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Ukraine

Started by Chris, March 02, 2022, 11:41:11 AM

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Road Hog

Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."


Scott5114

One of the first things that the Russian army did upon capturing Mariupol was replace the city limit signs to Russian spec. Note the spelling change from Ukrainian Маріу́поль to Russian Мариу́поль.



This sort of thing is precisely why Ukraine is touchy about things like "Kiev" vs. "Kyiv", "the Ukraine" vs. "Ukraine", etc.
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formulanone

Quote from: Scott5114 on June 02, 2022, 12:43:20 AM
One of the first things that the Russian army did upon capturing Mariupol was replace the city limit signs to Russian spec. Note the spelling change from Ukrainian Маріу́поль to Russian Мариу́поль.



This sort of thing is precisely why Ukraine is touchy about things like "Kiev" vs. "Kyiv", "the Ukraine" vs. "Ukraine", etc.

...and taking away the bilingual aspect of the Ukrainian-spec signage.

bing101

#28
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-war-explosion-kherson-bridge-crimea-putin-birthday-rcna51324

Here is more a bridge has been destroyed in Russia as a result of war.



Note this is bound to be politically loaded here.

https://news.yahoo.com/hours-putin-turns-70-bridge-213607917.html

triplemultiplex

That bridge has been doomed for a long time. In fact, I'm surprised it took this long to get wasted.  Ukraine must have been waiting for the right moment when it would provide an additional tactical advantage on top of the strategic advantage.  It could signal their intent to liberate all of Crimea and not just drive the Ruskies out of Kherson.  They've been saying as much all summer, but things might be happening sooner rather than later.  Winter is coming...
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

oscar

^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
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Scott5114

Quote from: oscar on October 10, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.

That was what the plan was...until the Russians found out they didn't actually have any boats on hand that would be suitable for use as ferries. Oops.

The explosion only actually destroyed one carriageway. The other is damaged, enough to have warped from the heat, but is still standing. The Russians are operating one lane on the damaged carriageway, with pilot cars, and not allowing trucks or buses across. (I've seen speculation that this is probably not safe, since there's no way a safety inspection as thorough as what we'd expect in the United States could have taken place in the time before they reopened it.) There have been reports of 6-km-long queues to head from Crimea into Russia.

Kyiv is staying quiet about exactly how the bridge was damaged–for several hours after the attack the only Ukrainian government acknowledgement of the attack was a tweet reading merely "sick burn" in English. Last I heard, they still haven't officially taken responsibility for the attack. The prevailing Internet theory is that the SBU (the Ukrainian intelligence agency) was involved, and that it was done by blowing up a truck loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer (the same explosive used in the Oklahoma City and Nashville Christmas bombings). It is not known whether the driver of the truck, who died in the explosion, was part of the operation or not.
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Chris

The Crimea Bridge consists of two parallel bridges, which are physically separate, a higher railway bridge and a motorway bridge. Both bridges consists of two parallel spans built right up to each other. This explains why the Crimea-bound roadway collapsed but the Russia-bound roadway did not.

The road bridge is in fact a steel bridge, unlike the Antonivka Bridge across the Dnipro River at Kherson, which is a reinforced concrete box girder bridge. The Antonivka Bridge has been pounded by HIMARS launched GMLRS rockets. Some estimates are that 120 - 140 GMLRS rockets have been fired at the Antonivka Bridge. This has rendered it unsafe for motorized traffic, but it hasn't collapsed. There are large holes in it.

The Ukrainians have targeted the larger box girder section of the Antonivka Bridge and not the beam bridge segment (which might have been repaired easier). However this shows that concrete bridges are sturdy structures that cannot easily be destroyed by artillery fire. This bridge is also not very old, it was built from 1977 to 1985.

Aerial photo of the Antonivka Bridge near Kherson. The section under constant fire is on the left (south side).

Molandfreak

Quote from: Road Hog on June 01, 2022, 10:28:06 PM
Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."
But Eastern Slavic languages don't even have definite articles.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

US 89

Quote from: Molandfreak on October 11, 2022, 07:57:54 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on June 01, 2022, 10:28:06 PM
Adding an article in front of a country name is commonplace in other languages: "la France," "die Türkei."
But Eastern Slavic languages don't even have definite articles.

But English does.

In English, we generally don't put articles in front of country names, but we do put them in front of region names. This is why Ukrainians don't like when people use "the Ukraine" in English - it suggests it's merely a region instead of a country on its own. In addition, the name "Ukraine" literally means something along the lines of "borderlands" which in today's political climate might suggest a role as a borderland region of Russia.

It's similar to how we use "the Southwest" for the region in the US, or "the Midlands" for the region in England.

Scott5114

Quote from: Chris on October 11, 2022, 04:29:36 PM
The road bridge is in fact a steel bridge, unlike the Antonivka Bridge across the Dnipro River at Kherson, which is a reinforced concrete box girder bridge. The Antonivka Bridge has been pounded by HIMARS launched GMLRS rockets. Some estimates are that 120 - 140 GMLRS rockets have been fired at the Antonivka Bridge. This has rendered it unsafe for motorized traffic, but it hasn't collapsed. There are large holes in it.

The Ukrainians have targeted the larger box girder section of the Antonivka Bridge and not the beam bridge segment (which might have been repaired easier). However this shows that concrete bridges are sturdy structures that cannot easily be destroyed by artillery fire. This bridge is also not very old, it was built from 1977 to 1985.

This is the first time I've ever actually seen a picture of the Kherson area. It looks like a lovely area; it's a shame that it's been subject to such heavy fighting.

I've seen posts from Ukrainians commenting that the Antonivka Bridge is somewhat typical of Soviet-era bridge construction–spartan in appearance, but built like a tank (moreso than an actual Soviet tank, as it turns out). There's a similar story with the bridge at Nova Kakhova.
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Chris

Soviet bridges are generally seen as oversized, maybe they were designed to withstand tanks, bombing and other abuse in wartime.

The Russians fired over a dozen cruise missiles on the Dniester road/rail bridge at Zatoka (southwest of Odessa) and they only managed to incur relatively minor damage.

https://twitter.com/ghostofkebab/status/1518939823842766848

Chris

More details of the damage at the Crimea Bridge:






formulanone


MultiMillionMiler

Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2022, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: oscar on October 10, 2022, 04:26:43 PM
^^ FWIW, Russian authorities were claiming the bridge was damaged, not destroyed, and would be reopened with restrictions pending repairs, with an old ferry service revived to handle heavy vehicles. That damage assessment is disputed.

That was what the plan was...until the Russians found out they didn't actually have any boats on hand that would be suitable for use as ferries. Oops.

The explosion only actually destroyed one carriageway. The other is damaged, enough to have warped from the heat, but is still standing. The Russians are operating one lane on the damaged carriageway, with pilot cars, and not allowing trucks or buses across. (I've seen speculation that this is probably not safe, since there's no way a safety inspection as thorough as what we'd expect in the United States could have taken place in the time before they reopened it.) There have been reports of 6-km-long queues to head from Crimea into Russia.

Kyiv is staying quiet about exactly how the bridge was damaged–for several hours after the attack the only Ukrainian government acknowledgement of the attack was a tweet reading merely "sick burn" in English. Last I heard, they still haven't officially taken responsibility for the attack. The prevailing Internet theory is that the SBU (the Ukrainian intelligence agency) was involved, and that it was done by blowing up a truck loaded with ammonium nitrate fertilizer (the same explosive used in the Oklahoma City and Nashville Christmas bombings). It is not known whether the driver of the truck, who died in the explosion, was part of the operation or not.

Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship.  :-D :-D :-D

Scott5114

Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 02:12:49 PM
Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship.  :-D :-D :-D

The number of Russian claims of military equipment going up in flames due to improper cigarette disposal is kind of hilarious.
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formulanone

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 12, 2023, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on January 12, 2023, 02:12:49 PM
Like when Russia claimed they "accidentally" sunk their own warship.  :-D :-D :-D

The number of Russian claims of military equipment going up in flames due to improper cigarette disposal is kind of hilarious.

The number of Russians who oppose the war and mysteriously fall out of windows is also "odd".

Tom958

I just did some Google surfing and I want to make some notes:

There's only one proper rural motorway in Ukraine: E105 from the far outskirts of Dnipro to the outskirts of Kharkiv. The proper motorway section is 157 km long, part of the 218 km route from Dnipro to Kharkiv.

There are some other four-lane routes, too. Generally, they have narrow grassed medians with nearly-continuous metal guardrails. Opportunities to cross are rare, with right-turn-only access to and from side roads and u-turn ramps provided at varying distances. Interchanges are few, and a surprising proportion of them are full four-loop cloverleafs. Simple diamonds are extremely rare, as are traffic signals and roundabouts. Interchanges are more common and more familiar in layout on the newer sections.

Corridors include:

E95 from Odesa to Kyiv and beyond to a point north of Chernihiv, a total of 641 km.  this corridor ends almost 50 km short of the border with Belarus. In fact, none of the four-lane corridors connect to any international border, east or west. I'm not gonna do a big Streetview tour, but check this out: an interchange that's nearly complete except that the bridge isn't connected to the approach roads! There are two or three of these on E95-- I didn't see any anywhere else. WTF?

E40, Rivne via Kyiv to Chutove, 728 km. I was unpleasantly amazed to discover that there aren't four-fane highways from Kyiv to either Lviv or Kharkiv; it's another 211 km from Rivne to Lviv and another 92 km from Chutove to Kharkiv. 342 km east of Kyiv, E40 passes through Poltava, which has a motorway spur headed a short distance toward Dnipro, though along a corridor with no existing major roads. For that matter, while it appears that E40 from Chutove to Kharkiv will be widened in situ, a case could be made to strike out on a new terrain alignment that joins E105 to connect to Kharkiv instead.

Finally, there H20 from Mariupol via Donetsk toward Kramatorsk, something like 200 km-- Google won't plot a direct route through the active combat zone. This route the least elaborate in terms of intersection treatments, though the Donetsk bypass is pretty impressive.

Kyiv is interesting, too. Maybe later.


jakeroot

#43
Quote from: Tom958 on January 23, 2023, 07:39:43 PM
Finally, there H20 from Mariupol via Donetsk toward Kramatorsk, something like 200 km-- Google won't plot a direct route through the active combat zone. This route the least elaborate in terms of intersection treatments, though the Donetsk bypass is pretty impressive.

It looked like the Donetsk Bypass was set to become the Donetsk Ring Road, but the northern sections that had been built have since been closed and have fallen into disrepair severely damaged by war, and other sections that were partially built were abandoned. I assume this is the result of a change in local politics (to put it lightly). The nearby airport became the epicentre for initial Ukraine-Russia battles, which caused severe damage to surrounding infrastructure, including this new freeway.

Chris

The Donetsk Bypass was under construction when it became a front line in 2014-2015. Trenches have been dug across it at several locations.

Tom958

Wow, people actually read that! Thanks!

Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2023, 03:40:25 AM
The Donetsk Bypass was under construction when it became a front line in 2014-2015. Trenches have been dug across it at several locations.

I swear they weren't there the last time I looked, but there are 2011 Streetviews for the bypass and most of Donetsk now, with the bypass clearly open for traffic.  :clap:

Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2023, 09:24:47 PMIt looked like the Donetsk Bypass was set to become the Donetsk Ring Road, but the northern sections that had been built have since been closed and have fallen into disrepair severely damaged by war, and other sections that were partially built were abandoned. I assume this is the result of a change in local politics (to put it lightly). The nearby airport became the epicentre for initial Ukraine-Russia battles, which caused severe damage to surrounding infrastructure, including this new freeway.

That's what it looked like to me, too. And there's still fairly intense fighting around there, with no end in sight.

Chris

The western bypass was not yet completed by the time the initial War in Donbas broke out in 2014.

Fighting was really intense at that time, most satellite towns near the bypass were completely destroyed, as well as the Donetsk Airport.

Right now the front line hasn't moved much, it's around where the western / northwestern bypass is. Russian advances to the suburbs of Mari'inka and Avdi'ivka have stalled out for almost a year now. Much of that is done by the Donetsk People's Republic armed forces, which are combat ineffective due to heavy losses on the periphery of Donetsk city.

Evan_Th

Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?

jakeroot

Quote from: Chris on January 24, 2023, 06:29:54 AM
Fighting was really intense at that time, most satellite towns near the bypass were completely destroyed, as well as the Donetsk Airport.

The pictures I'm seeing of the airport are just mind-boggling. An impressive infrastructure project on its own, completely laid to waste only a couple of years after opening. Never seen anything quite like it.

Quote from: Evan_Th on January 24, 2023, 01:37:07 PM
Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?

Very, very unlikely. From what the war has done to the region as a whole, I doubt a completed ring road would have changed anything. Maybe accelerate the evacuation of citizens?

Scott5114

Quote from: Evan_Th on January 24, 2023, 01:37:07 PM
Knowing nothing about Ukrainian roads, and very little about the fighting in 2014, I'm wondering if the Donetsk Ring Road being complete would've changed the course of the fighting at all?

Doubtful. The cause of the fighting in 2014 is more or less the same as it is now–Vladimir Putin wants the Donbas because it has a lot of natural resources, primarily fossil fuels. The 2014 fighting was basically an attempt at doing this through backdoor means, putting up Russian-backed separatist governments so that Russia could pretend that the people in the region actually wanted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. The precipitating event for the 2022 invasion was Putin recognizing the Donetsk and Luhansk separatist governments as independent, and then invading Ukraine to "protect" these governments from the Ukrainian government (who, as you might expect, have always treated them as illegitimate).
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