Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
With California it was probably more important to have the Capital in a central location during the Gold Rush. All the California State Capitals were more or less centralized in the middle of the state. The Capital or Alta California was beforehand based in Monterey which I believe at the time was also the largest Mexican/Spanish city.
What, after all, is the purpose of a capital city? I'd say that a capital's fundamental purpose is to be the seat of government offices. Now, these government offices should ideally be located in a place that's convenient to most citizens of that state. But, if the largest city is way off on one side of the state, locating the capital there could be seen as unfairly disadvantaging residents on the other side of the state (i.e. unfair to entire regions of the state). On the flip side, if the largest city is way off on one side of the state, then not locating the capital there could be seen as unfairly disadvantaging residents of the city (i.e. unfair to the majority or at least a large percentage of the state's populace). So it's a balancing act, and each state must decide how to accomplish it.
This is why, for example, I think it's a good thing for Missouri's capital city to be a relatively small one that's roughly halfway between Kansas City and Saint Louis: locating the capital in either one of those large metro areas would seem quite unfair to residents of the other. The same goes for Illinois, whose capital is in between Chicago and Saint Louis. Likewise Pennsylvania, whose capital is in between Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
Our State capitals are 75 - 250 years old. In some cases, what was a large city at the time isn't as large anymore. Some are located centrally in the state. Other towns and cities offer tax and other economic incentives for residents and businesses to locate in their area, and that city grows because of the opportunities available. Even the road network may have provided opportunities for growth in areas that didn't exist before.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
In some cases, suspicion of big-city sin and corruption (so they got instead small-city sin and corruption).
Sometimes radical population shifts. For example, Alaska's capital was relocated to Juneau in 1906, from the even smaller Russian colonial capital Sitka. Juneau was the big city in the 1900s. The current biggest city, Anchorage, didn't even exist back then. There have been unsuccessful efforts to move the capital near Anchorage (not into the city, viewed with suspicion by much of the rest of the state). Some smaller state agencies are headquartered in Anchorage, but moving the governor's office, legislature, and the rest of the bureaucracy out of Juneau was considered too costly.
In southern states, air conditioning was sometimes a factor too. Florida's capital Tallahassee was established pre-air conditioning, when much of the rest of the state was barely habitable. Now there's enough population in central and southern Florida to make relocating the capital thinkable, except for the fights that would ensue between Orlando, Tampa, and Miami about where to move the capital.
We have an entire thread https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0 discussing the merits of geographical center vs population center for state capitals.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
Washington...
Quote from: kphoger on November 15, 2022, 02:01:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
Washington...
Of course, for those who don't remember their high school US History class and didn't see Hamilton, Washington was chosen over New York as a concession to the southern states in exchange for establishing the central US bank that the northern states wanted.
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
I meant that all states and territories of Australia have their largest city as capital:
Western Australia-Perth
South Australia-Adelaide
Victoria-Melbourne
New South Wales-Sydney
Queensland-Brisbane
Tasmania-Hobart
Northern Territory-Darwin
In some states like Hawaii, Arizona, Georgia and Massachusetts the largest city is the state capital like Atlanta, Phoenix, Honolulu and Boston. But some of this was because it was the only Metro area at the time of founding.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 02:08:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
I meant that all states and territories of Australia have their largest city as capital:
Western Australia-Perth
South Australia-Adelaide
Victoria-Melbourne
New South Wales-Sydney
Queensland-Brisbane
Tasmania-Hobart
Northern Territory-Darwin
Uh huh...while deliberately omitting the fact that the largest city in Australia is not its national capital.
Largest isn't always the best place for the capital...
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 02:08:34 PM
I meant that all states and territories of Australia have their largest city as capital:
We know what you meant. He was just pointing out that the federal capital of the same country isn't even in the top five.
Also...
Abuja
Ankara
Brasilia
Ottawa
Rabat
It's hardly a rare phenomenon. In some of those cases, in fact, the capital was moved to a smaller city.
6 of the 7 most populous countries in the world don't have their capitals in the largest city, with Indonesia on the way to being that way too.
Beijing vs. Shanghai
Delhi vs. Mumbai
Washington vs. New York
Nusantara vs. Jakarta
Islamabad vs. Karachi
Abuja vs. Lagos
Brasilia vs. Sao Paulo
Quote from: oscar on November 15, 2022, 01:39:04 PM
There have been unsuccessful efforts to move the capital near Anchorage (not into the city, viewed with suspicion by much of the rest of the state).
"Welcome to Anchorage: Gateway to Alaska"
A sentiment I heard several times up there.
They'd also call it "Los Anchorage". (Well, at least some of the white people did...)
In some cases it is for political reasons. The capital of Illinois is Springfield out of an attempt to keep the state government insulated from the Chicago political machine and keep Chicago's interests from drowning out the interests of rural downstate Illinois. (I would guess most Illinoisans would say it hasn't worked.)
Albany and NYC is much the same story. If you put the capital of NY in midtown Manhattan, you'd hear Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, etc. complaining that their interests can't fairly be represented in relation to those of NYC. During much of the 19th century, New York City politics were run by Boss Tweed and the Tammany Hall political machine, and putting the capital in Albany made it harder for Tammany to influence the state government.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2022, 07:57:05 PM
In some cases it is for political reasons. The capital of Illinois is Springfield out of an attempt to keep the state government insulated from the Chicago political machine and keep Chicago's interests from drowning out the interests of rural downstate Illinois. (I would guess most Illinoisans would say it hasn't worked.)
Albany and NYC is much the same story. If you put the capital of NY in midtown Manhattan, you'd hear Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, etc. complaining that their interests can't fairly be represented in relation to those of NYC. During much of the 19th century, New York City politics were run by Boss Tweed and the Tammany Hall political machine, and putting the capital in Albany made it harder for Tammany to influence the state government.
Albany became the capital nearly a century before Boss Tweed.
It was more about keeping the capital protected from foreign invasion.
A state capital could be relocated at the drop of a hat as long as there was enough office and meeting space.
Who said you have to have a great big granite or limestone building with a cupola on top of it?
Quote from: Road Hog on November 15, 2022, 10:10:08 PM
A state capital could be relocated at the drop of a hat as long as there was enough office and meeting space.
Who said you have to have a great big granite or limestone building with a cupola on top of it?
Indeed. See Florida:
(https://i.imgur.com/v5iPeQ1.jpg)
The capitol is in this photo... but it's the ugly looking skyscraper thing in the background. The historic building in front with the flags on top is the Old Capitol, which was the capitol building before 1977.
^^ Bismarck ND: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_Capitol
If San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego were the state Capitals of California and not Sacramento then you will have water interests in the Delta region respond that the water is being drained out.
I remember reading that Vallejo and Benicia were once the State Capitals of California prior to Sacramento getting it. Some of this was to negotiate with the ship building industry in San Francisco and the Gold trade industries in Sacramento during the Gold Rush era.
What is the capital of Quebec? I do not believe that the answer to that question would be Montreal.
And hopefully Scott5114 can explain to us why Oklahoma City was selected to be the capital of Oklahoma. Why not Norman?
Quote from: jgb191 on November 16, 2022, 01:34:20 AM
What is the capital of Quebec? I do not believe that the answer to that question would be Montreal.
It's the city of Quebec.
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 02:08:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
I meant that all states and territories of Australia have their largest city as capital:
Western Australia-Perth
South Australia-Adelaide
Victoria-Melbourne
New South Wales-Sydney
Queensland-Brisbane
Tasmania-Hobart
Northern Territory-Darwin
Uh huh...while deliberately omitting the fact that the largest city in Australia is not its national capital.
Largest isn't always the best place for the capital...
And the reason Canberra was chosen was precisely because it was halfway between the two largest cities (Sydney and Melbourne).
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2022, 07:57:05 PM
In some cases it is for political reasons. The capital of Illinois is Springfield out of an attempt to keep the state government insulated from the Chicago political machine and keep Chicago's interests from drowning out the interests of rural downstate Illinois. (I would guess most Illinoisans would say it hasn't worked.)
The capital of Illinois was moved to Springfield before Chicago was really a thing.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 16, 2022, 08:44:51 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2022, 07:57:05 PM
In some cases it is for political reasons. The capital of Illinois is Springfield out of an attempt to keep the state government insulated from the Chicago political machine and keep Chicago's interests from drowning out the interests of rural downstate Illinois. (I would guess most Illinoisans would say it hasn't worked.)
The capital of Illinois was moved to Springfield before Chicago was really a thing.
Yeah, the history of population growth in Illinois is pretty interesting. Nauvoo once rivaled Chicago due to the Mormon influx (late 1830s/early 1940s)...but that was before Chicago really took off.
Quote from: kirbykart on November 16, 2022, 08:05:56 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 02:21:50 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 02:08:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
I meant that all states and territories of Australia have their largest city as capital:
Western Australia-Perth
South Australia-Adelaide
Victoria-Melbourne
New South Wales-Sydney
Queensland-Brisbane
Tasmania-Hobart
Northern Territory-Darwin
Uh huh...while deliberately omitting the fact that the largest city in Australia is not its national capital.
Largest isn't always the best place for the capital...
And the reason Canberra was chosen was precisely because it was halfway between the two largest cities (Sydney and Melbourne).
The constitution required the new capital of the Commonwealth to be at least 100 miles from Sydney. Prior to Canberra being completed in 1927, Melbourne served as the seat of government.
Columbus, Ohio was put as the capital due to its geographical location at the center of the state, in 1816. Population-wise, it wasn't the largest city in Ohio until the sometime in the 80s when it passed Cleveland proper. The combination of Columbus having room for annexations that landlocked Cleveland didn't have, plus the rust-belt flight and population decline gave Columbus the edge.
About a year before Minnesota became a state, the territorial legislature approved a move of the capital to St. Peter, which is a city in south central Minnesota just north of Mankato. However, before the bill could be signed, an opposed legislator stole the physical bill and hid with it, preventing the move from legally taking effect. For whatever reason it never came up again after that.
Quote from: Road Hog on November 15, 2022, 10:10:08 PM
A state capital could be relocated at the drop of a hat as long as there was enough office and meeting space.
Who said you have to have a great big granite or limestone building with a cupola on top of it?
The capital of Oklahoma was relocated from its original location of Guthrie to Oklahoma City overnight, under cover of darkness. (The pro-Oklahoma City people were afraid the pro-Guthrie people would try to stop them if they did it during the day.)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on November 16, 2022, 08:44:51 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 15, 2022, 07:57:05 PM
In some cases it is for political reasons. The capital of Illinois is Springfield out of an attempt to keep the state government insulated from the Chicago political machine and keep Chicago's interests from drowning out the interests of rural downstate Illinois. (I would guess most Illinoisans would say it hasn't worked.)
The capital of Illinois was moved to Springfield before Chicago was really a thing.
At statehood, Springfield was the population core of Illinois and today's Chicago was an uninhabited (except for a small military presence and a few aboriginal camps) wide open swampy plain.
Wisconsin's original state capital was in Belmont, WI, later moved to the more centrally located (at the time) Madison.
Mike
Quote from: US 89 on November 15, 2022, 10:24:22 PM
Quote from: Road Hog on November 15, 2022, 10:10:08 PM
A state capital could be relocated at the drop of a hat as long as there was enough office and meeting space.
Who said you have to have a great big granite or limestone building with a cupola on top of it?
Indeed. See Florida:
(https://i.imgur.com/v5iPeQ1.jpg)
The capitol is in this photo... but it's the ugly looking skyscraper thing in the background. The historic building in front with the flags on top is the Old Capitol, which was the capitol building before 1977.
Here is an article about the man who inadvertently spurred the effort to built said skyscraper in Tallahassee:
http://justicebuilding.blogspot.com/2017/05/harold-fields-and-lee-weissenborn-have.html
Alabama- Montgomery no
Alaska -Juneau no
Arizona- Phoenix yes
Arkansas- Little Rock yes
California-Sacramento no
Colorado- Denver yes
Connecticut-Hartford yes
Delaware- Dover no
Florida- Tallahassee no
Georgia-Atlanta yes
Hawaii-Honolulu yes
Idaho- Boise yes
Illinios- Springfield no
Indiana- Indianapolis yes
Iowa- Des Moines yes
Kansas- Topeka no
Kentucky- Frankfort no
Louisiana- Baton Rouge no
Maine- Augusta no
Maryland- Annapolis no
Massachusetts Boston yes
Michigan- Lansing no
Minnesota- St Paul no (While not the state's largest city itself. It is within the state's largest metro area)
Mississippi- Jackson yes
Missouri- Jefferson City no
Montana-Helena no
Nebraska- Lincoln no
Nevada- Carson City no
New Hampshire- Concord no
New Jersey- Trenton no
New Mexico- Santa Fe no
New York- Albany no
Ohio- Columbus yes
Oklahoma- Oklahoma City yes
Oregon- Salem no
Pennsylvania- Harrisburg no
Rhode Island- Providence yes
South Carolina- Columbia yes
South Dakota -Pierre no
Tennessee- Nashville yes (Although until recently Memphis was the largest city)
Texas- Austin no
Utah-Salt Lake City yes
Vermont-Montpellier no
Virginia-Richmond no
Washington- Olympia no (It could be considered part of the Seattle metro area the state's largest metro but I am not sure)
West Virgina- Charleston yes
Wisconsin- Madison no
Wyoming- Cheyenne yes
In Michigan, Lansing is in between the largest city and second largest city in the state.
The original capital of Utah Territory was Fillmore, a small farm town located off modern I-15 in the central part of the state. The site was chosen for its central location and due to a perception that locating it away from Salt Lake would insulate the state government from too much Mormon influence - or at least give that appearance to the federal government. Not sure how effective that was, given that almost all the legislators were LDS church members and Brigham Young, their prophet, was the territorial governor...
The thing was that a huge percentage of the population lived in or in the area of Salt Lake, about 150 miles north of Fillmore. Because Fillmore was out in the sticks, it took a good long while for the territorial statehouse to be built. And so for the first 4 years, the territorial assembly met in Salt Lake City while the statehouse was being built. By 1855, the south wing was done and the assembly met in Fillmore that year. Apparently that wasn't too popular, because after that they gave up on the Fillmore statehouse project entirely and moved the capital officially tO SLC, where it has remained since.
Alaska's capital could be moved out from Juneau, possibly to Anchorage because it is the largest city.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 17, 2022, 02:51:09 AM
Alaska's capital could be moved out from Juneau, possibly to Anchorage because it is the largest city.
It couldn't be moved by road, though. :D
Quote from: dvferyance on November 16, 2022, 07:46:12 PM
Alabama- Montgomery no
Alaska -Juneau no
Arizona- Phoenix yes
Arkansas- Little Rock yes
California-Sacramento no
Colorado- Denver yes
Connecticut-Hartford yes
Delaware- Dover no
Florida- Tallahassee no
Georgia-Atlanta yes
Hawaii-Honolulu yes
Idaho- Boise yes
Illinios- Springfield no
Indiana- Indianapolis yes
Iowa- Des Moines yes
Kansas- Topeka no
Kentucky- Frankfort no
Louisiana- Baton Rouge no
Maine- Augusta no
Maryland- Annapolis no
Massachusetts Boston yes
Michigan- Lansing no
Minnesota- St Paul no (While not the state's largest city itself. It is within the state's largest metro area)
Mississippi- Jackson yes
Missouri- Jefferson City no
Montana-Helena no
Nebraska- Lincoln no
Nevada- Carson City no
New Hampshire- Concord no
New Jersey- Trenton no
New Mexico- Santa Fe no
New York- Albany no
Ohio- Columbus yes
Oklahoma- Oklahoma City yes
Oregon- Salem no
Pennsylvania- Harrisburg no
Rhode Island- Providence yes
South Carolina- Columbia yes
South Dakota -Pierre no
Tennessee- Nashville yes (Although until recently Memphis was the largest city)
Texas- Austin no
Utah-Salt Lake City yes
Vermont-Montpellier no
Virginia-Richmond no
Washington- Olympia no (It could be considered part of the Seattle metro area the state's largest metro but I am not sure)
West Virgina- Charleston yes
Wisconsin- Madison no
Wyoming- Cheyenne yes
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city.
Dover may be the official capital of Delaware, but in many ways, Wilmington (the largest city) is the functional capital.
Quote from: plain on November 17, 2022, 10:03:42 AM
Quote from: dvferyance on November 16, 2022, 07:46:12 PM
Alabama- Montgomery no
Alaska -Juneau no
Arizona- Phoenix yes
Arkansas- Little Rock yes
California-Sacramento no
Colorado- Denver yes
Connecticut-Hartford yes
Delaware- Dover no
Florida- Tallahassee no
Georgia-Atlanta yes
Hawaii-Honolulu yes
Idaho- Boise yes
Illinios- Springfield no
Indiana- Indianapolis yes
Iowa- Des Moines yes
Kansas- Topeka no
Kentucky- Frankfort no
Louisiana- Baton Rouge no
Maine- Augusta no
Maryland- Annapolis no
Massachusetts Boston yes
Michigan- Lansing no
Minnesota- St Paul no (While not the state's largest city itself. It is within the state's largest metro area)
Mississippi- Jackson yes
Missouri- Jefferson City no
Montana-Helena no
Nebraska- Lincoln no
Nevada- Carson City no
New Hampshire- Concord no
New Jersey- Trenton no
New Mexico- Santa Fe no
New York- Albany no
Ohio- Columbus yes
Oklahoma- Oklahoma City yes
Oregon- Salem no
Pennsylvania- Harrisburg no
Rhode Island- Providence yes
South Carolina- Columbia yes
South Dakota -Pierre no
Tennessee- Nashville yes (Although until recently Memphis was the largest city)
Texas- Austin no
Utah-Salt Lake City yes
Vermont-Montpellier no
Virginia-Richmond no
Washington- Olympia no (It could be considered part of the Seattle metro area the state's largest metro but I am not sure)
West Virgina- Charleston yes
Wisconsin- Madison no
Wyoming- Cheyenne yes
Bridgeport is Connecticut's largest city.
Charleston is South Carolina's largest city.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 17, 2022, 02:51:09 AM
Alaska's capital could be moved out from Juneau, possibly to Anchorage because it is the largest city.
So... you didn't read the rest of the replies before posting?
Quote from: Road Hog on November 15, 2022, 10:10:08 PM
A state capital could be relocated at the drop of a hat as long as there was enough office and meeting space.
Who said you have to have a great big granite or limestone building with a cupola on top of it?
Yeah but civic pride!
Are we talking about capitals or capitols?
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out to this group that one refers to the city, while the other one refers to the building where (usually) the governor's office is located.
I was very surprised during my trip to AASHTO's Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (TransComm) conference in Annapolis a few years ago to find out that many Maryland state offices and agencies are actually located in Baltimore, not Annapolis.
But there isn't any state whose capitol isn't in its capital, right?
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on November 16, 2022, 02:08:44 PM
About a year before Minnesota became a state, the territorial legislature approved a move of the capital to St. Peter, which is a city in south central Minnesota just north of Mankato. However, before the bill could be signed, an opposed legislator stole the physical bill and hid with it, preventing the move from legally taking effect. For whatever reason it never came up again after that.
Robbing (St.) Peter to pay (St.) Paul. :)
Quote from: kphoger on November 17, 2022, 03:16:38 PM
But there isn't any state whose capitol isn't in its capital, right?
Every state's capitol (or what essentially serves as it since not all states have a building by that name) is in the capital city. In some states, such as Maryland and Illinois, a significant number of state government offices are located in Baltimore and Chicago, but the building that houses the legislature and the governor's office is still in Annapolis/Springfield.
When Michigan became a state in 1837, the Constitution of 1835 required that the state capital move in ten years. At the time, Detroit was on the border with a hostile power: British North America, and the city had been invaded by the British during the War of 1812. At the time, there was a movement in the US to not locate state capitals in the states' largest cities to avoid the concentration of power and resulting corruption.
The story of how Lansing was chosen could take up another post on its own. One fun fact is that Lansing is not the seat of its county. Mason pre-dates Lansing and is centrally located in Ingham County, so it remains the county seat. There are satellite offices for county government in Lansing, but that's hardly unusual. Marquette is the seat of Marquette County, but there is a courthouse in Ishpeming to hear cases there originating from half of thee county's municipalities.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on November 18, 2022, 02:57:10 AM
When Michigan became a state in 1837, the Constitution of 1835 required that the state capital move in ten years. At the time, Detroit was on the border with a hostile power: British North America, and the city had been invaded by the British during the War of 1812. At the time, there was a movement in the US to not locate state capitals in the states' largest cities to avoid the concentration of power and resulting corruption.
The story of how Lansing was chosen could take up another post on its own. One fun fact is that Lansing is not the seat of its county. Mason pre-dates Lansing and is centrally located in Ingham County, so it remains the county seat. There are satellite offices for county government in Lansing, but that's hardly unusual. Marquette is the seat of Marquette County, but there is a courthouse in Ishpeming to hear cases there originating from half of thee county's municipalities.
Mason was setup to become the capital of Michigan in 1836 when Charles Noble purchased an area of forest and cleared 20 acres originally called Mason Center but the Center of course was dropped. The state chose Lansing due to it's potential for water power. Lansing was still a Township at that time. Noble managed to make Mason the county seat instead and the first courthouse was built in Mason in 1843.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 17, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Are we talking about capitals or capitols?
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out to this group that one refers to the city, while the other one refers to the building where (usually) the governor's office is located.
I was very surprised during my trip to AASHTO's Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (TransComm) conference in Annapolis a few years ago to find out that many Maryland state offices and agencies are actually located in Baltimore, not Annapolis.
The capitol is usually where the legislature meets, usually not where the governor's office is.
Quote from: kkt on November 19, 2022, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 17, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Are we talking about capitals or capitols?
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out to this group that one refers to the city, while the other one refers to the building where (usually) the governor's office is located.
I was very surprised during my trip to AASHTO's Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (TransComm) conference in Annapolis a few years ago to find out that many Maryland state offices and agencies are actually located in Baltimore, not Annapolis.
The capitol is usually where the legislature meets, usually not where the governor's office is.
Quote from: kkt on November 19, 2022, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 17, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Are we talking about capitals or capitols?
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out to this group that one refers to the city, while the other one refers to the building where (usually) the governor's office is located.
I was very surprised during my trip to AASHTO's Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (TransComm) conference in Annapolis a few years ago to find out that many Maryland state offices and agencies are actually located in Baltimore, not Annapolis.
The capitol is usually where the legislature meets, usually not where the governor's office is.
Well, most state capitols or statehouses or whatever have both. And assuming the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_and_territorial_capitols_in_the_United_States) is correct, the legislatures of all but 4 states meet in the capitol, and the governor's office in all but 1 state is in the capitol, although in another 5 states that office is ceremonial.
Etymologically, there's nothing to suggest that a capitol must or should house a legislature, since it comes from the Capitolium, a temple in Rome dedicated to Jupiter, which later gave its name to the Capitoline Hill.
Then there's South Africa with its legislative, executive, and judicial capitals.
Delaware's legislature does meet in Dover, but aside from a couple of agencies nothing else is really based there.
Quote from: kkt on November 19, 2022, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 17, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Are we talking about capitals or capitols?
It probably doesn't need to be pointed out to this group that one refers to the city, while the other one refers to the building where (usually) the governor's office is located.
I was very surprised during my trip to AASHTO's Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (TransComm) conference in Annapolis a few years ago to find out that many Maryland state offices and agencies are actually located in Baltimore, not Annapolis.
The capitol is usually where the legislature meets, usually not where the governor's office is.
Wisconsin has a nifty all-inclusive century+ old capitol building, its four wings are the legislative Assembly (lower house), the legislative Senate (upper house), governor's Office and the state supreme court.
Mike
A unified capitol does make sense from an ease-of-use perspective, but in a post-9/11 security mindset, presents a rather substantial risk, since multiple branches of the government could be decapitated at once in the event of an attack.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 19, 2022, 07:40:41 PM
A unified capitol does make sense from an ease-of-use perspective, but in a post-9/11 security mindset, presents a rather substantial risk, since multiple branches of the government could be decapitated at once in the event of an attack.
At our office in the Louisville area we have annual exercises where key staff from our DC-area HQ come out and simulate some sort of event that knocks out all power in the DC area.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on November 19, 2022, 08:07:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 19, 2022, 07:40:41 PM
A unified capitol does make sense from an ease-of-use perspective, but in a post-9/11 security mindset, presents a rather substantial risk, since multiple branches of the government could be decapitated at once in the event of an attack.
At our office in the Louisville area we have annual exercises where key staff from our DC-area HQ come out and simulate some sort of event that knocks out all power in the DC area.
My agency did that too except we didn't have to simulate it. Any time a winter storm or hurricane or presidential inauguration shut down our DC offices, my St Louis office would have to pick up the slack. The reverse would happen if St Louis shut down but that was less frequent. While both sites could run many things automatically or could handle being shut down for a few days, there were always some functions like operations watches and GPS that needed 24/7 support.
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
Quote from: Road Hog on February 23, 2023, 12:50:08 AM
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
I think that Alaska is the only state that should move the capital. It would be like having Nantucket as the capital of Massachusetts.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on February 23, 2023, 12:50:08 AM
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
I think that Alaska is the only state that should move the capital. It would be like having Nantucket as the capital of Massachusetts.
Juneau lies on the primary marine and air corridor between Alaska and the Lower 48. It's by no means totally remote nowadays.
While a capital closer to the Anchorage area would make sense, there would be complaints from the Panhandle region.
I'd imagine the population density is higher in the Inside Passage than anywhere else in Alaska.
I mean compared to rural Alaska, sure, but not Anchorage or the nearby Mat-Su Valley
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on February 23, 2023, 12:50:08 AM
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
I think that Alaska is the only state that should move the capital. It would be like having Nantucket as the capital of Massachusetts.
I think Florida should move their capitol to Orlando since it's centrally located and much easier to get to for those in the peninsula.
I would also be in favor of Louisiana moving theirs to Alexandria.
Quote from: golden eagle on February 23, 2023, 03:06:06 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on February 23, 2023, 12:50:08 AM
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
I think that Alaska is the only state that should move the capital. It would be like having Nantucket as the capital of Massachusetts.
I think Florida should move their capitol to Orlando since it's centrally located and much easier to get to for those in the peninsula.
I would also be in favor of Louisiana moving theirs to Alexandria.
Also Orlando is a coastal city so it would be a pretty location for a capital :bigass:.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 03:40:38 PM
Quote from: golden eagle on February 23, 2023, 03:06:06 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 23, 2023, 01:22:27 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on February 23, 2023, 12:50:08 AM
I can't really think of a legit reason to relocate a state capital now with modern travel. Tallahassee's location was logical in the 1800s because the peninsula was thinly populated. The one argument I'll make is moving Alaska's capital closer to its population center in Anchorage. Willow has been long proposed as the new location. The only explanation for Juneau is that it's situated in a temperate area.
I think that Alaska is the only state that should move the capital. It would be like having Nantucket as the capital of Massachusetts.
I think Florida should move their capitol to Orlando since it's centrally located and much easier to get to for those in the peninsula.
I would also be in favor of Louisiana moving theirs to Alexandria.
Also Orlando is a coastal city so it would be a pretty location for a capital :bigass:.
After Disney leaves Florida, Florida can put the new state capitol in what used to be Disney World.
Springfield may be capital of Illinois, but most government business is done at the James R Thompson center in Chicago.
Quote from: golden eagle on February 23, 2023, 03:06:06 PM
I think Florida should move their capitol to Orlando since it's centrally located and much easier to get to for those in the peninsula.
Only if everything west of the Suwannee River becomes its own state. It's one thing to have a South Florida situation where you're distant from your capital but near a very large city, which presumably has a branch of most state offices you'd ever need. The only real cities of note in the panhandle are Pensacola and Tallahassee, and neither of those are exactly large metropolitan areas.
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 08:35:17 PM
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 08:35:17 PM
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
That's not a good idea. Miami is nowhere near centrally located enough.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:23:20 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 08:35:17 PM
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
That's not a good idea. Miami is nowhere near centrally located enough.
But Miami is most known and largest metropolitan area.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:25:29 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:23:20 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 08:35:17 PM
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
That's not a good idea. Miami is nowhere near centrally located enough.
But Miami is most known and largest metropolitan area.
It's not often a good idea to concentrate all your power in the biggest metro area. Imagine how even more ignored the Panhandle would feel having the capital all the way in Miami.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:29:51 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:25:29 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 04:23:20 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:22:08 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2023, 08:35:17 PM
Back before Tallahassee became the capital Florida was broken up into two colonies, East Florida and West Florida. The capital of West Florida was Pensacola and the capital of East Florida was St. Augustine. This was in the 1820's and travel was pretty difficult back then so they became one and choose the halfway point Tallahassee as the new capital, which it remains today despite the state having grown and not being centrally located in the state. I often wondered why a city in that location is the capital so I looked into it.
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
That's not a good idea. Miami is nowhere near centrally located enough.
But Miami is most known and largest metropolitan area.
It's not often a good idea to concentrate all your power in the biggest metro area. Imagine how even more ignored the Panhandle would feel having the capital all the way in Miami.
Maybe Tallahassee would then be secondary capital.
Detroit used to be Michigan's capital but the capital was moved to Lansing to be more centrally located in the state. Back then Lansing was just a township in a pretty rural area. Now Lansing Township has isolated islands due to Lansing annexing land.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 07:18:36 AM
Detroit used to be Michigan's capital but the capital was moved to Lansing to be more centrally located in the state. Back then Lansing was just a township in a pretty rural area. Now Lansing Township has isolated islands due to Lansing annexing land.
Capital should be Detroit again!
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 07:19:52 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 07:18:36 AM
Detroit used to be Michigan's capital but the capital was moved to Lansing to be more centrally located in the state. Back then Lansing was just a township in a pretty rural area. Now Lansing Township has isolated islands due to Lansing annexing land.
Capital should be Detroit again!
Nope the capital should not be Detroit. The population center of Michigan is in Morrice which is a mere 20 miles from Lansing. Why would you want to put the capital anywhere else other than the population center of the state and it's also centrally located. Lansing is the perfect choice for Michigan's capital.
If Florida had to choose a new capital I'd agree with Lakeland. It's really close to the population center of the state. Perhaps Tampa or Orlando would work too. The population center is Lake Wales.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 08:09:39 AM
If Florida had to choose a new capital I'd agree with Lakeland. It's really close to the population center of the state. Perhaps Tampa or Orlando would work too. The population center is Lake Wales.
But Miami is the best city!!!
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 04:22:08 AM
Capital would be moved to Miami, which would expand to include entire Miami-Dade County.
You misspelled Miami—Jаde County.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 08:44:05 AM
But Miami is the best city!!!
Adding three exclamation points doesn't make us agree with you.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 08:44:05 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 08:09:39 AM
If Florida had to choose a new capital I'd agree with Lakeland. It's really close to the population center of the state. Perhaps Tampa or Orlando would work too. The population center is Lake Wales.
But Miami is the best city!!!
Miami wouldn't work as a state capital.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 09:33:44 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 08:44:05 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 08:09:39 AM
If Florida had to choose a new capital I'd agree with Lakeland. It's really close to the population center of the state. Perhaps Tampa or Orlando would work too. The population center is Lake Wales.
But Miami is the best city!!!
Miami wouldn't work as a state capital.
Why not?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 09:47:42 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 09:33:44 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 08:44:05 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 08:09:39 AM
If Florida had to choose a new capital I'd agree with Lakeland. It's really close to the population center of the state. Perhaps Tampa or Orlando would work too. The population center is Lake Wales.
But Miami is the best city!!!
Miami wouldn't work as a state capital.
Why not?
Nowhere near the center of the state.
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Beacuse it is largest metropolitan area and most famous city.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Largest Finnish population? Most saunas? Seasonal flights to Helsinki?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Beacuse it is largest metropolitan area and most famous city.
And the metro population qualifies it has an ideal state capital because why? I'd argue Orlando and Key West have just as big of a claim to "most famous."
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 10:30:31 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Largest Finnish population? Most saunas? Seasonal flights to Helsinki?
When I think Florida, I think Miami first.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 10:30:31 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Largest Finnish population? Most saunas? Seasonal flights to Helsinki?
When I think Florida, I think Miami first.
Question, have you ever been to Florida?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 11:15:40 AM
When I think Florida, I think Miami first.
When I think Morocco, I think Casablanca first. Therefore Casablanca should be the seat of government?
When I think Switzerland, I think Zürich first. Therefore Zürich should be the seat of government?
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
When I think Colombia, I think Cartagena first. Therefore Cartagena should be the seat of government?
When I think Mali, I think Timbuktu first. Therefore Timbuktu should be the seat of government?
When I think Algeria, I think Hippo Regius first. Therefore Annaba should be the seat of government?
What city you think of first isn't necessarily the city that should be the capital. What city is most famous isn't necessarily the city that should be the capital.
That's really what you think of first for Algeria? Man, you're a nerd. :D
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:08:47 PM
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
I think of Constantinople
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:08:47 PM
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 24, 2023, 12:15:58 PM
I think of Constantinople
İstanbul was once Constantinople.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:08:47 PM
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 24, 2023, 12:15:58 PM
I think of Constantinople
İstanbul was once Constantinople.
And once Byzantium.
Aw, man, you ruined it.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 12:13:32 PM
That's really what you think of first for Algeria? Man, you're a nerd. :D
Well, actually, I first think Paris, because of the '95 terrorist bombings... But then I think of Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis. Don't you?
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:41:16 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 24, 2023, 12:13:32 PM
That's really what you think of first for Algeria? Man, you're a nerd. :D
Well, actually, I first think Paris, because of the '95 terrorist bombings... But then I think of Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis. Don't you?
For cities, I just think of Algiers and Oran, the only two cities I know without looking at a map. In reality, I think about Riyad Mahrez and Zinedine Zidane, the former being the best current Algerian soccer player and the latter being the best from Algerian heritage (played for France).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 11:00:10 AM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 10:29:49 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Beacuse it is largest metropolitan area and most famous city.
And the metro population qualifies it has an ideal state capital because why? I'd argue Orlando and Key West have just as big of a claim to "most famous."
Not to agree with him, but Miami probably
is the most famous city in Florida.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:08:47 PM
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 24, 2023, 12:15:58 PM
I think of Constantinople
İstanbul was once Constantinople.
Been a long time gone, Constantinople...
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Yes it is needed. Better do it quick before MMM paves Souky over for his mew interstates.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Maybe Tallahassee would then be secondary capital.
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 02:00:53 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Maybe Tallahassee would then be secondary capital.
Florida State Soukys
When I think of Colorado, I think of Limon first. Now what?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 24, 2023, 03:20:55 PM
When I think of Colorado, I think of Limon first. Now what?
Sorry Harrisburg, Breezwood is now the capital of Pennsylvania.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 03:24:08 PM
Sorry Harrisburg, Breezwood is now the capital of Pennsylvania.
Nah. Punxsutawney for the win.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Naah, Souky is going to be like Springfield. There will be many Souky's. Several of them will be state capitals.
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on February 24, 2023, 01:33:13 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:31:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 24, 2023, 12:08:47 PM
When I think Turkey, I think İstanbul first. Therefore İstanbul should be the seat of government?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 24, 2023, 12:15:58 PM
I think of Constantinople
İstanbul was once Constantinople.
Been a long time gone, Constantinople...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo0X77OBJUg
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Yes it is needed. Better do it quick before MMM paves Souky over for his mew interstates.
How did you know I was a cat lover?
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Yes it is needed. Better do it quick before MMM paves Souky over for his mew interstates.
How did you know I was a cat lover?
There is an easy joke there that I'm tempted to make.
I think that a lot of the people on here who have followed the life and times of MMM will know what it is.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 10:29:49 AM
Beacuse it is largest metropolitan area and most famous city.
Hate to be a party pooper, but Jacksonville is both the largest city and metro area in Florida, and Orlando, Daytona and St. Augustine probably outrank Miami in fame. And none of that is meant to degrade Miami, where I worked on many projects and am still very fond of.
Jacksonville is indeed the largest city, but Miami is definitely the most populous metro and it's not even close. The Tampa Bay area is next and it only has half of that of Miami's metro.
Not saying one is more "famous" than the others, just clearing some things up.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 24, 2023, 08:38:01 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 10:07:10 AM
I'll bite, why does Poiponen think Miami is the best city in Florida?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 24, 2023, 10:29:49 AM
Beacuse it is largest metropolitan area and most famous city.
Hate to be a party pooper, but Jacksonville is both the largest city and metro area in Florida, and Orlando, Daytona and St. Augustine probably outrank Miami in fame. And none of that is meant to degrade Miami, where I worked on many projects and am still very fond of.
Jacksonville is not the largest metro area in Florida. That'd be Miami.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 24, 2023, 05:38:43 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 24, 2023, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 24, 2023, 01:37:29 PM
When I think of Finland, I think of Poiponen13 first. Therefore Souky should be the capital of Finland.
Souky is already the Canadian SSR capital. Are you saying the Canadian SSR should invade Finland? I think this is needed.
Yes it is needed. Better do it quick before MMM paves Souky over for his mew interstates.
How did you know I was a cat lover?
Mew is a pokemon.
Why did Constantinople get the works?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 24, 2023, 08:38:01 PM
Hate to be a party pooper, but Jacksonville is both the largest city and metro area in Florida, and Orlando, Daytona and St. Augustine probably outrank Miami in fame. And none of that is meant to degrade Miami, where I worked on many projects and am still very fond of.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 09:33:37 PM
Jacksonville is not the largest metro area in Florida. That'd be Miami.
I stand corrected. That's what I get for checking the numbers after a very long day. That list had the Jacksonville Metro listed at #12, but the list was sorted on city population. Miami-Dade had a population of 2,701,767 in the 2020 Census (not counting the Fort Lauderdale Metro) and Jacksonville had 1,605,848. Both are way bigger than when I worked in lived in them.
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
Imagine how well that would work out for states that have one urban or a couple large urban area but are mostly rural? Hard to have a representative Capital when it represents only the dense urban core.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Make Miami Florida's largest city with annexing all suburbs in Miami-Dade County. Then make it also a capital.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:51:55 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Make Miami Florida's largest city with annexing all suburbs in Miami-Dade County. Then make it also a capital.
Can we consolidate you with MMM to make PoiponMMM?
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:51:55 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Make Miami Florida's largest city with annexing all suburbs in Miami-Dade County. Then make it also a capital.
Have Sweden annex Finland and make Stockholm its capital.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 02:28:25 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:51:55 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Make Miami Florida's largest city with annexing all suburbs in Miami-Dade County. Then make it also a capital.
Have Sweden annex Finland and make Stockholm its capital.
Historically accurate, as well.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
How would that work when the population shifts between the years? Between the 2010 and 2020 censuses, three states had a change in their largest city:
Alabama: Birmingham -> Huntsville
South Carolina: Columbia -> Charleston
Tennessee: Memphis -> Nashville
So would the state capitals have to pick up and move in each of those instances?
And what if they shift back in the 2030 census? As an example, Wyoming has had Cheyenne as its largest city from 1870 to the present - except for 1980 when it was Casper. Would there have been a ten year temporary move of the capital?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 02:28:25 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:51:55 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on February 25, 2023, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 25, 2023, 12:31:21 PM
Lots of states and countries have the capital elsewhere than in the largest city. It reduces the influence the large companies and wealthy have on national policy, and reduces the cost of real estate in both the capital and commercial center.
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
So you're on board with Jacksonville for Florida's capital now. Cool.
Make Miami Florida's largest city with annexing all suburbs in Miami-Dade County. Then make it also a capital.
Have Sweden annex Finland and make Stockholm its capital.
'cause that worked out so well last time.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 07:18:36 AM
Detroit used to be Michigan's capital but the capital was moved to Lansing to be more centrally located in the state. Back then Lansing was just a township in a pretty rural area. Now Lansing Township has isolated islands due to Lansing annexing land.
The capital was moved out of Detroit because it was considered a bad idea to have the state capital on the border next to a foreign, and at the time, hostile power. When Michigan gained statehood in 1837, memories of the Siege of Detroit in 1812 weren't that far in the past yet, and we weren't yet on the best of terms with the British who controlled the other side of the Detroit River. The state constitution of 1835 contained a requirement that the capital move ten years after statehood, and it even gave the legislature power to adjourn to another city after its first meeting.
As for the choice of Lansing, there were several candidates, including Marshall (they built a governor's mansion to entice selection), Ann Arbor (they were awarded the university as a consolation prize) and Jackson (awarded the state prison as a consolation prize). Members of the state house chose Lansing as a way to avoid picking between the various options. At the time of selection, there really wasn't a town there. In fact, Lansing had been a real estate scam in 1835. The Biddle Brothers from Lansing, New York, sold plots in "Biddle City" to people back home claiming it had a church, academic square and all these blocks built. Instead it was a swampy area prone to flooding. Only some 20 people lived there until it was selected as the state capital 12 years later. After it was selected, the community was renamed the Village of Michigan for a short period before returning to Lansing before incorporation as a city in thee 1850s.
As for its centrality, it might be central to the population now, but it's rather distant from some parts of the state. A location more geographically central to the state as a whole wouldn't have made much more sense in the 1840s considering much of the interior of the Lower Peninsula was marked on maps of the time as "impenetrable swamp".
Quote from: Rothman on November 15, 2022, 01:43:19 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on November 15, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
Why in most states, state capital is not same as its largest city? For example, all of Australia's states and territories have their largest city as capital, as well as most European countries.
Canberra...
It's the largest city in the ACT.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 25, 2023, 05:19:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 24, 2023, 07:18:36 AM
Detroit used to be Michigan's capital but the capital was moved to Lansing to be more centrally located in the state. Back then Lansing was just a township in a pretty rural area. Now Lansing Township has isolated islands due to Lansing annexing land.
The capital was moved out of Detroit because it was considered a bad idea to have the state capital on the border next to a foreign, and at the time, hostile power. When Michigan gained statehood in 1837, memories of the Siege of Detroit in 1812 weren't that far in the past yet, and we weren't yet on the best of terms with the British who controlled the other side of the Detroit River. The state constitution of 1835 contained a requirement that the capital move ten years after statehood, and it even gave the legislature power to adjourn to another city after its first meeting.
As for the choice of Lansing, there were several candidates, including Marshall (they built a governor's mansion to entice selection), Ann Arbor (they were awarded the university as a consolation prize) and Jackson (awarded the state prison as a consolation prize). Members of the state house chose Lansing as a way to avoid picking between the various options. At the time of selection, there really wasn't a town there. In fact, Lansing had been a real estate scam in 1835. The Biddle Brothers from Lansing, New York, sold plots in "Biddle City" to people back home claiming it had a church, academic square and all these blocks built. Instead it was a swampy area prone to flooding. Only some 20 people lived there until it was selected as the state capital 12 years later. After it was selected, the community was renamed the Village of Michigan for a short period before returning to Lansing before incorporation as a city in thee 1850s.
As for its centrality, it might be central to the population now, but it's rather distant from some parts of the state. A location more geographically central to the state as a whole wouldn't have made much more sense in the 1840s considering much of the interior of the Lower Peninsula was marked on maps of the time as "impenetrable swamp".
Yes I'm aware of that
Quote from: Road Hog on February 25, 2023, 02:37:10 AM
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That's nobody's business but the Turks.
Los Angeles should be California's capital. And Portland Oregon's, as wellas Seattle Washington's.
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move? That's ridiculous and so is thinking that capital's should be in the largest city.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move? That's ridiculous and so is thinking that capital's should be in the largest city.
Most European countries have their capital as largest city. When I first looked at the map with US state capitals, I started to think that those states have wrong capitals.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move? That's ridiculous and so is thinking that capital's should be in the largest city.
Most European countries have their capital as largest city. When I first looked at the map with US state capitals, I started to think that those states have wrong capitals.
Good for Europe. The US isn't Europe.
I think for the most part the capital of each state is where it should be. Only 18 state capitals are also the largest city in their state so there are more capitals that aren't the largest city in the state than are.
Capitols are more based on where the executive offices are, which often outdate the newer cities in many cases. They could also be the sites of some important war victory or where key military development occurred in relation to said war. Essentially, the seat of political/power determines it, not population size or the biggest cities. Albany NY, for example, houses the state legislature and its central location on the Hudson Valley also plays a role, but having been there you wouldn't expect it to be the capital. Same for Harrisburg PA.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 11:07:47 AM
Los Angeles should be California's capital. And Portland Oregon's, as wellas Seattle Washington's.
No they shouldn't. It's a good idea for the state capital to be AWAY from the largest commercial city, so that you don't have state government and commercial space competing for the same real estate to such a large degree. And to avoid big business having an easy time lobbying for what they want, while the rest of the state has worse access. Also in the cases of Sacramento and Salem putting the capital in a more central location in the state.
Lots of newer countries - United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc. etc., have their national capitals in cities that are not the largest city in the country as well.
Quote from: kkt on February 26, 2023, 12:56:27 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 26, 2023, 11:07:47 AM
Los Angeles should be California's capital. And Portland Oregon's, as wellas Seattle Washington's.
No they shouldn't. It's a good idea for the state capital to be AWAY from the largest commercial city, so that you don't have state government and commercial space competing for the same real estate to such a large degree. And to avoid big business having an easy time lobbying for what they want, while the rest of the state has worse access. Also in the cases of Sacramento and Salem putting the capital in a more central location in the state.
Lots of newer countries - United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc. etc., have their national capitals in cities that are not the largest city in the country as well.
Irony being when Sacramento was selected as the current capital it was the central hub for mining economic activity in California. It became the economic center of railroad activity the following two decades. The nice central location today really continues to help Sacramento be the ideal location for the state capital.
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2023, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
The Twin Cities aren't at the very edge of their state.
Quote from: Takumi on February 26, 2023, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2023, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
The Twin Cities aren't at the very edge of their state.
They kinda are, as they are very close to Wisconsin.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on February 26, 2023, 04:37:31 PM
Quote from: Takumi on February 26, 2023, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2023, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
The Twin Cities aren't at the very edge of their state.
They kinda are, as they are very close to Wisconsin.
Yeah. They have two Wisconsin counties in the metro. I grew up in the metro (on the Minnesota side) and lived 3.5 miles as the crow flies from the state line.
Quote from: Takumi on February 26, 2023, 04:11:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2023, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
The Twin Cities aren't at the very edge of their state.
So much for Hudson, WI...
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2023, 01:08:33 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
St. Paul was chosen over the larger and adjacent Minneapolis.
St. Paul was the larger city when it was designated the capital of Minnesota Territory and later the formalized state.
If the capital of a division has to be at the center of the state then
Alaska: Fairbanks instead of Juneau (Anchorage is too far south)
Florida: Orlando
Georgia: Macon
Idaho has nothing in the middle so Boise is good
Illinois might have Springfield, but most state government business happens in Chicago
Kansas: Salina or Wichita
Louisiana: Alexandria
Maine's got too much nothing in the north so it's fine
Maryland: Baltimore
Massachusetts: Springfield (Though with the state's size Boston's not far from day trip distance
Michigan: Split the state and make Marquette the capitol of the state of Superior
Minnesota: St. Cloud - too much barren in the north
Montana - iffy but keep Helena
Nebraska: Kearney or Grand Island are close
Nevada: too much nothing in the middle - keep Carson
Pennsylvania - keep Harrisburg
Utah has too much nothing in south half - so SLC is good
Washington: Maybe Yakima?
Wisconsin: Marginal, but maybe Portage or the Dells?
Wyoming: Casper perhaps
British Columbia has way too much nothing north of the Yellowhead - Maybe Kamloops. The bulk of the population though is near Vancouver and Victoria so toss up between them.
The prairie Provinces both have the bulk of the population too far south so Edmonton, Regina (which rhymes with "fun") and the Peg are fine
Ontario's population is southeast so Toronto is fine.
Not much in the middle of Newfoundland island and nothing on Labrador mainland so St. John's works
Most of Yukon's population is Whitehorse.
Tossup for Yellowknife in NWT.
Quote from: SSOWorld on February 26, 2023, 09:36:50 PM
If the capital of a division has to be at the center of the state then
Alaska: Fairbanks instead of Juneau (Anchorage is too far south)
Florida: Orlando
Georgia: Macon
Idaho has nothing in the middle so Boise is good
Illinois might have Springfield, but most state government business happens in Chicago
Kansas: Salina or Wichita
Louisiana: Alexandria
Maine's got too much nothing in the north so it's fine
Maryland: Baltimore
Massachusetts: Springfield (Though with the state's size Boston's not far from day trip distance
Michigan: Split the state and make Marquette the capitol of the state of Superior
Minnesota: St. Cloud - too much barren in the north
Montana - iffy but keep Helena
Nebraska: Kearney or Grand Island are close
Nevada: too much nothing in the middle - keep Carson
Pennsylvania - keep Harrisburg
Utah has too much nothing in south half - so SLC is good
Washington: Maybe Yakima?
Wisconsin: Marginal, but maybe Portage or the Dells?
Wyoming: Casper perhaps
British Columbia has way too much nothing north of the Yellowhead - Maybe Kamloops. The bulk of the population though is near Vancouver and Victoria so toss up between them.
The prairie Provinces both have the bulk of the population too far south so Edmonton, Regina (which rhymes with "fun") and the Peg are fine
Ontario's population is southeast so Toronto is fine.
Not much in the middle of Newfoundland island and nothing on Labrador mainland so St. John's works
Most of Yukon's population is Whitehorse.
Tossup for Yellowknife in NWT.
For Massachusetts, Worcester works better as it is closer to the states center of population.
For Michigan, Lansing works and the state will never be divided into two. The center of population is located in Morrice about 25 miles NE of Lansing so Lansing is pretty close to the center of population. That wasn't the case when it was selected as the state capital, it is in the center of the state though, although it's pretty far south about 130 miles south of the actual center of the state. The center of the Lower Peninsula is in St. Louis and they make a big deal about being located in the center of the mitten. I'm not 100% sure where the geographic center of the U.P. is but taking guesses I'm assuming it's somewhere between Sawyer Air Force Base and Trenary.
In 1880 the center of population was in Clinton County before moving north to Gratiot County for a few decades. When the auto industry started Detroit's boom the center of population started shifting toward Detroit in about 1910. In 2020 Michigan's center of population shifted 0.8 miles SW indicating that Michigan's population shifted slightly SW in the last decade.
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
Richmond is the number one city in my thoughts. In Florida it is Miami, but largest city in most states.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on February 26, 2023, 01:02:50 PM
It is arbitrary to some degree, such as PA where it would probably make more sense for it to be Pittsburg then Harrisburg, even if neither option includes Philadelphia. The thing is the major cities tend to spring up near the water for trading ports and harbors, so they will almost never be centrally located.
Philadelphia should be PA's capital, because it is the largest city.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 27, 2023, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
Richmond is the number one city in my thoughts. In Florida it is Miami, but largest city in most states.
So you don't actually want the largest city. You want whatever city you think is the largest. That makes sense.
Quote from: kirbykart on February 27, 2023, 01:53:21 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 27, 2023, 01:40:51 PM
Quote from: plain on February 26, 2023, 01:07:52 PM
I don't even want to imagine Virginia Beach being the capital of Virginia.
Richmond is the number one city in my thoughts. In Florida it is Miami, but largest city in most states.
So you don't actually want the largest city. You want whatever city you think is the largest. That makes sense.
Yes. Because Birmingham is no longer Alabama's largest city, I think it as number one, and thus should be capital.
So basically the United States should just change the capitals of its states to whatever a random Finn says based systematically on no real criterion at all. Got it.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
Quote from: dlsterner on February 25, 2023, 03:27:10 PM
How would that work when the population shifts between the years ... And what if they shift back ... ?
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move?
Poiponen13: Why do you refuse to answer this question?
If one city outgrows the capital, should all the government buildings in one capital be torn down, then reconstructed in the new city?
Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2023, 02:00:17 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
Quote from: dlsterner on February 25, 2023, 03:27:10 PM
How would that work when the population shifts between the years ... And what if they shift back ... ?
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move?
Poiponen13: Why do you refuse to answer this question?
If one city outgrows the capital, should all the government buildings in one capital be torn down, then reconstructed in the new city?
It's simple. Build the buildings on wheels and when the capital city changes, just haul the buildings down the road to the new capital.
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Yes, we did. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0
Interestingly, reply #4 of
that thread says it's a repeat, although I don't remember the one before that.
Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2023, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Yes, we did. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0
Interestingly, reply #4 of that thread says it's a repeat, although I don't remember the one before that.
On top of that, moving any state capital, with the possible exception of Alaska, isn't realistic logistically.
Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2023, 02:00:17 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on February 25, 2023, 12:46:32 PM
I think that every state should have its largest city as capital.
Quote from: dlsterner on February 25, 2023, 03:27:10 PM
How would that work when the population shifts between the years ... And what if they shift back ... ?
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 26, 2023, 11:17:40 AM
So when the largest city in a state changes the capital should move?
Poiponen13: Why do you refuse to answer this question?
If one city outgrows the capital, should all the government buildings in one capital be torn down, then reconstructed in the new city?
Too much work. Instead, borrow MMM's helicopters and grappling hooks and airlift the buildings to the new capital site.
And
Poiponen13: I want to hear the answer to that question as well. Such as with my example of Wyoming - the largest city was Cheyenne for 100 years, but then it became Casper in the 1980 census, only to revert to Cheyenne ever since.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 27, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2023, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Yes, we did. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0
Interestingly, reply #4 of that thread says it's a repeat, although I don't remember the one before that.
On top of that, moving any state capital, with the possible exception of Alaska, isn't realistic logistically.
It could be done. Build some new buildings for the legislature, executive, and major agencies, hire some trucks... Moving capitals has been done before. It would be expensive and add little to the lives of most of the state's residents, but possible.
Quote from: kphoger on February 27, 2023, 02:00:17 PM
If one city outgrows the capital, should all the government buildings in one capital be torn down, then reconstructed in the new city?
Sounds like a lesson from West Virginia History class.
Here in Texas, we have a tradition called "governor for a day." Under the constitution the if the governor and lieutenant governor are absent from the state, then the president pro tem of the senate holds to power of governor. Once in each president pro tem's tenure, the governor and lieutenant governor leave the state so that this senior senator can be governor for the day. This is another place in which the Texas Constitution isn't well thought out, as the president is the only person who can hold the power of the governor while out of state. The actual governor and lieutenant governor can't, but the constitution never says anything about the president pro tem leaving the state, so that's where the chain stops.
In this spirit, I suggest that different cities could be "capital for a day." Outside of legislative sessions, once each year a different city could be pronounced the official state capital. The governor and other executive and legislative officials and supreme court justice or two (and court of criminal appeals judge, in Texas and Oklahoma) would visit. If required to reside in the state capital, the governor would stay in a hotel room.
Quote from: kkt on February 27, 2023, 05:30:24 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 27, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2023, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Yes, we did. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0
Interestingly, reply #4 of that thread says it's a repeat, although I don't remember the one before that.
On top of that, moving any state capital, with the possible exception of Alaska, isn't realistic logistically.
It could be done. Build some new buildings for the legislature, executive, and major agencies, hire some trucks... Moving capitals has been done before. It would be expensive and add little to the lives of most of the state's residents, but possible.
It's been done before, but when is the most recent occurrence? The number of employees and buildings making up state capitals today is much more extensive than 100 years ago.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
It's simple. Build the buildings on wheels and when the capital city changes, just haul the buildings down the road to the new capital.
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S09E22/1u7aOzc5LMKngjB_4CnmKnkiJqs=.gif)
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 28, 2023, 07:17:10 AM
Quote from: kkt on February 27, 2023, 05:30:24 PM
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 27, 2023, 03:21:38 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 27, 2023, 02:17:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
Seriously, didn't we have a discussion on geographical and population centers of each state a few months ago and discuss if the capital city should be one of those locations?
Yes, we did. https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=32388.0
Interestingly, reply #4 of that thread says it's a repeat, although I don't remember the one before that.
On top of that, moving any state capital, with the possible exception of Alaska, isn't realistic logistically.
It could be done. Build some new buildings for the legislature, executive, and major agencies, hire some trucks... Moving capitals has been done before. It would be expensive and add little to the lives of most of the state's residents, but possible.
It's been done before, but when is the most recent occurrence? The number of employees and buildings making up state capitals today is much more extensive than 100 years ago.
Indonesia is currently working on it.
Quote from: wxfree on February 28, 2023, 12:10:45 AM
Here in Texas, we have a tradition called "governor for a day." Under the constitution the if the governor and lieutenant governor are absent from the state, then the president pro tem of the senate holds to power of governor. Once in each president pro tem's tenure, the governor and lieutenant governor leave the state so that this senior senator can be governor for the day. This is another place in which the Texas Constitution isn't well thought out, as the president is the only person who can hold the power of the governor while out of state. The actual governor and lieutenant governor can't, but the constitution never says anything about the president pro tem leaving the state, so that's where the chain stops.
In this spirit, I suggest that different cities could be "capital for a day." Outside of legislative sessions, once each year a different city could be pronounced the official state capital. The governor and other executive and legislative officials and supreme court justice or two (and court of criminal appeals judge, in Texas and Oklahoma) would visit. If required to reside in the state capital, the governor would stay in a hotel room.
Michigan has a similar tradition, of sorts. The gubernatorial line of succession is lieutenant governor, then secretary of state and finally attorney general. A bill championed by Lt. Gov. Calley in the legislature was signed into law by him, and another championed by Sec. of State Johnson was signed into law by her, through the use of strategic absences by the appropriate office holders.
As for the capital, the Michigan Supreme Court travels through the state from time to time to hear cases, as do panels of the Court of Appeals. It's not every year, but they do make it to Marquette occasionally to hear cases of local import to the area. Other bodies hold meetings up here; the Michigan Independent Citizens Redistricting Commission held hearings related to redistricting throughout the state, for instance. Expanding that practice a bit might be a great idea. Many officials already come up on an annual tour in August to coincide with the UP State Fair, so maybe they should do some actual business up here and make a UP city the de facto capital for a week or two. Maybe we only get a few committees instead of the full legislature.
As a side note, in days of yore, when the King picked up and moved about England, the court followed, meaning the capital effectively always followed the sovereign. While the Palace of Westminster undergoes upcoming renovations, there has been talk about moving the Commons and the Lords out of London on a temporary basis.
Quote from: wxfree on February 28, 2023, 12:10:45 AM
Here in Texas, we have a tradition called "governor for a day." Under the constitution the if the governor and lieutenant governor are absent from the state, then the president pro tem of the senate holds to power of governor. Once in each president pro tem's tenure, the governor and lieutenant governor leave the state so that this senior senator can be governor for the day. This is another place in which the Texas Constitution isn't well thought out, as the president is the only person who can hold the power of the governor while out of state. The actual governor and lieutenant governor can't, but the constitution never says anything about the president pro tem leaving the state, so that's where the chain stops.
In this spirit, I suggest that different cities could be "capital for a day." Outside of legislative sessions, once each year a different city could be pronounced the official state capital. The governor and other executive and legislative officials and supreme court justice or two (and court of criminal appeals judge, in Texas and Oklahoma) would visit. If required to reside in the state capital, the governor would stay in a hotel room.
Kentucky's Supreme Court has actually taken its show on the road, holding hearings and case arguments in various locations throughout the state.
As for who has the power when the governor is gone, Kentucky once had a requirement that the governor cede power to the lieutenant governor when the governor was absent from the state. For years, Kentucky elected those two offices separately (and in the late 1960s-early 1970s, we actually had a term where the governor was a Republican and the lieutenant was a Democrat.) But even when they were of the same party, there was no guarantee they were allies. Famously, once upon a time a Kentucky lieutenant governor called a special legislative session while the governor was out of the state. That got changed, and now that provision no longer applies. The governor can cede power to the lieutenant governor voluntarily, and I remember it happening when a governor needed to go under anesthesia for a medical procedure and the governor signed over power to the lieutenant governor while he was having the procedure done.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 28, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
Kentucky's Supreme Court has actually taken its show on the road, holding hearings and case arguments in various locations throughout the state.
California's Supreme Court kind of does that. Its headquarters are in San Francisco, but the court hears cases three months a year in Los Angeles, and also two months a year in the capital Sacramento.
Alaska's Supreme Court is headquartered in Anchorage, but also hears cases in the capital Juneau, Fairbanks, and sometimes other communities.
Canada's Nunavut Territory is more like Kentucky. The territory has only one courthouse, in the capital Iqaluit. But the justices fly out to other communities as needed, to hear cases in borrowed facilities.
Toronto should be Canada's capital and Sydney Australia's.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on March 01, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Toronto should be Canada's capital and Sydney Australia's.
Why? What is wrong with Ottawa?
Quote from: oscar on February 28, 2023, 05:46:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 28, 2023, 04:46:31 PM
Kentucky's Supreme Court has actually taken its show on the road, holding hearings and case arguments in various locations throughout the state.
California's Supreme Court kind of does that. Its headquarters are in San Francisco, but the court hears cases three months a year in Los Angeles, and also two months a year in the capital Sacramento.
Alaska's Supreme Court is headquartered in Anchorage, but also hears cases in the capital Juneau, Fairbanks, and sometimes other communities.
Canada's Nunavut Territory is more like Kentucky. The territory has only one courthouse, in the capital Iqaluit. But the justices fly out to other communities as needed, to hear cases in borrowed facilities.
Lousiana's Supreme Court hears its cases in New Orleans, and not Baton Rouge, after having moved back to the city in 2004.
Quote from: Poiponen13 on March 01, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Toronto should be Canada's capital and Sydney Australia's.
Toronto already thinks it's the centre of the universe, it doesn't need to be the federal capital too. :-D
Quote from: 7/8 on March 01, 2023, 04:02:48 PM
Quote from: Poiponen13 on March 01, 2023, 09:42:55 AM
Toronto should be Canada's capital and Sydney Australia's.
Toronto already thinks it's the centre of the universe, it doesn't need to be the federal capital too. :-D
And the same could be said of Sidney with regard to Canberra.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 28, 2023, 12:06:19 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 27, 2023, 02:15:44 PM
It's simple. Build the buildings on wheels and when the capital city changes, just haul the buildings down the road to the new capital.
(https://frinkiac.com/video/S09E22/1u7aOzc5LMKngjB_4CnmKnkiJqs=.gif)
I told ya not to turn around.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
It was far from the border and on defensible terrain. Seems pretty straight forward when the War of 1812 was still in living memory.
Not that far. A little farther than Montreal/Toronto, but still very close to the US Border.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:30:06 AM
Not that far. A little farther than Montreal/Toronto, but still very close to the US Border.
Look at a map of average annual temperatures in Canada and you just might find why it isn't further north.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on February 28, 2023, 07:17:10 AM
It's been done before, but when is the most recent occurrence? The number of employees and buildings making up state capitals today is much more extensive than 100 years ago.
That was us. The capital of Oklahoma was moved from Guthrie to Oklahoma City in 1910, three years after statehood.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:30:06 AM
Not that far. A little farther than Montreal/Toronto, but still very close to the US Border.
But it's not on waters that connect to the US. The navy couldn't come in and bombard it.
They even built a canal from Kingston to Ottawa so goods could be safely shipped without using the Ottawa River and St Lawrence River, thus avoiding any US interference.
Ottawa didn't become the capital until 1866 (just a year before Confederation, but following tensions between the US and Britain/Canada related to the US Civil War). Prior to that the British capital was in Kingston, Montreal, Toronto, Quebec, Toronto again and Quebec again.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 02, 2023, 12:28:37 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
It was far from the border and on defensible terrain. Seems pretty straight forward when the War of 1812 was still in living memory.
Another reason is that it's on the border between Ontario and Quebec, which have a rivalry due to being the two largest provinces and language/cultural differences (English vs. French Canada). It feels appropriate to have the capital region span those two provinces.
I'm getting lots of flashbacks from my Political Geography college class with this discussion. I recommend that some of you read a book on it.
Quote from: 7/8 on March 02, 2023, 09:08:24 AM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Another reason is that it's on the border between Ontario and Quebec, which have a rivalry due to being the two largest provinces and language/cultural differences (English vs. French Canada). It feels appropriate to have the capital region span those two provinces.
This is basically the entire reason Canada's capital is in Ottawa. Which is the same reason the US built a new city on the Potomac for a capital; to ease inter-regional tension. In the US, it was the whole north-south dynamic that ended spilling over into civil war anyway. For Canada, it's the British Canada vs. French Canada dynamic.
Lest we forget how close Quebec has come to voting for independence a few times since the mid-20th Century. If the capital had been Toronto during one of those referendums, I suspect that might have been enough to tip the balance in favor of an independent Quebecois nation. Resentment is a big motivator for that type of vote.
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Ottawa was a compromise between the Toronto and Montreal factions.
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Ottawa was a compromise between the Toronto and Montreal factions.
I know it wasn't as populated back then, but fuck Western Canada I guess.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 02:00:14 PM
I know it wasn't as populated back then, but fuck Western Canada I guess.
That was back in 1857. Nothing west of Ontario was even a province of Canada yet.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Ottawa was a compromise between the Toronto and Montreal factions.
I know it wasn't as populated back then, but fuck Western Canada I guess.
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Ottawa was a compromise between the Toronto and Montreal factions.
I know it wasn't as populated back then, but fuck Western Canada I guess.
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
AKA Spain and randon unexplored territory at the time. But I actually didn't know that Western Canada wasn't part of Canada in 1857. You learn something new every day.
Alberta and Saskatchewan didn't confederate until the U.S. already had 45 states. Hell, Canada didn't exist until the U.S. had 37 states.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 02:00:14 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: MultiMillionMiler on March 02, 2023, 12:11:28 AM
I honestly have no idea why Ottawa is Canada's Capital. Even if its not Toronto it should at least be Montreal.
Ottawa was a compromise between the Toronto and Montreal factions.
I know it wasn't as populated back then, but fuck Western Canada I guess.
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
It was 1780 or so when they decided to make DC out of bits of territory ceded from Maryland and Virginia. There was no western USA then, not even as territory. Louisiana Purchase was 1803, Louis and Clark expedition 1804-1806.
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
It was 1780 or so when they decided to make DC out of bits of territory ceded from Maryland and Virginia. There was no western USA then, not even as territory. Louisiana Purchase was 1803, Louis and Clark expedition 1804-1806.
You missed the invisible [/sarc] tag.
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2023, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
It was 1780 or so when they decided to make DC out of bits of territory ceded from Maryland and Virginia. There was no western USA then, not even as territory. Louisiana Purchase was 1803, Louis and Clark expedition 1804-1806.
You missed the invisible [/sarc] tag.
sorry :) there's so much ignorance running through the board it's hard to see sarcasm...
I think I told this story recently, but the Minnesota Territory legislature approved a bill to move the capital from St. Paul to St. Peter in south central Minnesota. An opposed legislator stole the physical bill before it could be signed by the territorial governor and hid with it until the session ended preventing the move.
However the end of the story is much less exciting. The legislature tried again, and this time it passed without incident and was signed by the territorial governor. However, the territorial court struck it down saying the move had to be approved by popular referendum, not the legislature, so St. Paul was once again saved as the capital city (and ultimately made Joe Rolette's antics to be in vain other than as a legendary story).
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 02, 2023, 03:19:44 PM
I think I told this story recently, but the Minnesota Territory legislature approved a bill to move the capital from St. Paul to St. Peter in south central Minnesota. An opposed legislator stole the physical bill before it could be signed by the territorial governor and hid with it until the session ended preventing the move.
However the end of the story is much less exciting. The legislature tried again, and this time it passed without incident and was signed by the territorial governor. However, the territorial court struck it down saying the move had to be approved by popular referendum, not the legislature, so St. Paul was once again saved as the capital city (and ultimately made Joe Rolette's antics to be in vain other than as a legendary story).
Wonder how the interstate highway system would change if the move suceeded. My guess is that I-35 follows US 169 south of the Twin Cities instead.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on March 02, 2023, 03:27:09 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on March 02, 2023, 03:19:44 PM
I think I told this story recently, but the Minnesota Territory legislature approved a bill to move the capital from St. Paul to St. Peter in south central Minnesota. An opposed legislator stole the physical bill before it could be signed by the territorial governor and hid with it until the session ended preventing the move.
However the end of the story is much less exciting. The legislature tried again, and this time it passed without incident and was signed by the territorial governor. However, the territorial court struck it down saying the move had to be approved by popular referendum, not the legislature, so St. Paul was once again saved as the capital city (and ultimately made Joe Rolette's antics to be in vain other than as a legendary story).
Wonder how the interstate highway system would change if the move suceeded. My guess is that I-35 follows US 169 south of the Twin Cities instead.
It would be interesting to think of I-35 following something closer to the current IA 17 corridor and meeting I-80 where the duplex flips from N/S to E/W on the west side of Des Moines at the IA 141 interchange.
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2023, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
It was 1780 or so when they decided to make DC out of bits of territory ceded from Maryland and Virginia. There was no western USA then, not even as territory. Louisiana Purchase was 1803, Louis and Clark expedition 1804-1806.
You missed the invisible [/sarc] tag.
sorry :) there's so much ignorance running through the board it's hard to see sarcasm...
You typically just have to look who the poster is. If it is
kphoger or me, assume sarcasm.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:04:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 02, 2023, 03:02:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 02, 2023, 03:00:15 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on March 02, 2023, 02:37:24 PM
No different than Washington being "on the east coast". Fuck western U.S.A.
It was 1780 or so when they decided to make DC out of bits of territory ceded from Maryland and Virginia. There was no western USA then, not even as territory. Louisiana Purchase was 1803, Louis and Clark expedition 1804-1806.
You missed the invisible [/sarc] tag.
sorry :) there's so much ignorance running through the board it's hard to see sarcasm...
You typically just have to look who the poster is. If it is kphoger or me, assume sarcasm.
Yeah, I never post anything sarcastic.