Can a highway be racist?

[SEWIGuy]

So we probably overstate classism in the UK as we're obsessed with it as identifiers, just as the US is about race.

The US is obsessed about race?  What?

[thspfc]

So we probably overstate classism in the UK as we're obsessed with it as identifiers, just as the US is about race.

The US is obsessed about race?  What?

News outlets never shut up about race. Black this white that. All the time.

[Scott5114]

I don't think it's correct to say that the US is "obsessed" with race. Non-White people are forced to deal with it whether they want to or not; there's no escaping it. Of the 73% of the population that is White, I'd guess 50% are of the opinion that "hey, there are problems here that need to be fixed" and 50% are of the opinion that "it doesn't affect me so why should I care". None of that adds up to an "obsession" to me.

[Rothman]

Not sure if it's an obsession, but because racism is a constant issue here, it's little wonder that it is discussed frequently.

[bwana39]

I don't think it's correct to say that the US is "obsessed" with race. Non-White people are forced to deal with it whether they want to or not; there's no escaping it. Of the 73% of the population that is White, I'd guess 50% are of the opinion that "hey, there are problems here that need to be fixed" and 50% are of the opinion that "it doesn't affect me so why should I care". None of that adds up to an "obsession" to me.

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

I think a large segment of certain minority groups are indeed obsessed with race. I believe there is a small (but not insignificant) portion of white Americans who are racist and obsessed with promoting it.

It isn't as easy or as clear-cut as segments of the population and even the media would try to make it.

[kphoger]

Americans are either obsessed about racism, consciously mindful of racism, constantly bombarded by race issues in the media, striving to rid their outlook of any race-based biases, weary of all the talk about race, or actively and loudly insisting that the US has absolutely zero race problems at all.  The percentages reflected in each of those categories varies by race, but they're all present across the board.

[thspfc]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

[Rothman]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

[thspfc]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

You haven't said anything that refutes what I said. This post of yours is just the typical "you disagree with me so you're wrong."  And I don't expect anything more from you at this point.

[Rothman]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

You haven't said anything that refutes what I said. This post of yours is just the typical "you disagree with me so you're wrong."  And I don't expect anything more from you at this point.

I wasn't really arguing with what you said or trying to convince you that I am "right" or whatever.  More of a focus on the ramifications of your opinion.

[thspfc]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

You haven't said anything that refutes what I said. This post of yours is just the typical "you disagree with me so you're wrong."  And I don't expect anything more from you at this point.

I wasn't really arguing with what you said or trying to convince you that I am "right" or whatever.  More of a focus on the ramifications of your opinion.

Like what?

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.

What a bizarre line. What is this dangerous revelation that I made?

My line of thought on this is not new or unique. The US isn't an echo chamber of the same left-wing opinions like internet forums are.

[Rothman]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

You haven't said anything that refutes what I said. This post of yours is just the typical "you disagree with me so you're wrong."  And I don't expect anything more from you at this point.

I wasn't really arguing with what you said or trying to convince you that I am "right" or whatever.  More of a focus on the ramifications of your opinion.

Like what?

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.

What a bizarre line. What is this dangerous revelation that I made?

My line of thought on this is not new or unique. The US isn't an echo chamber of the same left-wing opinions like internet forums are.

There we have it.

[thspfc]

Scott, I disagree. We know there are problems. We just don't think that we (white America) are 100% of the problem. I agree that minorities started far behind and have not made inroads toward overall success, but SOME of it clearly belongs at the feet of the minority groups themselves.

100%. The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

Do I blame my life problems on racism? Of course not. I've never been personally affected by it. However, a white person who was denied their dream job or dream university, might feel differently if that institution used affirmative action, knowing they might have been just as or more qualified for the job/school, but were passed up due to skin color.

Egads.  Glad to know where you stand.  I think given my own experience and available information that you're mostly wrong (I mean, personal accountability surely is needed).

So much of the conversation focuses on whether the minorities are experiencing oppression from their perspective while whites stay mostly silent about their own experiences being prejudiced themselves or minimizing it as a fringe issue ("That's just my crazy uncle").

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.  Sort of hope it stays open.

You haven't said anything that refutes what I said. This post of yours is just the typical "you disagree with me so you're wrong."  And I don't expect anything more from you at this point.

I wasn't really arguing with what you said or trying to convince you that I am "right" or whatever.  More of a focus on the ramifications of your opinion.

Like what?

Wonder if the thread needs to be locked before more revelations like this are made.

What a bizarre line. What is this dangerous revelation that I made?

My line of thought on this is not new or unique. The US isn't an echo chamber of the same left-wing opinions like internet forums are.

There we have it.

There we have what?

Once again, wouldn't expect anything better from NE2 North.

[Max Rockatansky]

Americans certainly have an obsession with having opinions on almost everything.

[NWI_Irish96]

The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

So we had slavery for 246 years. Then, after 11 years of Reconstruction where the disadvantages that the freed slaves suffered were being seriously reversed, we had the 1876 election where the Republicans (then the liberal party) agreed to end reconstruction in exchange for the electoral votes from the disputed states to put Hayes in the White House.

What followed was 88 years of mostly unchecked Jim Crow until the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Since then, we've had very slow progress in achieving equality.

However, because school history curricula have largely been whitewashed, we've continued to have generations of white children in this country who don't learned about the real impacts that slavery and Jim Crow still have on black Americans today, and they become generations of white adults who truly don't understand why there is so much poverty, drug use and violence in black communities.

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

A group that has suffered racism for 400 years can't get true equality if the majority doesn't make a little bit of sacrifice themselves. That's an economic reality. That said, affirmative action might cost a white person a specific college or job choice that he/she wants, but white privilege is still so bountiful so that white person can easily find an equivalent opportunity.

[thspfc]

The majority of the "racism"  seen in the US today is just hangover from racism that occurred decades ago. Are some minorities disadvantaged? Yes. But there are many things contributing to the racial quality of life difference that can't be blamed on past or present racism.

So we had slavery for 246 years. Then, after 11 years of Reconstruction where the disadvantages that the freed slaves suffered were being seriously reversed, we had the 1876 election where the Republicans (then the liberal party) agreed to end reconstruction in exchange for the electoral votes from the disputed states to put Hayes in the White House.

What followed was 88 years of mostly unchecked Jim Crow until the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Since then, we've had very slow progress in achieving equality.

However, because school history curricula have largely been whitewashed, we've continued to have generations of white children in this country who don't learned about the real impacts that slavery and Jim Crow still have on black Americans today, and they become generations of white adults who truly don't understand why there is so much poverty, drug use and violence in black communities.

What's new?

And racism against white people exists. Affirmative action is blatant racism. Treating people differently based on their race - that's literally what affirmative action is.

A group that has suffered racism for 400 years can't get true equality if the majority doesn't make a little bit of sacrifice themselves. That's an economic reality. That said, affirmative action might cost a white person a specific college or job choice that he/she wants, but white privilege is still so bountiful so that white person can easily find an equivalent opportunity.

I feel that there are probably better solutions to the race gap than being racist towards white people. For example, starting from the bottom by focusing more on improving conditions within ethnic minority communities.

I also don't think that people of today should be punished for the actions of people in the distant past just because they happen to have the same skin color as those past people.

[Scott5114]

Saying things like affirmative action are "racist" and "punish" white people is like a basketball player saying it's unfair that you gave a stepstool to a five-foot-tall person and not them.

[Rothman]

I feel that there are probably better solutions to the race gap than being racist towards white people. For example, starting from the bottom by focusing more on improving conditions within ethnic minority communities.

How?

[thspfc]

I feel that there are probably better solutions to the race gap than being racist towards white people. For example, starting from the bottom by focusing more on improving conditions within ethnic minority communities.

How?

Investing into education, housing, addiction rehab facilities, gun control, healthcare, etc. in those communities.

[thspfc]

Saying things like affirmative action are "racist" and "punish" white people is like a basketball player saying it's unfair that you gave a stepstool to a five-foot-tall person and not them.

Not at all. In the case of affirmative action, an advantage is purposely given to the minority race. I'm saying that no advantage should be given to either race. By saying that the step stool would otherwise be given to the basketball player, you're saying that the lack of affirmative action would automatically give white people an advantage. I believe that whatever advantage there may be for white people is not caused by the lack of affirmative action, because there is plenty.

[Laura]

Unfortunately, yes, highway placement historically has often been racist.

(As an urban planning and transportation planning nerd, this is something I've studied extensively...will post more when not preoccupied with my toddler...)

[Scott5114]

Saying things like affirmative action are "racist" and "punish" white people is like a basketball player saying it's unfair that you gave a stepstool to a five-foot-tall person and not them.

Not at all. In the case of affirmative action, an advantage is purposely given to the minority race. I'm saying that no advantage should be given to either race. By saying that the step stool would otherwise be given to the basketball player, you're saying that the lack of affirmative action would automatically give white people an advantage. I believe that whatever advantage there may be for white people is not caused by the lack of affirmative action, because there is plenty.

Your logic is hard to follow. The purpose of affirmative action is to offset advantages that White people naturally have (due to essentially getting a multi-century "head start" in development over Black people). It is not that not having it would automatically give them an advantange–they're going to have one either way, it's just that this is a tool to help mitigate that advantage, like a golf handicap. Or to use the stepstool analogy–my 5'1" wife using a stepstool does not change the fact that I'm 5'10", it just means she can reach the same shelves as me.

[NWI_Irish96]

I also don't think that people of today should be punished for the actions of people in the distant past just because they happen to have the same skin color as those past people.

Affirmative action doesn't actually punish white people. There are lots of opportunities afforded them, and losing one of two of them due to affirmative action does not. So maybe a minority with SAT scores 100 points lower than you got into Harvard and you didn't. Not a big deal. You can still go to Dartmouth and have every opportunity at a future that you'd otherwise have.

Also, when you consider the likely worse public school system that the minority went to compared to the white person, standardized testing scores aren't entirely indicative of how much something is deserved in the first place.

[thspfc]

Saying things like affirmative action are "racist" and "punish" white people is like a basketball player saying it's unfair that you gave a stepstool to a five-foot-tall person and not them.

Not at all. In the case of affirmative action, an advantage is purposely given to the minority race. I'm saying that no advantage should be given to either race. By saying that the step stool would otherwise be given to the basketball player, you're saying that the lack of affirmative action would automatically give white people an advantage. I believe that whatever advantage there may be for white people is not caused by the lack of affirmative action, because there is plenty.

Your logic is hard to follow. The purpose of affirmative action is to offset advantages that White people naturally have (due to essentially getting a multi-century "head start" in development over Black people). It is not that not having it would automatically give them an advantange–they're going to have one either way, it's just that this is a tool to help mitigate that advantage, like a golf handicap. Or to use the stepstool analogy–my 5'1" wife using a stepstool does not change the fact that I'm 5'10", it just means she can reach the same shelves as me.

But that's not a competitive situation with dreams and money on the line.

[thspfc]

I also don't think that people of today should be punished for the actions of people in the distant past just because they happen to have the same skin color as those past people.

Affirmative action doesn't actually punish white people. There are lots of opportunities afforded them, and losing one of two of them due to affirmative action does not. So maybe a minority with SAT scores 100 points lower than you got into Harvard and you didn't. Not a big deal. You can still go to Dartmouth and have every opportunity at a future that you'd otherwise have.

Also, when you consider the likely worse public school system that the minority went to compared to the white person, standardized testing scores aren't entirely indicative of how much something is deserved in the first place.

The last paragraph is a fair point, but it's not necessarily about race. Somebody who achieved similar or better things with a disadvantaged upbringing, regardless of race, should be seen as more qualified than the person who did not have such privileges as a child. That shouldn't have to do with race at all (of course minorities are more likely to be the former than the latter, but correlation doesn't have to mean causation).