There are 2 parts. The first is by car; the 2nd is by biking or walking:
What stores, businesses or other commercial/government buildings can you get to without getting on a main road. (Unfortunately, if you already live on a main road, this may exclude you!)
The guidelines: For this topic, a main road would be a county roadway, state, US or Interstate...or similar (Farm route in Texas, etc).
What can be included: A store that fronts a main road but has a parking lot or parallel parking connected to or just across from the businesses, still on the side road in your neighborhood. A shopping center you can enter from the side road and get to every store.
Be reasonable. If you can enter the parking lot from the side road, it's fine. If you park on the side road and walk past several stores along the main road, then no, unless the stores are all in a shopping center accessible from that side road. If you need to climb a 10 foot retaining wall to get to the stores where there's no sidewalk, then no, it's excluded. The business must have 2 way access from the side road; if you can only enter or exit but not both, it's excluded for those driving, but accessible for those walking.
If you can park on your side road and walk across the main street, that doesn't count because you're leaving your neighborhood. If you can park on your street and walk 3,000 miles across the country, then no, it's not reasonable.
To use my neighborhood as an example: I can get to an elementary school and some sort of daycare. I can get to a hospital's emergency room, who's entrance is on the side road. However, to walk into the front door of the hospital, I would need to park on a residential street and walk about a 1/4 mile down the main road, which is gonna push the limits of this topic, especially as the main parking lot is only accessible from the main roadway. There are 2 convenience stores of the same chain - however, the parking lot of the one 2 blocks away isn't accessible from the side road but I can reach it as a pedestrian just by walking over a curb line; the one on the other side of the neighborhood does have a parking lot accessible from a side road. There's a small independent hardware store, a few other medical places and another small convenience store as well that I can park next to without leaving my neighborhood.
Really none since I live in a gated neighborhood that's isolated from really almost all of Fresno. On foot I have reached downtown several times when I've been on runs using the road network and canals, it's about a 8-9 mile one-way trip. The irrigation canals interestingly can get you pretty much most places in the city without really using roads. I can get to a Vons 2 miles to the north if I left the side gate of my neighbor if I used a couple empty fields and skirted a golf course.
To clarify: Are we talking only about travel by car (or other motorized vehicle) or does walking count? In my case it matters because there is a path through the woods that allows for walking to places that would require use of arterial roads to access by car. (The path isn't really suitable for biking.)
OK, the "county roadway" around here would be difficult to define. Because we have many city roads, typically those that are on the township 1-mile sector lines, that get county support for road repairs. But some are roads owned by the county itself. None of them are numbered.
Given that I don't know for sure what roads might be county owned, but assuming all the ones in our suburban cities are city owned, I can drive to:
- Multiple gas stations, convenience stores, strip malls, restaurants, fast food, churches
- Several grocery stores
- Several malls
- Big box stores and home supply stores
- Civic buildings, library, courthouse, etc.
- Farmer's market
Edit: that list would be reduced somewhat if we are not allowed to cross a numbered highway - but not by much. Maybe just a reduction in quantity of individual places.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 29, 2019, 09:54:51 AM
To clarify: Are we talking only about travel by car (or other motorized vehicle) or does walking count? In my case it matters because there is a path through the woods that allows for walking to places that would require use of arterial roads to access by car. (The path isn’t really suitable for biking.)
Walking definitely counts, which is why I split up the question into two modes...vehicles (cars) and non-vehicles (bikes, peds). As long as that pathway doesn't cross a main road, you're good.
Quote from: GaryV on October 29, 2019, 12:45:49 PM
OK, the "county roadway" around here would be difficult to define. Because we have many city roads, typically those that are on the township 1-mile sector lines, that get county support for road repairs. But some are roads owned by the county itself. None of them are numbered.
Edit: that list would be reduced somewhat if we are not allowed to cross a numbered highway - but not by much. Maybe just a reduction in quantity of individual places.
Note that I said "Main road", with a county road as an example. Sounds like these city roads are your main roads, so anything that requires going on them would be leaving your neighborhood.
The local YMCA branch, an insurance agent, a children's dance/ballet company, a hair salon, and an elementary school; by car or walking/biking.
A Harris Teeter grocery store, two bank ATMs, a private club bar, Chinese and Mexican restaurants, two gas stations, a car wash, a CVS, a barber shop, and a few other shops without getting on our main road. By car only. Nothing really within walking distance of less than a mile.
There used to be a carryout at the corner on the main road, a half-mile away, but it was closed and demolished years ago. The property is zoned commercial, so another convenience store could go in there, but we're kind of in the sticks here, so I'm not holding my breath. Stores are about a mile away in one direction, town is about a mile away in the other direction so it's not like we would starve. Otherwise, there's not much except for our nice, quiet neighborhood.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 29, 2019, 12:55:17 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 29, 2019, 09:54:51 AM
To clarify: Are we talking only about travel by car (or other motorized vehicle) or does walking count? In my case it matters because there is a path through the woods that allows for walking to places that would require use of arterial roads to access by car. (The path isn't really suitable for biking.)
Walking definitely counts, which is why I split up the question into two modes...vehicles (cars) and non-vehicles (bikes, peds). As long as that pathway doesn't cross a main road, you're good.
D'oh, there it is right in your first paragraph. I was so focused on the rest of your post that I overlooked that sentence!
For me, by car the only place I can go without using an arterial road (a Virginia secondary route in either case) would be a Mormon church–I believe they actually call it a "meetinghouse" –whose parking has an entrance from a neighborhood-level street accessible from my neighborhood. (While the street I use to exit my neighborhood is maintained by VDOT, it's not arterial-level and I don't count it for purposes of this thread. It wouldn't be a "county road" in most places.) The only other place accessible by car is the community center and pool, but I view that as part of our neighborhood.
On foot, as noted above there is a dirt path through the woods that leads to a nearby park. That park's minor access road connects to a neighborhood-level street; if I walk there and cross that street, I reach a shopping center with, among other things, a Roy Rogers, a Dunkin Donuts, a grocery store, and a number of other businesses. It's a 1.1-mile walk each way via this route and it avoids using sidewalks adjacent to arterial-level roads. That's about as far as I could go for purposes of this thread because I'd have to cross an arterial to go further.
I can get into the downtown area. However, town hall and the post office is on a state numbered route. I can also get to another village within town if I go a certain way by car or take a walking trail. I can also get to a gas station, a small plaza with some offices, a Subway, then a hotel and a Dunkin and another gas station before the road turns into a numbered route. There's also a plaza with a Domino's, a Chinese take out place, a Dollar Tree, and a few other places that are on my side of the state route, as well as a couple gas stations, a soon to be re-opened restaurant under the 6th name in 4 years, and an elementary school that's pretty much in my back yard. Can also get to 3 churches, and even a brewery
I can get to nowhere. The street I'm on ends at a rural farm road with a 45 speed limit. I could bike to neighboring towns, and I have before, but it's not very safe with no shoulders and cars going 15-20 above the speed limit.
My driveway connects to a state route. I'm out in the country; the nearest business is a small country store about a mile and a half from me. It would be impossible to walk there without being on the highway for at least a short period of time, due to the terrain of this area.
My street is an access road from the "gateway" to Historic Dover. However, that road has no signed number, just an internal maintenance road number for Kent County DE.
The access road also serves a tutoring/community center, a large gas station, and a small strip mall. Thankfully, with all this activity, it's not too bad to leave my neighborhood outside of rush hour. But I'm really glad I can walk to work and avoid all of that.
I find the restrictions a little illogical.
There's a Stewart's in my neighborhood and my neighborhood is within a quite comfortable walking distance to a large shopping complex that includes a Target, Lowe's, Old Navy, Five Guys and Price Chopper. But, to walk to the shopping complex would require walking along the "main road" for half-a-mile or less.
I like living close to such businesses, but the trade-off is light pollution and a little traffic noise.
Without crossing a main road, the 4-lane Forest Hill Avenue that is 1/2 mile from my house --
A shopping center with about 25 stores, standalone 7-11, McDonalds, several car repair places, an ABC store and a few other stores.
While not "stores, businesses or other commercial/government buildings," the James River is 1/2 mile away and provides recreational opportunities such as hiking, boating, rafting and swimming, the latter not permitted when the river is at flood stage.
While I live in a gated community, it is still considered a part of the surrounding Deerwood neighborhood of the larger Southside neighborhood. I live off of Baymeadows Road E, an extension (but not actually a part of due to not having a Florida State Road designation) of Baymeadows Road aka Florida State Road 152, which once had its eastern terminus at nearby Southside Boulevard at the 1960 Deerwood Country Club and its adjacent borrow pit, where the Deerwood Village Shopping Center was eventually built, once there was enough demand for it (and the old alignment is still there as Old Baymeadows Road, but with no Florida State Road designation). Apparently, according to Historic Aerials, what is now Baymeadows Road wasn't actually called such until 1987-1993...it was once known as Goodby's Lake Road west of Philips Highway/US 1 and the Florida East Coast tracks and as San Clerc Road east of Philips and the railroad tracks!
This thread is tailored to an urban lifestyle. I can't think of many suburban neighborhoods that have direct access to any businesses at all, much less multiple, or a whole bunch. All the more so for rural areas.
I can walk to a gas station, bank, tax office, dentist office, and pizzeria; but crossing one main road is required. Nothing directly accessible from my actual neighborhood, though. Unless you count businesses that operate from home, which gets into some interesting territory.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 29, 2019, 12:55:17 PM
Note that I said "Main road", with a county road as an example. Sounds like these city roads are your main roads, so anything that requires going on them would be leaving your neighborhood.
Yeah where this whole thing seems weird to me is this assumption that anything which is a "main road" automatically forms the boundary of a neighborhood. That's not how that works. Main roads are very often smack dab at the center of neighborhoods.
Quote from: webny99 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:05 PM
This thread is tailored to an urban lifestyle. I can't think of many suburban neighborhoods that have direct access to any businesses at all, much less multiple, or a whole bunch. All the more so for rural areas.
I can walk to a gas station, bank, tax office, dentist office, and pizzeria; but crossing one main road is required. Nothing directly accessible from my actual neighborhood, though. Unless you count businesses that operate from home, which gets into some interesting territory.
I live in an exurb and can actually walk to quite a few retailers and services without crossing a major street (anything wider than 2 lanes total). I have a dentist, two banks, several fast food and fast casual restaurants, a gym, a sports goods retailer, an espresso stand, an out-of-network medical clinic, and a cell phone shop all within a five-minute walk.
But yes, all these things would be easier to find in an urban neighborhood or a properly planned community. All the more reason to support proper urbanism.
None, I'm in the suburbs and everything is along main roads
Quote from: webny99 on October 30, 2019, 08:21:05 PM
This thread is tailored to an urban lifestyle. I can't think of many suburban neighborhoods that have direct access to any businesses at all, much less multiple, or a whole bunch. All the more so for rural areas.
I can walk to a gas station, bank, tax office, dentist office, and pizzeria; but crossing one main road is required. Nothing directly accessible from my actual neighborhood, though. Unless you count businesses that operate from home, which gets into some interesting territory.
I live in a traditional suburb and have access within walking distance as I described. Suburbs can have quite mixed zoning and there can be residential zones surprisingly close to malls and the like.
Assuming the 2 lane 25-30 MPH collector streets in my neighborhood are on the table, and it's just the 4 lane 35 MPH arterials that are banned (including crossing them), then I can get to an Albertsons (supermarket), 2 different gas stations, like 6 hotels (not joking, that's what you get living near an airport), and an Applebees.
I can access about ⅓ mile of businesses (mostly non-chains) on the numbered route near my house. The parking lots are accessible from the side roads without having to get on the numbered route.
There used to be a decently-sized local grocery store I could walk to but it moved a few years ago, and in it's place is a Planet Fitness (not the only Price-Cutter PF has taken over here).
If you include places directly along neighborhood boundaries, There are a few good local Italian & Mexican options, as well as the second largest Bass Pro Shops (The BPS as the Memphis is bigger, though IDK if that includes the new Wonders of Wildlife aquarium or not).
My neighborhood is a small subdivision with no businesses or parks, located in an unincorporated area about two miles north of the city proper; one way in and one way out (Google maps shows two, but in reality the other road is for high clearance vehicles). By car I can't leave my neighborhood without getting onto a main road.
On foot, I can hike down the hill, and walk across the Gila River (safely passable by foot 90% of the time), and access all of the businesses north of Highway 70 and east of 8th Ave: A Pepsi bottling Plant, an Arizona@Work Center, VA Health Clinic, bowling alley, movie theater, three hotels, furniture store, domino's pizza, and a smattering of other businesses.
Edit: to describe location of my neighborhood.
My neighborhood is sandwiched between Powers Ferry and I-75; I can't think of a single business I can get to without leaving the neighborhood as defined.
For me, this question hinges on whether the definition of "main road" (not to be crossed) includes surface arterials without numbered route status. There are essentially no numbered routes left in Wichita that are not freeways or expressways, and I live in the same freeway "box" that has City Hall, the county and federal courthouses, the main public library, multiple supermarkets, and a shopping mall. If "main road" is considered to include arterials, however, then within my own subdivision I have access only to a McDonald's and a liquor store. (A supermarket is within walking distance but entails crossing one of the arterials.)
For me: I have
A soon-to-be-former farm
A neighborhood hardware store
A vacant former bank branch
A major aerospace engineering company
A ConnDOT facility
A tiny state park
A boat launch
A fire station
An industrial park (including a Walgreens regional distribution facility, a Pepsi bottling facility, and various Fed Ex operations).
At the end of my street, but across a numbered highway, is the best BBQ place in the area (doesn't say much).
And across a different highway/freeway, but effectively in my back yard...an international airport.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on November 04, 2019, 08:53:53 PM
[...]
At the end of my street, but across a numbered highway, is the best BBQ place in the area (doesn't say much).
[...]
Having just moved from CT to Missouri...I never knew what I was missing when it comes to BBQ.
I live 2 blocks from a major shopping mall with 22 restaurants, 37 fast food places, etc. beyond that you can find tons more north or west. Our part of town is surrounded by freeways north and east but you can get to a lot of places easily. getting across Austin though is awful.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 04, 2019, 08:37:26 PM
For me, this question hinges on whether the definition of "main road" (not to be crossed) includes surface arterials without numbered route status. There are essentially no numbered routes left in Wichita that are not freeways or expressways, and I live in the same freeway "box" that has City Hall, the county and federal courthouses, the main public library, multiple supermarkets, and a shopping mall. If "main road" is considered to include arterials, however, then within my own subdivision I have access only to a McDonald's and a liquor store. (A supermarket is within walking distance but entails crossing one of the arterials.)
Think of a main road as one with lines on it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 04, 2019, 10:47:50 PMThink of a main road as one with lines on it.
Thanks. This may be worth adding to the original post.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 04, 2019, 10:47:50 PMThink of a main road as one with lines on it.
What about something like this (https://goo.gl/maps/AqxSwkk65DkyC5px9)?