The junction of I-35W and FM 917 just south of Burleson, Texas has been a mess for years. FM 917 is a two-lane road the whole way. The junction previously had two all-way stops at the frontage roads, which were two-way until several years ago. Changing the frontage roads to one-way operation helped a little, by reducing the number of left turns.
Recently, traffic signals were installed, which theoretically would let more vehicles through without stopping and improve flow. However, the busier side of FM 917, eastbound, has gotten worse. Much of the eastbound traffic turns left to go north on the Interstate. There's no left-turn lane, and no protected left turn phase. Because of that, all westbound vehicles go first, and traffic in that direction is much improved, but only one or a few vehicles on the eastbound side progress in each cycle. Eastbound traffic backs up more than before. Even on weekends, when there would be just a few vehicles at the stop sign before, there is now a line past the warning sign for the traffic signal that moves incredibly slowly. I've always avoided the area during rush hour, but I'd imagine that line is to Hell and back.
There are long-term plans to add a new bridge and more lanes to FM 917. I don't know why there isn't a green arrow for the east-to-north movement. It would be asymmetrical, but that movement is by far the busiest through the signal and needs the most time. I have great respect for the field of engineering, but I also have a lot of experience in manufacturing, and I've seen what happens when there's a difference between what the engineers say is the "correct" way and what actually works. What happens is that the engineers don't like that we have the machines on the "wrong" settings and place labels telling us what is "correct," just so we know that they're frowning when we do it the way that works. Hopefully, when their work is visible to the public, on a road and not inside a factory, they'll be more open to adjusting things to reality. What are your experiences with improvements that made things worse?
Slightly different context, but here's a related thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=23858.0) I started a few years back.
Expanding I-65 from 4 to 8 lanes has done nothing but change the choke point and just expanded growth in Williamson County, TN.
My family has expressed frustration with Drum Hill Square in Chelmsford.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 12, 2021, 08:05:28 AM
My family has expressed frustration with Drum Hill Square in Chelmsford.
Which improvements are you talking about? Installing traffic signals? (I believe it was previously unsignalized.)
Quote from: 1 on May 12, 2021, 08:20:50 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 12, 2021, 08:05:28 AM
My family has expressed frustration with Drum Hill Square in Chelmsford.
Which improvements are you talking about? Installing traffic signals? (I believe it was previously unsignalized.)
Didn't it used to be a rotary?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 12, 2021, 08:21:41 AM
Quote from: 1 on May 12, 2021, 08:20:50 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 12, 2021, 08:05:28 AM
My family has expressed frustration with Drum Hill Square in Chelmsford.
Which improvements are you talking about? Installing traffic signals? (I believe it was previously unsignalized.)
Didn't it used to be a rotary?
Yes. The installation of traffic signals there is widely considered a genuine improvement.
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
Here's a scorching take:
Every single roundabout that replaced a traffic signal made things worse.
Every single roundabout that replaced a stop sign made things better.
These median bus lanes, were built to speed up bus traffic and make a Bus Rapid Transit system...
Except...
THE BUS COMES EVERY 15-30 MINUTES (depending on time of day)!!!! Completely defeats the purpose of a BRT system.
I feel like this would be justified if the bus headways were like 5 minutes or less, but otherwise, it only slows down car traffic. This is because 1) Protected left turn for every fucking intersection, 2) No more right turn lanes, and 3) None of the traffic lights are synchronized.
(https://i.imgur.com/RVNIpCQ.png)
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 12:41:33 PM
These median bus lanes, were built to speed up bus traffic and make a Bus Rapid Transit system...
Except...
THE BUS COMES EVERY 15-30 MINUTES (depending on time of day)!!!! Completely defeats the purpose of a BRT system.
I feel like this would be justified if the bus headways were like 5 minutes or less, but otherwise, it only slows down car traffic. This is because 1) Protected left turn for every fucking intersection, 2) No more right turn lanes, and 3) None of the traffic lights are synchronized.
So was the transit system there better beforehand? Or is it only the stoplights and lack of turn lanes that got worse?
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
I disagree. I've actually grown to like them. There's no shortage of them in Bend, and they seem to work just fine here.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:46:46 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on May 12, 2021, 12:41:33 PM
These median bus lanes, were built to speed up bus traffic and make a Bus Rapid Transit system...
Except...
THE BUS COMES EVERY 15-30 MINUTES (depending on time of day)!!!! Completely defeats the purpose of a BRT system.
I feel like this would be justified if the bus headways were like 5 minutes or less, but otherwise, it only slows down car traffic. This is because 1) Protected left turn for every fucking intersection, 2) No more right turn lanes, and 3) None of the traffic lights are synchronized.
So was the transit system there better beforehand? Or is it only the stoplights and lack of turn lanes that got worse?
Well, the transit was absolutely not better beforehand, so yeah, everything else got worse
In the Twin Cities (well on the metro fringe), the RCI built at TH-65 and Viking Blvd.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
I disagree. I've actually grown to like them. There's no shortage of them in Bend, and they seem to work just fine here.
Yeah I live in the Green Bay area, and they are all over the place up here. And they are just fine.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
Try telling that to the mayor of Carmel, IN (the Roundabout Capital of the World)!
I-4 merge onto I-75 north near Tampa. All it did was relocate the squeeze point a mile north of what it was supposed to eliminate.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 12, 2021, 04:14:46 PM
I-4 merge onto I-75 north near Tampa. All it did was relocate the squeeze point a mile north of what it was supposed to eliminate.
You make it sound like it's merely not better now–not that it's actually worse.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on May 12, 2021, 07:52:18 AM
Expanding I-65 from 4 to 8 lanes has done nothing but change the choke point and just expanded growth in Williamson County, TN.
Perhaps the needed solution is to widen I-65 further south to 6 or 8 lanes... but haven't you opposed that too?
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
I disagree. I've actually grown to like them. There's no shortage of them in Bend, and they seem to work just fine here.
They're much preferable to five-way (or more) intersections.
I-95 widening between the Capital Beltway (I-495) and the Occoquan River from 6 to 8 lanes. I'm not opposed to concept of widening, but the location they chose to put the 4th lane drop just south of the river has done nothing but create a chokepoint that is there over half the day, and starts around noon and lasts until well after rush hour. And extends for miles north.
The true answer is to widen the highway to 8 lanes down to Fredericksburg, or at least to VA-234, but VDOT has shot down any potential future widening projects, so that's never going away.
Another major chokepoint is the southern end of the HO/T lanes near Stafford, with all the HO/T traffic merging into the GP lanes, however once the southern extension of the lanes to Fredericksburg (currently under construction) is finally done, that should eliminate that bottleneck. The southern extension will tie into a project that is widening the highway to 12 lanes in the Fredericksburg region, and at that point volumes fall off significantly going south, so there should be no more bottleneck that's merely "shifted" .
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 12, 2021, 04:29:55 PM
Quote from: OCGuy81 on May 12, 2021, 12:47:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
I disagree. I've actually grown to like them. There's no shortage of them in Bend, and they seem to work just fine here.
They're much preferable to five-way (or more) intersections.
Yeah, the Skaggs roundabout in Branson (MO) was quite a bit worse back when it was a five-way stoplight.
The typical "improvement" that makes things worse is widening a road to increase a 1-lane left turn into a 2-lane left turn when that turn is signalized.
This is because a 1-lane left turn can be controlled by a permissive-protected signal, while 2-lane left turns must generally be controlled by protected-only signals (cue the few users on here that think multi-lane permissive left turns should be allowed).
My opinion is that it should only occur when traffic has gotten to the point that little to no traffic is able to make the left during the permissive phase.
Quote from: ran4sh on May 12, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
(cue the few users on here that think multi-lane permissive left turns should be allowed).
And do exist in some states.
As for roundabouts, they make things worse when they are placed on high-speed roads. I know of one that GDOT placed at the intersection of 2 state routes that each have a 55 mph speed limit.
Quote from: ran4sh on May 12, 2021, 08:59:53 PM
As for roundabouts, they make things worse when they are placed on high-speed roads. I know of one that GDOT placed at the intersection of 2 state routes that each have a 55 mph speed limit.
The alternatives are often (1) two-way stop control, which leads to a higher incidence of fatal side-impact crashes, or (2) a stoplight, which has similar downsides on a high-speed road as a roundabout has.
This roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/82Gn4yuvZjvCHxRQ7) at an intersection of two 65-mph highways, for example, used to be the site of a lot of really bad accidents. Now it isn't.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 09:34:47 AM
This roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/82Gn4yuvZjvCHxRQ7) at an intersection of two 65-mph highways, for example, used to be the site of a lot of really bad accidents. Now it isn't.
I am obligated to point out that
one of the approaches is actually 30 mph (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5299107,-95.8039883,3a,31.3y,279.91h,83.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg5SuVkRKEBU7JlQ987bfLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en). (Of course, that doesn't mean your statement is untrue, but it is relevant context.)
The I-77 toll lanes in the Charlotte Area.
Discussion on this in the Charlotte thread for context/explanation: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16665.msg2613433#msg2613433
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 04:33:31 PM
I-95 widening between the Capital Beltway (I-495) and the Occoquan River from 6 to 8 lanes. I'm not opposed to concept of widening, but the location they chose to put the 4th lane drop just south of the river has done nothing but create a chokepoint that is there over half the day, and starts around noon and lasts until well after rush hour. And extends for miles north.
This was the exact example I thought of the instant I saw this thread...4th lane drops instantly beyond a 5th auxiliary lane departing for VA 123, then followed immediately by 2 onramps. Literally anywhere would have been a better location to drop the 4th lane :banghead:
Another nearby example that comes to mind is the part-time left shoulder lane on I-495 north between the HOT-lane terminus & the Legion Bridge...all it did was push one bottleneck all the way to the foot of the Legion Bridge, which already had a bottleneck from the GW Parkway onramp. (The consolation is that this was always intended as a stopgap measure, with VDOT's 495 NEXT & MDOT's 270/495 P3 Program on the horizon).
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 13, 2021, 10:43:23 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 04:33:31 PM
I-95 widening between the Capital Beltway (I-495) and the Occoquan River from 6 to 8 lanes. I'm not opposed to concept of widening, but the location they chose to put the 4th lane drop just south of the river has done nothing but create a chokepoint that is there over half the day, and starts around noon and lasts until well after rush hour. And extends for miles north.
This was the exact example I thought of the instant I saw this thread...4th lane drops instantly beyond a 5th auxiliary lane departing for VA 123, then followed immediately by 2 onramps. Literally anywhere would have been a better location to drop the 4th lane :banghead:
They're currently building an auxiliary lane between the VA-123 on ramp southbound to connect to the VA-294 ramp, but I question how effective it will be. It's not going to eliminate the worse backup which is that 4th lane drop. They need to extend that to be
the auxiliary lane. That would at least help
more.
Quote from: webny99 on May 13, 2021, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 09:34:47 AM
This roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/82Gn4yuvZjvCHxRQ7) at an intersection of two 65-mph highways, for example, used to be the site of a lot of really bad accidents. Now it isn't.
I am obligated to point out that one of the approaches is actually 30 mph (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.5299107,-95.8039883,3a,31.3y,279.91h,83.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg5SuVkRKEBU7JlQ987bfLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en). (Of course, that doesn't mean your statement is untrue, but it is relevant context.)
The least-trafficked leg of the roundabout, yes. (It actually has a 20mph advisory in the other direction.)
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 12, 2021, 06:58:20 PM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 12, 2021, 05:33:43 PM
(cue the few users on here that think multi-lane permissive left turns should be allowed).
And do exist in some states.
Colorado. Soo many in the springs. And to be honest, they work pretty well.
Roundabouts are typically touted as safety improvements. I'm hard-pressed to think of examples where they have been sold as traffic improvements.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 13, 2021, 02:31:33 PM
Roundabouts are typically touted as safety improvements.
Yep. And I cited an example that was a success:
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 09:34:47 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 12, 2021, 08:59:53 PM
As for roundabouts, they make things worse when they are placed on high-speed roads. I know of one that GDOT placed at the intersection of 2 state routes that each have a 55 mph speed limit.
The alternatives are often (1) two-way stop control, which leads to a higher incidence of fatal side-impact crashes, or (2) a stoplight, which has similar downsides on a high-speed road as a roundabout has.
This roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/82Gn4yuvZjvCHxRQ7) at an intersection of two 65-mph highways, for example, used to be the site of a lot of really bad accidents. Now it isn't.
Quote from: webny99 on May 12, 2021, 12:32:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 12:26:34 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Building a roundabout in (insert name of any location where a roundabout has been built.)
You're saying that every single roundabout project made things worse?
Here's a scorching take:
Every single roundabout that replaced a traffic signal made things worse.
Every single roundabout that replaced a stop sign made things better.
Idiots here built a roundabout which was completed before we moved in. They didn't do it right so they had to close it again. It adds 5 miles to the drive to get out of our neighborhood because they didn't build an adequate detour. I can't wait to vote city council out for that mess.
Replacing button copy and demountable copy with direct-applied computer-cut sheeting has resulted in cheaper and more reflective signs, but made design quality worse by making it easy to distort and compress text, use unapproved typefaces, and the like.
The SR 99 tunnel in downtown Seattle did nothing to help traffic and only pushed traffic onto city streets. A lot of waste that could have gone towards the Surface + Transit option to actually provide a decent alternative.
Quote from: Bruce on May 13, 2021, 07:59:28 PM
The SR 99 tunnel in downtown Seattle did nothing to help traffic and only pushed traffic onto city streets. A lot of waste that could have gone towards the Surface + Transit option to actually provide a decent alternative.
And not building the tunnel would've just dumped traffic onto city streets even more... :sleep:
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 13, 2021, 06:41:59 PM
Replacing button copy and demountable copy with direct-applied computer-cut sheeting has resulted in cheaper and more reflective signs, but made design quality worse by making it easy to distort and compress text, use unapproved typefaces, and the like.
One might see that as a net gain rather than a net loss.
The solution to the "Hillside Strangler" on I-290 in the near west Chicago duburbs did little more than push the problem east.
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 09:34:47 AM
Quote from: ran4sh on May 12, 2021, 08:59:53 PM
As for roundabouts, they make things worse when they are placed on high-speed roads. I know of one that GDOT placed at the intersection of 2 state routes that each have a 55 mph speed limit.
The alternatives are often (1) two-way stop control, which leads to a higher incidence of fatal side-impact crashes, or (2) a stoplight, which has similar downsides on a high-speed road as a roundabout has.
This roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/82Gn4yuvZjvCHxRQ7) at an intersection of two 65-mph highways, for example, used to be the site of a lot of really bad accidents. Now it isn't.
Stoplights with sufficient advance warning should be fine. And by advance warning I mean, for example, a warning sign with flashing lights, where the lights turn off if the light is green and traffic is moving at free-flow conditions. The point is to give the driver a specific warning of whether they will have to slow down or not (which is especially important for trucks).
But a stoplight isn't what was there before. It was just a two-way stop. Either one might have been an improvement. All I'm saying is that the roundabout was an improvement–not that a stoplight necessarily wouldn't have been.
^ Grade separation :bigass:
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 14, 2021, 03:28:03 PM
^ Grade separation :bigass:
Yep! Some areas just won't be improved -- efficiency
or safety-wise without them. The junction of CA 12 and CA 113 west of Rio Vista is a prime example -- bad lines of sight, so they plowed up the hillside and installed a roundabout on one of the major commercial/recreational arteries between I-5 and the North Bay/wine country. It's also tule fog country; a couple of months after installation, an elderly couple fatally plowed into the structures in the center of the circle. A few posts upthread, a suggestion was made for a signal with ample advance notice via flashing overhead text (successfully used on CA expressways for decades); that would have been much more appropriate here than something that posed an physical obstacle on a 55mph facility with regular 20-30% speed overages. But a simple "super-2" grade separation with diamond ramps would have been the best solution -- if Caltrans weren't presently allergic to anything that vaguely resembles new freeway construction -- and seemingly obsessed with aggregate speed reduction, regardless of facility type. This certainly was an ill-conceived "improvement" that was in fact a regression!
When MD 24 opened between US 1 and I-95 in 1987, it was supposed to alleviate congestion on the old MD 24 corridor (which became MD 924) and provide an uninterrupted trip between the immediate Bel Air area and I-95. There were only two traffic signals at the time of its opening: at Boulton Street and just down the road at US 1 Bus, both at Harford Mall. By the late 1990s, all crossroads along this portion of MD 24 had full traffic signals. This included one at a new road, Marketplace Drive, that was built to keep up with increasing construction of retail in Bel Air. Congestion on new 24 now rivals that of old 24 pre-1987. The interchange with MD 924/Tollgate Road which opened in 2011, and is partially integrated with the I-95 interchange, helped somewhat in that immediate area (the Constant Friendship section of Abingdon). In about the next three years MD 24 is supposed to be three lanes in each direction up to in between Singer and Wheel roads.
The rebuild of the I-91/CT 15 interchange about 30 years ago created perhaps the biggest bottleneck between New York and Boston for traffic headed to I-84 from I-91 with a single lane ramp that is backed up for well over a mile 16 hours a day 7 days a week. It is so bad they're replacing it with a high speed LEFT exit.