Minor things that bother you

[SEWIGuy]

What do you have against supermarket loyalty programs?

They undermine price transparency.  I prefer to shop by value as measured against net price, and loyalty programs--especially ones based on points that do not have an explicit and easily found dollars-and-cents value--introduce an added layer of calculation.

For similar reasons, I support legislation that prohibits perpetual sales and requires display of unit cost for every price level accessible to the customer.  (With digital coupons, it is not uncommon to see three price levels:  without loyalty card, with card but without digital coupon, and with card and digital coupon.)

Anyway, I am with you until the last point. Why should the store have to redeem the card for cash?

Vdeane mentions one of the reasons--the value of the card should not be tied to the issuing establishment in any way.  Another is that a redemption requirement serves as a check on loyalty programs in general.  If it makes such a program uneconomic for a store to pursue, that is a benefit to the consumer.

I have read that one of the rationales for giving a gift certificate instead of an equal amount in cash is to ensure that the money is spent on items the store actually sells.  While I understand the appeal of this in the case of, e.g., a black-sheep relative who might otherwise spend cash on street drugs, the reality in economic terms is that buying a gift certificate amounts to setting some of the money on fire since the loss of convertibility equates to a reduction in the face value.

So because someone bought a bad gift, a card to "a place they aren't interested in shopping at", the store is now responsible for making it right?  People get bad gifts for one another all of the time.

Yes, absolutely.  Having to refund unwanted merchandise is a normal commercial risk.

But it is not required that returned merchandise be returned for cash. (It's almost always in-store credit - which is basically a gift card.) So I have no idea why gift cards should be. I mean these are gifts.

And I think you are way overthinking why people get gift cards for others. I don't purchase them because I am afraid that the recipient would buy drugs with the cash. I think they merely give the impression that someone put SOME thought into the purchase.

And I think you also overthink the loyalty programs. They're just nice things to get people to shop somewhere more regularly.

[kkt]

If I had my druthers, merchants would not be allowed to sell anything with a deferred-redemption component unless the full value of said component were kept available to the customer without expiration.  This would mean:

*  Store gift cards and gift certificates would never expire.

*  Stored-value debit cards would never expire.  (I believe federal regulations already require this.)

*  Loyalty points would remain permanently available to the customer until used up.

*  At any point, the customer could demand the full face value in cash.

If this forced supermarket chains to phase out loyalty programs, I would not shed a tear.

Okay, but what does "never expire" really mean?  Businesses don't stay around forever.  They don't have any way of knowing how to get ahold of people who have gift cards they issued, and I wouldn't want to be on their mailing list if they did.

[J N Winkler]

But it is not required that returned merchandise be returned for cash. (It's almost always in-store credit - which is basically a gift card.) So I have no idea why gift cards should be. I mean these are gifts.

That has not been my experience.  On the few occasions I have returned things for a refund, I have typically received a chargeback on the card I used to pay.  I can't remember the last time I was asked to settle for in-store credit or a voucher that I could spend only at the business concerned.

Okay, but what does "never expire" really mean?  Businesses don't stay around forever.  They don't have any way of knowing how to get ahold of people who have gift cards they issued, and I wouldn't want to be on their mailing list if they did.

"Never expires" means that the value of the card (or other deferred-redemption instrument) would remain a liability against the business indefinitely.  Realistically, I think it would have to be dischargeable in bankruptcy, even if this meant that customers would have to settle for pennies on the dollar.

In cases where small businesses local to me have simply stopped trading, they have often put out the word through local newspaper coverage that people who hold gift certificates from them should get in touch.  I don't know if the liability persists if it is not cleared before liquidation finishes.

One key benefit of not allowing gift certificates to expire, and requiring them to be redeemable for cash at full face value, is preventing abuses such as a large blue-chip merchandiser like Amazon declaring them void after one year, as I have had happen to me.  There is no realistic prospect of Amazon declaring bankruptcy over such a short time horizon, and a customer should not be pressured to buy something just to redeem value that would otherwise be lost.

[SEWIGuy]

But it is not required that returned merchandise be returned for cash. (It's almost always in-store credit - which is basically a gift card.) So I have no idea why gift cards should be. I mean these are gifts.

That has not been my experience.  On the few occasions I have returned things for a refund, I have typically received a chargeback on the card I used to pay.  I can't remember the last time I was asked to settle for in-store credit or a voucher that I could spend only at the business concerned.

If YOU purchased yes. But if you are given a gift with a gift receipt, it's almost always returned only for in store credit.

[vdeane]

If YOU purchased yes. But if you are given a gift with a gift receipt, it's almost always returned only for in store credit.

Well, that's a weird double standard.

[thenetwork]

A couple money-related ones.  One is the short expiration cycle for rewards points at Price Chopper/Market32/Market Bistro.  The checkouts only give the option to use them when you have more than 500.  You can use them before, but have to specifically request it, so I usually wait until then unless I see that some are expiring.  Well, I somehow missed the thing on my receipts mentioning points expiring (either it's gotten less obvious or I got so used to hitting 500 before this happens that I've stopped checking as vigorously as I should) until I finished checking out today, and now I have a few points expiring by the end of the month with no way to use them in time.

Well, yeah, the purpose of loyalty points is not to give you stuff for free, it's to keep you coming back.  Putting limitations in the way of redeeming the points keeps the program from costing them too much.

On that note.  I hate when loyalty point programs take their good sweet time in merging/converting loyalty points when companies merge or when one acquires another.

1) Speedway speedy points can be used at/for 7-Eleven deals IF the 7-11 was a Speedway...but at last check, the 7-rewards still cannot be redeemed at Speedway/7 Eleven stores.

2) Same with loyalty Kum and Go reward points at Maveriks and vice versa (at last check), although the offers and deals are now exactly the same as of a few weeks ago. Our K&G stores will soon get the rebranding soon area so it may happen at that time (???)

Will they ever merge the accounts?  Who knows.

[jeffandnicole]

If I had my druthers, merchants would not be allowed to sell anything with a deferred-redemption component unless the full value of said component were kept available to the customer without expiration.  This would mean:

*  Store gift cards and gift certificates would never expire.

Some states do prohibit this.

If this forced supermarket chains to phase out loyalty programs, I would not shed a tear.

Businesses encourage people to shop there.  An extension of this would be hotel, airline & casino loyalty programs.  All encourage customers to maintain a relationship with that company. Customers save money and get benefits; Businesses earn money.  It's a win for both.  The only people that think it's a loss are those that think it would stop junk mail or tracking of their purchases.  And since no one is required to have a card at most stores (other than specific instances such as Costco, Sam's Club, etc), you don't need it, so it's no harm to you if others maintain accounts with loyalty cards.

But it is not required that returned merchandise be returned for cash. (It's almost always in-store credit - which is basically a gift card.) So I have no idea why gift cards should be. I mean these are gifts.

That has not been my experience.  On the few occasions I have returned things for a refund, I have typically received a chargeback on the card I used to pay.  I can't remember the last time I was asked to settle for in-store credit or a voucher that I could spend only at the business concerned.

You received a credit because the business was able to identify the method of payment thru your credit card.

BTW - you do realize that when you used the credit card, the business tracked your purchasing anyway, right?  The only difference was they didn't have all the info to send you tailored advertising or discounts.  So, they got all your money and you received no benefit.

Okay, but what does "never expire" really mean?  Businesses don't stay around forever.  They don't have any way of knowing how to get ahold of people who have gift cards they issued, and I wouldn't want to be on their mailing list if they did.

"Never expires" means that the value of the card (or other deferred-redemption instrument) would remain a liability against the business indefinitely.  Realistically, I think it would have to be dischargeable in bankruptcy, even if this meant that customers would have to settle for pennies on the dollar.

Legally, it already is.  But personal debts are way down the list of how companies are required to settle debts when they go bankrupt. If a bankrupt company was able to settle all other corporate debts first at 100%, then consumers would be in line to obtain money for their debts, including gift cards. 

Being a company is going bankrupt due to being short of cash, that is extremely unlikely to ever happen.

[SSOWorld]

See the Menards "11% Off Everything"

To get the 11% back, you have to send a rebate receipt in the mail
The 11% comes back as in-store credit

the 11% back gets you back to the MSRP.

Many of the loyalty programs do "sales" by marking up the price and having loyalty program use be required to bring it back down.

[wanderer2575]

Many of the loyalty programs do "sales" by marking up the price and having loyalty program use be required to bring it back down.

Did I hear someone mention Black Friday sales?

[SEWIGuy]

If YOU purchased yes. But if you are given a gift with a gift receipt, it's almost always returned only for in store credit.

Well, that's a weird double standard.

It's not really a double standard. It's different standards for different types of purchases.

[Big John]

Many of the loyalty programs do "sales" by marking up the price and having loyalty program use be required to bring it back down.

Did I hear someone mention Black Friday sales?

Do any countries use both the $ symbol and a comma for a decimal point?

[1995hoo]

Do any countries use both the $ symbol and a comma for a decimal point?

Portions of Canada, for one (French-speaking areas). But normally in French the dollar sign goes after the amount, not before.

[formulanone]

This is why I don't bother with too many shopping/restaurant loyalty programs; I enjoy too much variety to get any benefit out of them before the points expire; but still left with 30 emails a months from each of these programs. I'll join some of the supermarket programs so I can enjoy less faked-out pricing, but my chances of getting back to those same brands are maybe 1-2 times a year.

Airline and hotel points, that's another matter; some let you keep the points for the life of the account (though they find ways to devalue them naturally though inflation and manipulation), some do not, but they're pretty good about finding you some way to convert them into digital downloads, small gifts, and other doodads. Avis rental points are the worst to use, because you still pay for 25-30% of your rental.

Since there's always a lot of gift card theft and fraud, I doubt any stores are going to allow quick conversion to cash; although I personally feel they should permit trivial cash-conversion amounts; say, under a dollar. It's annoying to try to keep track of gift card purchases at places where they must know the exact amount and then hope the key it in properly so you can combine different methods of payment.

This reminds me, the credit card-backed gift cards are the absolute worst of these. My kids get these from relatives and they're a booger to use if you don't call in advance to active it right away, but not too soon that the funds start to evaporate. They're old enough now to understand why we use those for groceries and give them "checkbook balances" instead (it just us using our credit cards), for when they want to buy gifts for themselves. We also feel the latter shows them the idea of available credit and debits while trying to maintain something like a checking ledger.

[hotdogPi]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

[wanderer2575]

If YOU purchased yes. But if you are given a gift with a gift receipt, it's almost always returned only for in store credit.

Well, that's a weird double standard.

Not really.  Stores would prefer not refunding cash under any circumstances.  They figure they're more justified in taking that position with a gift return because you're not the one who laid out the cash in the first place.  I wonder if it also has something to do with affecting the store's credit card fees, which would be a reason that if the store refunds back to a credit card they require that it be the same card used for the purchase (so you can't game a card issuer's loyalty points program by purchasing a ton of stuff with the loyalty program card and then returning it and getting the refund in another manner).

[tchafe1978]

See the Menards "11% Off Everything"

To get the 11% back, you have to send a rebate receipt in the mail
The 11% comes back as in-store credit

the 11% back gets you back to the MSRP.

Many of the loyalty programs do "sales" by marking up the price and having loyalty program use be required to bring it back down.

I can remember back to when Menards would actually send you a check for the rebate amount. But at the time the rebates were only tied to specific items, not an across the board 11% off everything. My dad would let me fill out the rebate and then keep the money for myself. But the checks would be for like 3 or 4, maybe 5 dollars. To a 10 year old kid, that seemed cool. I got 5 bucks I can spend on soda and candy! Now the merchandise credit check just sits around until I remember to take it with me the next time I go to Menards.

[Rothman]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

Oof.  That's a lot of average food to swallow down.

[kkt]

Loyalty programs:  I do the Safeway-Albertson's program with Chevron gas.  Spending $50 or so on groceries gets a 10% discount on gas.  They don't have my address or email address so they don't spam me with special offers and I don't have to do anything to remind them to give me a discount.

Also my credit card accumulates points that can be used for flights.  A long flight for two every couple of years, and they don't expire.

[formulanone]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

Oof.  That's a lot of average food to swallow down.

Pretty sure hotdogger's on a college student's budget. My friends and I used to hit up the senior citizens' early-bird specials because they never enforced an age limit.

[Rothman]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

Oof.  That's a lot of average food to swallow down.

Pretty sure hotdogger's on a college student's budget. My friends and I used to hit up the senior citizens' early-bird specials because they never enforced an age limit.

I suppose there's something to underpaying for a personal pizza that has a 50/50 chance of making you vomit.

[Scott5114]

I generally avoid spending any money at businesses with loyalty programs. I judge prices based on what's posted on the shelf. Even if there's some sort of secret discount you get for having a secret card for secret people, why should I bother with mathing all of that out when I can just go to WinCo or whatever and get a decent enough price without all of the complications?

[formulanone]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

Oof.  That's a lot of average food to swallow down.

Pretty sure hotdogger's on a college student's budget. My friends and I used to hit up the senior citizens' early-bird specials because they never enforced an age limit.

I suppose there's something to underpaying for a personal pizza that has a 50/50 chance of making you vomit.

I think maybe 2-3 restaurant/fast food visits in ~50 years have literally made me that sick.

[Rothman]

Brazil appears to use both $ and a comma.


I've gotten good use out of restaurant loyalty programs.

UNO: Essentially 1 in 16 back. When you get your $10 reward for spending $160, you have two months to use it. There's also the very occasional free entree or $10 off via email.

Outback Steakhouse: Essentially 1 in 14 back. Unfinished points do expire unlike UNO, but I believe you have either 3 or 6 months, and the threshold for the $5 reward is only $70. The only Outback close to me closed, though.

99 Restaurant: every 3 visits, you get a random offer that lasts one month. That said, they also send various coupons in emails that are $5 off $25, a $7 burger on Mondays, or similar, and sometimes they're better than the 3-visit coupons.

Bertucci's: one of the two best ones. No points. Instead, there are quite frequent coupons that are usually $10 or 15 off $30, $20 off $40 or $50, or $25 off $50. Yes, that's half off. (They also have free item with purchase on National Whatever Day, which happens several times per year.)

IHOP: the other really good one. For each $5 spent, you get 1 PanCoin, and anything that's not a full $5 is tracked as a partial one, so two $8 purchases will get you three, not two. Rather than a fixed reward, you can get three pancakes or five pancakes for 3 or 5 PanCoins, a kid's meal for 8, a burger for 12, or other things that are less efficient. They also have the occasional "buy this get 5 or 10 additional PanCoins". As each PanCoin is worth about a dollar if you do it correctly, this is essentially 20% back or more if you try to get the bonus ones. In addition, there's a 3 PM - 9 PM menu that's $6 or $8 depending on the item, so you get cheap meals while earning the PanCoins, and if it's lunchtime, you just use them on something instead of paying full price for a meal.

Oof.  That's a lot of average food to swallow down.

Pretty sure hotdogger's on a college student's budget. My friends and I used to hit up the senior citizens' early-bird specials because they never enforced an age limit.

I suppose there's something to underpaying for a personal pizza that has a 50/50 chance of making you vomit.

I think maybe 2-3 restaurant/fast food visits in ~50 years have literally made me that sick.

I was exaggerating.  Surprised to hear it actually happened to you thrice.  Yuk.

[roadman65]

If you have spend money to save money than no money saved.  I know some people who register and buy things just so they can feel the rewards of something or save less than they spend to save the less. Then brag about saving.

People don't see the light or add figures up. Even John Tesh on his radio program said that programs that get you to save money are not a savings because you are purchasing things you wouldn't of purchased had there had been no discount program in the first place.

Example is my dad once bought a tuxedo for me despite I was only going to wear it once.  As many are aware, if you only wear a monkey suit once it pays to rent as the cost is cheaper of the sale price of owning a suit. Only if you are wearing it twice or more, than you purchase because two rental charges are more than the price of the tux. Needless to say I wore it once and never wore it again and haven't the need to wear one since 2005 the only time I wore the suit when the Knights of Columbus had a tuxedo mandate to receive the Fourth Degree. So I needed to wear one as at the time I thought it would be cool to take part in.

Of course my father lost the difference between the rental cost and the purchase price all because he thought it would be neat for me to own one. Unfortunately we all have the feeling of owning something that we don't really need to please our egos.

That is what loyalty or rewards encourage.

[Big John]

Like Amazon Prime. If you bundle your purchases and are willing to wait a couple days, you can get free shipping without paying the prime fees.