The radical plan to destroy time zones

[Pete from Boston]

Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

Oh, but it is both!  While the full moon is part of it, so is the solstice, which is part of the solar calendar (solstice, after all).

The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.

I think you answered your own question, not that it was really a question.  While I am no expert, over the years what I have heard is that these dates were adapted to capitalize on or supplant existing pagan holidays, many of which centered around these natural milestones in the calendar.

[CtrlAltDel]

Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..

Based on the Jewish calandar. The last supper was the Passover Seder.  It is around Passover. So the date was known. Jesus birth was never specified. It was probably in the springtime when sheppards would have been in the field The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.

That Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.

Also, only one major Christian feast takes place around the solstice. Easter takes place somewhat near the equinox, which is something a bit different. Nothing in particular takes place at the summer solstice or the fall equinox.

As for the questions of the date of Easter, those can't be answered easily. A lot of history and politicking and math has gone into determining that date. Suffice it to say here, though, that Easter is linked to the Jewish commemoration of Passover, which occurs on a set date in the Hebrew calendar. Now the Hebrew calendar has months that start and end with the new moon, with leap months added every now and again to keep things aligned with the seasons. Since Passover takes place in the spring, near the full moon, the decision was made to place Easter as the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Why Sunday? This was a huge debate at one time, with one group saying that Easter should occur at the same time Passover does, with no regard for days of the week, and another saying that Easter should be on a Sunday since every Sunday is a commemoration of the resurrection. Eventually the second group won out, mostly because there was a desire to separate Christian Easter from the Jewish Passover. The rule that was eventually adopted (first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox), does exactly this, placing Easter more often than not at about a week after Passover.

[english si]

Based on the Jewish calandar.

Well sort of - a compromise between those who took the Julian day of March 25th (which was the solstice, but also Nisan 14 in AD33) to avoid relying on the Jewish calendar with the new year announced by priests, and those who celebrated it based entirely on the Jewish calendar. They went with a way of calculating the Sunday after 'Passover' (usually, but not always) using the Julian calendar rather than needing to rely on the Jewish calendar, keeping the link with Passover but without needing to rely on Jewish priests.

Jesus birth was never specified. It was probably in the springtime when sheppards would have been in the field The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

It was picked as the winter solstice for reasons that have nothing to do with Saturnalia, which came at least 50 years after the idea of "Jesus was born on December 25" came about (the big celebration was a week later, with New Years, rather than the solstice) and was on the way out come the time that the date was solidified and became a big celebration for Christians all over.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.

That's because they made an idealised calculation for Jesus' birth - Jesus died at the Spring equinox (though it being the equinox was pretty irrelevant to that) and clearly must have spent a full number of (Julian) years between incarnation and death, so therefore must have been conceived on March 25th (the Feast of the Annunciation, fixed the Julian calendar rather than moveable like Easter is), and then born exactly 9 months later on the winter equinox... It's weird, but it stuck.

Stuff like Hogmanay, Uphellia (Viking celebration), Julian New Year, etc suggest that a week after the solstice was the key date for pagans.

Wikipedia tells us Easter was happening later and later in the solar year, so the Gregorian calendar aimed to realign it with its traditional time.

Three extra leap days every four centuries than the Gregorian, which has a smaller error. By the 1600, the calendar was 12 days off. Greg however took 4 extra days off, and the solstices/equinoxes moved from the 25th that they were in the Julian calendar to the 21st.

[english si]

Technically the Julian Calendar was developed LONG before Christianity was the religion of Rome.

And ~40 years before Christ was born.

I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..

You are thinking in solar calendar terms...

Easter is always a Sunday as the day of the week has significance.

Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.

That Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.

I knew I should have looked over the page. Good stuff

Why Sunday? This was a huge debate at one time, with one group saying that Easter should occur at the same time Passover does,

Surely the third day afterwards?

I think you answered your own question, not that it was really a question.  While I am no expert, over the years what I have heard is that these dates were adapted to capitalize on or supplant existing pagan holidays, many of which centered around these natural milestones in the calendar.

A common myth since Victorian times (when what Celtic/Saxon pagans celebrated on their feast days was retrospectively made up based on what Christians were doing around that time of year for a reason lost in time). It's also quite an North European-centric myth, where Christian celebrations that started in Syria, Asia Minor, Greece, etc are linked to pagan festivals from Scotland, Ireland, Germania, or whatever that weren't in the Roman empire, nor had little more than a handful of Christians living in them until well after the feast was ingrained in 'Christendom'. Samhain and Halloween being a big one where the "two feasts similar times, therefore copy" is invoked where there is, at-best, a tenuous link and a more rational explanation is that a day halfway between equinox and solstice is going to be a common day to hold a feat.

A similar thing would be the JWs decrying Easter as pagan because of English etymology of the word (German too) that isn't an issue with almost all other languages: eg Pesach in French, from the Latinisation of the Hebrew word for Passover (though that might still be beyond the pale for them - the ones I met were pretty anti-Semitic).

C.S. Lewis would make the point that the year tells the Christian story and Paganism would pick up on those things in creation - eg gods of the harvest that rise from the dead around the spring equinox makes sense, because they are copying the Christian story that has been told since the dawn of time: resurrection in the spring.

I looked up what I was thinking about, and being of the United States, I automatically assumed what happens here applies to the whole world.

A typical part of the human condition

Here, as in all the British Empire, the year did indeed start on March 25 for 600 years until 1752.  Thus, March 24, 1731 was followed by March 25, 1732.  While we today say George Washington was born in 1732, in the reality of his time and birthplace he was born in February of 1731, a month or so before 1732 began.

A legal fiction to better fit the agricultural year, and for ~350 of the 597 years when it happened, New Year's Day was celebrated as a festival on Jan 1.

The English tax/financial year still begins in April (though whether it's the 1st or the 6th depends on stuff - eg road numbers, linked to funding, used to only change on April 1) because of it (Scotland has it a quarter later, with their roads first getting numbered 25-06-22, rather than the 01-04-22 that they were in England):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_days

[GaryV]

That Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.

So who recorded the date of the Annunciation?

[vdeane]

Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.

If they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.

[Pete from Boston]

Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.

If they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.

I suspect the Archbishop was offered a substantial donation by Hallmark and Cadbury.

Some of the oldest churches predate all these folks' offices and wouldn't even bother laughing at this proposal.

[english si]

So who recorded the date of the Annunciation?

Mary would have, but it was Tertullian about AD130 (120 years before the first reference to Saturnalia)'s linking it to the Crucifixion, and thus the spring equinox (co-incidentally), for philosophical/theological reasons rather than historical that stuck. He also had the winter solstice (again, co-incidence rather than deliberately that day) as Christmas explicitly.

If they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.

So closest Sunday, rather than 2-days after (that I gave), the Julian date for the spring equinox of the 25th of March then.

I suspect the Archbishop was offered a substantial donation by Hallmark and Cadbury.

If the date is confusing, then people will buy cards/eggs at the wrong times and lose/eat them and then have to buy more...

I have no idea what bought this move on from the ABC, but he's doing it. Probably something like complaints of confusion from people on the street. Good Friday and 'Easter Monday' are Public Holidays in the UK, and having them as moveable feasts makes a mess. No one seems to care about Ascension being moveable (40 days after Easter) because the Whitsun Bank Holiday is fixed to the last week of May and had it's name changed to "Late Spring Bank Holiday".

Some of the oldest churches predate all these folks' offices and wouldn't even bother laughing at this proposal.

I gather they are interested in discussing it, though clearly the 1700 years of settlement on this issue is going to play a big part in whether or not it happens.

[Pete from Boston]

My point about the companies is that a standardized date simplifies the marketing plan.  I'm sure they would be on board.  It is the end of their half of the year (Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter all sell candy and cards) so I'm sure they would lobby for a late Easter.  Also to get that preachy fellow with the gruesome wounds out of it–scares the kiddies who are hunting for Cadbury Brand Chocolate Easter Eggs.

[hbelkins]

Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.

And you expect us non-Catholics to blindly follow what the Pope decrees?

That's the whole idea of why we're NOT Catholics. 

[JoePCool14]

Late to the party, but oh well.

Now for my opinions...

No.

[english si]

And you expect us non-Catholics to blindly follow what the Pope decrees?

That's the whole idea of why we're NOT Catholics.

Nor are Welby, the Patriarch and the various other denomination heads.

It would be an ecumenical decision, not a unilateral one.

[mrsman]

In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

So nobody should be surprised when Easter comes early -- it's listed on the calendar.

[Rothman]

In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

Tradition!

[english si]

In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

Tradition!

Tradition (1690 years and counting...) would be a clear reason not to change.

[TravelingBethelite]

Oy vey. This disscussion has sure gone down the rabbit hole!  *shot*

[CNGL-Leudimin]

Today is February 29th, the day that appears only every four years, and when it does it messes up the calendar. For example, this year's causes July 25th to 'leap' over Sunday (hence 'leap day' which is today), causing the Xacobeo (Holy Year of Compostela) not to happen for another 5 years (last happened in 2010, will not happen until 2021). That is why my only calendar reform proposal is leaving the leap day out of the week (That's it, February 29th wouldn't be any particular week day), thus years would return to the same every 7 years instead of the current, irregular pattern of 6-5-6-11 years. This, however, would be unpopular among religious groups. As I've explained before, I find perennial calendars boring as every year is the same, as I like to see calendar days rotating through all week days.

[jeffandnicole]

In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

So nobody should be surprised when Easter comes early -- it's listed on the calendar.

LOL..."Apps"

Shows how dependent some people are on them.  People have been able to figure out the date of Easter way, way before cell phones existed, much less Apps!

[kkt]

Happy Birthday, Frederick!

[Pete from Boston]

That is why my only calendar reform proposal is leaving the leap day out of the week (That's it, February 29th wouldn't be any particular week day)

I like this idea because it would remind us that day what an arbitrary fiction any calendar is.  Not only is today not Monday, no day is really Monday.

[texaskdog]

time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?

[english si]

Happy Birthday, Frederick!

A friend of mine's great-granddad was born 120 years ago today. His first birthday was when he was 8 years old! He got the typical 'telegram'* from the Queen on reaching 100 years on his 24th birthday.

Hope you are all wearing yellow and blue! and don't forget that real life is for March!

*it's a card with her face, but hand signed. My grandparents get one every year on their anniversary now as they have been married over 60 years. They complain that it's the same card each year, though they aren't so ungrateful not to have it permanently on display.

[kkt]

time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?

No problem.  We'll just split up all the countries that occupy more than 15 degrees of longitude.

[freebrickproductions]

time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?

No problem.  We'll just split up all the countries that occupy more than 15 degrees of longitude.

I know the people who want to succeed from the US wouldn't mind that too much.

[leroys73]

My two cents:  Either do away with daylight savings time or use it all year. 

In our country, USA, it is very confusing when DST is in play and one is traveling when AZ and HI do not recognize DST nor the Navajo Reservation.  At one time Indiana did not.  Then when we change the clocks seems to change from time to time and politics.

Of course the time zone boundaries have changed over the years which for us old farts who have traveled all over the world it can make it even more confusing.

I see no sense in DST.  I personally like more daylight in the evening year round but I'd be happy if the time just stayed the same.