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Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695) complete collapse after large ship hits it

Started by rickmastfan67, March 26, 2024, 04:09:30 AM

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Moose

Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 31, 2024, 02:32:50 PMThe Request for Proposals was released by MDTA today:

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-news-releases/mdta-invites-proposals-rebuilding-francis-scott-key-bridge

QuoteKey Bridge Rebuild Milestone Dates:

Proposals Due: Monday, June 24, 2024

Project Team Selection: Mid-to-late Summer 2024

Project Completion: Fall 2028 

Well, it will likely be a cable stayed.. but lets build a nice "showpiece" bridge here, in my mind. It would be a cabled stayed bridge, with the cables illuminated in such a way that it looks Red White and Blue..


Henry

If this report is to be believed, our suspicions have been confirmed that the new bridge will be built on the exact same alignment as the old one, which would mean demolishing the remainder of the old bridge. And that would make the most sense, what with the toll plaza being replaced by a gantry only five years ago, and (as I said it before) there's no reason to move said gantry now.

Quote from: Moose on June 04, 2024, 05:51:36 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 31, 2024, 02:32:50 PMThe Request for Proposals was released by MDTA today:

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-news-releases/mdta-invites-proposals-rebuilding-francis-scott-key-bridge

QuoteKey Bridge Rebuild Milestone Dates:

Proposals Due: Monday, June 24, 2024

Project Team Selection: Mid-to-late Summer 2024

Project Completion: Fall 2028 

Well, it will likely be a cable stayed.. but lets build a nice "showpiece" bridge here, in my mind. It would be a cabled stayed bridge, with the cables illuminated in such a way that it looks Red White and Blue..
Also, we could use orange for baseball season and purple for football season, and maybe red and green for the Christmas holiday season. FWIW, the new showpiece bridge should complement the skyline as well as the old one did, if not better than that.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Joe The Dragon

Quote from: Henry on June 11, 2024, 03:19:07 PMIf this report is to be believed, our suspicions have been confirmed that the new bridge will be built on the exact same alignment as the old one, which would mean demolishing the remainder of the old bridge. And that would make the most sense, what with the toll plaza being replaced by a gantry only five years ago, and (as I said it before) there's no reason to move said gantry now.

Quote from: Moose on June 04, 2024, 05:51:36 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 31, 2024, 02:32:50 PMThe Request for Proposals was released by MDTA today:

https://mdta.maryland.gov/blog-category/mdta-news-releases/mdta-invites-proposals-rebuilding-francis-scott-key-bridge

QuoteKey Bridge Rebuild Milestone Dates:

Proposals Due: Monday, June 24, 2024

Project Team Selection: Mid-to-late Summer 2024

Project Completion: Fall 2028 

Well, it will likely be a cable stayed.. but lets build a nice "showpiece" bridge here, in my mind. It would be a cabled stayed bridge, with the cables illuminated in such a way that it looks Red White and Blue..
Also, we could use orange for baseball season and purple for football season, and maybe red and green for the Christmas holiday season. FWIW, the new showpiece bridge should complement the skyline as well as the old one did, if not better than that.
but the old one is 2 lanes with no shoulders so that may force them to rebuild the tolls also the turn around tolling can be changed? set up to give the discount to all?

jmacswimmer

Earlier today the Dali departed Baltimore for Norfolk and cleared the Bay Bridge around 11:15, with traffic held as it passed underneath:

https://x.com/TheMDTA/status/1805262722273042745

Meanwhile the Broening Highway turnaround will now remain untolled through late August, with MDTA to "reassess the status" again at that point. Looks like google maps finally updated at some point to show I-695 as reopened leading up to the turnaround.

https://x.com/TheMDTA/status/1805295673593446413
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bluecountry

QuoteProposals for the rebuild of the Francis Scott Key Bridge are due Monday. But the Baltimore Transit Equity Coalition (BTEC) and its allies "urgently request the Maryland Transportation Authority (MDTA) to accept designs that include light rail transit for the rebuilding," in an official statement released Thursday.

In their statement, advocates argue that a light rail option would increase work opportunities and improve air quality while reducing commute times. "The mantra in the industry is, development follows rail," said Samuel Jordan, president of BTEC. "So why shouldn't we extend that opportunity for expanded development that's going to occur, and is occurring in East Baltimore County, across the bridge?" he asked.

Jordan believes adding light rail will help people in underserved neighborhoods in South Baltimore without cars get to work. They could ride to places like Tradepoint Atlantic in Sparrows Point where companies like Amazon, UPS and FedEx are located.

https://www.wypr.org/wypr-news/2024-06-21/baltimore-transit-coalition-urges-delay-in-key-bridge-rebuild-proposals

Sonic99

Quote from: bluecountry on June 24, 2024, 06:24:46 PM
QuoteProposals for the rebuild of the Francis Scott Key Bridge are due Monday. But the Baltimore Transit Equity Coalition (BTEC) and its allies "urgently request the Maryland Transportation Authority (MDTA) to accept designs that include light rail transit for the rebuilding," in an official statement released Thursday.

In their statement, advocates argue that a light rail option would increase work opportunities and improve air quality while reducing commute times. "The mantra in the industry is, development follows rail," said Samuel Jordan, president of BTEC. "So why shouldn't we extend that opportunity for expanded development that's going to occur, and is occurring in East Baltimore County, across the bridge?" he asked.

Jordan believes adding light rail will help people in underserved neighborhoods in South Baltimore without cars get to work. They could ride to places like Tradepoint Atlantic in Sparrows Point where companies like Amazon, UPS and FedEx are located.

https://www.wypr.org/wypr-news/2024-06-21/baltimore-transit-coalition-urges-delay-in-key-bridge-rebuild-proposals

I know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!

bluecountry

Quote from: Sonic99 on June 25, 2024, 09:38:57 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 24, 2024, 06:24:46 PM
QuoteProposals for the rebuild of the Francis Scott Key Bridge are due Monday. But the Baltimore Transit Equity Coalition (BTEC) and its allies "urgently request the Maryland Transportation Authority (MDTA) to accept designs that include light rail transit for the rebuilding," in an official statement released Thursday.

In their statement, advocates argue that a light rail option would increase work opportunities and improve air quality while reducing commute times. "The mantra in the industry is, development follows rail," said Samuel Jordan, president of BTEC. "So why shouldn't we extend that opportunity for expanded development that's going to occur, and is occurring in East Baltimore County, across the bridge?" he asked.

Jordan believes adding light rail will help people in underserved neighborhoods in South Baltimore without cars get to work. They could ride to places like Tradepoint Atlantic in Sparrows Point where companies like Amazon, UPS and FedEx are located.

https://www.wypr.org/wypr-news/2024-06-21/baltimore-transit-coalition-urges-delay-in-key-bridge-rebuild-proposals

I know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.
Agreed, like the Tappan Zee Bridge.

mrsman

Quote from: bluecountry on June 27, 2024, 05:34:41 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on June 25, 2024, 09:38:57 PM
Quote from: bluecountry on June 24, 2024, 06:24:46 PM
QuoteProposals for the rebuild of the Francis Scott Key Bridge are due Monday. But the Baltimore Transit Equity Coalition (BTEC) and its allies "urgently request the Maryland Transportation Authority (MDTA) to accept designs that include light rail transit for the rebuilding," in an official statement released Thursday.

In their statement, advocates argue that a light rail option would increase work opportunities and improve air quality while reducing commute times. "The mantra in the industry is, development follows rail," said Samuel Jordan, president of BTEC. "So why shouldn't we extend that opportunity for expanded development that's going to occur, and is occurring in East Baltimore County, across the bridge?" he asked.

Jordan believes adding light rail will help people in underserved neighborhoods in South Baltimore without cars get to work. They could ride to places like Tradepoint Atlantic in Sparrows Point where companies like Amazon, UPS and FedEx are located.

https://www.wypr.org/wypr-news/2024-06-21/baltimore-transit-coalition-urges-delay-in-key-bridge-rebuild-proposals

I know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.
Agreed, like the Tappan Zee Bridge.

Is there need or demand?  I can't think of a good transit destination along this corridor as this is a bypass of Downtown Baltimore not a connector to Downtown Baltimore.  Is there a demand for a connection of some of the freight railways?

At least the Tappan Zee can be used as a way to get to Manhattan.  Rockland County commuters can cross the bridge and then take a train down the Hudson Line to Grand Central.  A rail spur of the Hudson line along the Tappan Zee can serve NYC commuters who live in this area, and there are a significant number of NYC commuters in Rockland county and a spur can encourage them to use transit instead of driving.  But I don't see a similar market in Balto.

TheOneKEA

Passive provision for heavy freight workings across the Outer Harbor would theoretically allow CSX to extend their existing network of sidings, running lines and yards in Curtis Bay to the replacement bridge and then across to Sparrows Point. On the opposite side, the Canton Railroad could theoretically do the same, and provide an alternate means for either company to dispatch traffic across the city to either reach customers on the other side, or to bypass the Baltimore Belt Line and the Howard Street Tunnel.

Light rail provision would be a waste of effort in my opinion. While Sparrows Point itself could serve as a terminus for a light rail line, in my opinion all of the routes for such a line would be to the north and west, not to the south and southeast. Unless the power plants southeast of the bridge site are redeveloped in the exact same way that Sparrows Point was redeveloped and new traffic flows across the replacement bridge open up, I can't see any reason to provide light rail on the bridge. Heavy freight, as described above, would theoretically be far more useful.

davewiecking

Quote from: Sonic99 on June 25, 2024, 09:38:57 PMI know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.

Mainline RR grades are rarely above 1%. Anything over 2% is pretty extreme. Clearance under the old bridge was 185', and it's likely the new one will be a bit higher. Seems an approach of 3-4 miles on each side would be necessary, which would run from about MD-10 to about the existing railroad near MD-151.

If faulty, someone please correct my math or assumptions.

bwana39

Quote from: davewiecking on June 30, 2024, 07:25:11 PMMainline RR grades are rarely above 1%. Anything over 2% is pretty extreme. Clearance under the old bridge was 185', and it's likely the new one will be a bit higher. Seems an approach of 3-4 miles on each side would be necessary, which would run from about MD-10 to about the existing railroad near MD-151.

If faulty, someone please correct my math or assumptions.

I agree that this is prohibitive for HEAVY Rail, but Light rail could be a little more aggressive in its grade.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Henry

Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

jeffandnicole

Quote from: davewiecking on June 30, 2024, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on June 25, 2024, 09:38:57 PMI know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.

Mainline RR grades are rarely above 1%. Anything over 2% is pretty extreme. Clearance under the old bridge was 185', and it's likely the new one will be a bit higher. Seems an approach of 3-4 miles on each side would be necessary, which would run from about MD-10 to about the existing railroad near MD-151.

If faulty, someone please correct my math or assumptions.

The clearance should be about the same.  In order to get to this bridge, ships would need to go under the Chesapeake Bay Bridges (186 feet) or thru the Chesapeake-Delaware Canal (a few bridges offer 135 feet of clearance).  Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

MASTERNC

The scary thing is the local newspaper has personally observed hazmat trucks going through the tunnels rather than detouring around the Beltway.  Supposedly enforcement has not increased with the Key Bridge being out (and a staff shortage is likely the cause).  Hoping we don't have another disaster on our hands.

ixnay

Quote from: MASTERNC on July 12, 2024, 08:10:31 AMThe scary thing is the local newspaper has personally observed hazmat trucks going through the tunnels rather than detouring around the Beltway.  Supposedly enforcement has not increased with the Key Bridge being out (and a staff shortage is likely the cause).  Hoping we don't have another disaster on our hands.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-hazmat-trucks-tunnels-V3MAXLPOWFDKDH6PR3R4IUTQZY/

plain

Quote from: ixnay on July 12, 2024, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 12, 2024, 08:10:31 AMThe scary thing is the local newspaper has personally observed hazmat trucks going through the tunnels rather than detouring around the Beltway.  Supposedly enforcement has not increased with the Key Bridge being out (and a staff shortage is likely the cause).  Hoping we don't have another disaster on our hands.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-hazmat-trucks-tunnels-V3MAXLPOWFDKDH6PR3R4IUTQZY/

Yikes!!
Newark born, Richmond bred

MikeTheActuary

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 12, 2024, 12:15:30 AMThe clearance should be about the same.  In order to get to this bridge, ships would need to go under the Chesapeake Bay Bridges (186 feet) or thru the Chesapeake-Delaware Canal (a few bridges offer 135 feet of clearance).  Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

The question to ask here is: how high will the US50 crossing be when the Key Bridge replacement approaches EOL?

If they build the Key Bridge replacement (I assume they'll find some politician to name it after) higher, then when it comes time to replace the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, they will have the opportunity to build it higher, thereby making the Port of Baltimore accessible to more ships.

I'll admit that I believe the Chesapeake Bay Bridges have a projected lifespan out beyond the middle of the century, but I remember MDOT projecting that traffic will regularly hit LOS E or F long before then.

bwana39

Quote from: plain on July 12, 2024, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: ixnay on July 12, 2024, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 12, 2024, 08:10:31 AMThe scary thing is the local newspaper has personally observed hazmat trucks going through the tunnels rather than detouring around the Beltway.  Supposedly enforcement has not increased with the Key Bridge being out (and a staff shortage is likely the cause).  Hoping we don't have another disaster on our hands.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-hazmat-trucks-tunnels-V3MAXLPOWFDKDH6PR3R4IUTQZY/

Yikes!!

Some of them are empty. Some are carrying non-prohibited loads, Some are ready to go boom!
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Rothman

Quote from: bwana39 on July 13, 2024, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: plain on July 12, 2024, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: ixnay on July 12, 2024, 12:48:16 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 12, 2024, 08:10:31 AMThe scary thing is the local newspaper has personally observed hazmat trucks going through the tunnels rather than detouring around the Beltway.  Supposedly enforcement has not increased with the Key Bridge being out (and a staff shortage is likely the cause).  Hoping we don't have another disaster on our hands.

https://www.thebaltimorebanner.com/community/transportation/francis-scott-key-bridge-collapse-hazmat-trucks-tunnels-V3MAXLPOWFDKDH6PR3R4IUTQZY/

Yikes!!

Some of them are empty. Some are carrying non-prohibited loads, Some are ready to go boom!

Huh.  Never thought about empty trucks that usually transport HAZMATS.  Shouldn't the placards come off in those cases?  I'd imagine they'd stay on out of laziness/lack of time, though.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Rothman on July 13, 2024, 01:19:42 PMHuh.  Never thought about empty trucks that usually transport HAZMATS.  Shouldn't the placards come off in those cases?  I'd imagine they'd stay on out of laziness/lack of time, though.

I checked, and it seems 49 CFR § 172.504 allows a hazmat carrier not to display placards if it is carrying no more than 1000 lb of the hazmat, or only the residue thereof in empty non-bulk packages.  This implies there is no actual requirement to remove any placards already displayed when either condition applies, so I suspect the drivers of the empty vehicles are counting on not having their collars felt.
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1995hoo

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 12, 2024, 12:15:30 AM.... Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

The Bay Bridge twin span is in Maryland, not Delaware, so I sincerely hope Delaware doesn't plan to knock it down.
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jeffandnicole

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 13, 2024, 05:29:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 12, 2024, 12:15:30 AM.... Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

The Bay Bridge twin span is in Maryland, not Delaware, so I sincerely hope Delaware doesn't plan to knock it down.

Ugh. I'm finding I'm making more and more of those typos lately. I gotta reread what I write - twice - before I send it.

mrsman

In another thread, it was mentioned that there are a significant number of people who oppose rebuilding the Key Bridge.  Is this at all true?  Are these people with some sort of power (legislature, government, etc.) or just some cranks who oppose spending. 

I know that it will probably take a few years to rebuild, but it seems like there is a full commitment to rebuild, even if there is some question as to whether the Feds will cover the tab.

Henry

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 13, 2024, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 13, 2024, 05:29:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 12, 2024, 12:15:30 AM.... Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

The Bay Bridge twin span is in Maryland, not Delaware, so I sincerely hope Delaware doesn't plan to knock it down.

Ugh. I'm finding I'm making more and more of those typos lately. I gotta reread what I write - twice - before I send it.
Besides, the twin span you're probably thinking about is the Delaware Memorial Bridge.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

Sonic99

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 12, 2024, 12:15:30 AM
Quote from: davewiecking on June 30, 2024, 07:25:11 PM
Quote from: Sonic99 on June 25, 2024, 09:38:57 PMI know we're primarily a road-based community and "omg replace all the roads with rail" people can get silly, but I honestly don't think it's a terrible idea to have some rail space on a new bridge. This new one will likely be used for 50-75 years, so not a bad idea to build in future expandability for something like a rail line in that area.

Mainline RR grades are rarely above 1%. Anything over 2% is pretty extreme. Clearance under the old bridge was 185', and it's likely the new one will be a bit higher. Seems an approach of 3-4 miles on each side would be necessary, which would run from about MD-10 to about the existing railroad near MD-151.

If faulty, someone please correct my math or assumptions.

The clearance should be about the same.  In order to get to this bridge, ships would need to go under the Chesapeake Bay Bridges (186 feet) or thru the Chesapeake-Delaware Canal (a few bridges offer 135 feet of clearance).  Since it's unlikely Delaware has any plans to knock down both Chesapeake Bay Bridges or build a tunnel here, there's no reason to offer more than 186 feet of clearance.

They would be silly to constrain themselves for the future by only building to the existing limitation of other bridges which are significantly older. They have the opportunity to build the next bridge to last 75-100 years. I would absolutely think they'll go with a higher clearance to anticipate a Bay Bridge replacement in the next 20-30 years. And perhaps, if they indeed build this one taller, it could encourage MDOT to look into a replacement with higher limits sooner than later. "Hey, the Port is ready to handle the next upgrade in size of ships and this is the only thing holding that back" would be an argument that could be had if they rebuild Key to be 200-220+ ft clearance.
If you used to draw freeways on your homework and got reprimanded by your Senior English teacher for doing so, you might be a road geek!



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