
As I noted, the original story was quite biased. The response, of course, is biased the other way. But working in the industry, I guarantee you no one is going to keep the bridge open "because people expect it" if they think there is any realistic chance of failure. That is not something you want on your resume.

This. If anything, they'll close it out of an abundance of caution if they think it's necessary or the least bit unsafe. Kentucky has been closing structures like crazy in recent months; mostly low-water bridges and metal or concrete box culverts, due to insufficient supporting material or insufficient fill. Nothing has really changed to make them unsafe as compared to their condition prior to inspection, but they're being proactive in these closures just in case. And many of these are on low-volume rural roads. I can't imagine anyone keeping the TZB/MMC bridge open if they had any questions whatsoever, given the traffic that road carries.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

02 Park Ave

before shutting the bridge down completely, I could see them banning trucks and only having two lanes open to cars and even then perhaps only during rush hours.
C-o-H



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