Is it frugality... or extreme cheapskate?

[CtrlAltDel]

Nope!  Not for this debt forgiveness action.  It is specifically exempt from federal income tax (thanks to ARPA, supposedly, though I haven't seen chapter and verse cited).  But there is the potential for state income tax liability.

SEC. 9675. MODIFICATION OF TREATMENT OF STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS.

    (a) In General.--Section 108(f) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986
is amended by striking paragraph (5) and inserting the following:
            ``(5) Special rule for discharges in 2021 through 2025.--
        Gross income does not include any amount which (but for this
        subsection) would be includible in gross income by reason of the
        discharge (in whole or in part) after December 31, 2020, and
        before January 1, 2026, of--
                    ``(A) any loan provided expressly for postsecondary
                educational expenses, regardless of whether provided
                through the educational institution or directly to the
                borrower, if such loan was made, insured, or guaranteed
                by--
                          ``(i) the United States, or an instrumentality
                      or agency thereof,
                          ``(ii) a State, territory, or possession of
                      the United States, or the District of Columbia, or
                      any political subdivision thereof, or
                          ``(iii) an eligible educational institution
                      (as defined in section 25A),
                    ``(B) any private education loan (as defined in
                section 140(a)(7) of the Truth in Lending Act),
                    ``(C) any loan made by any educational organization
                described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) if such loan is
                made--
                          ``(i) pursuant to an agreement with any entity
                      described in subparagraph (A) or any private
                      education lender (as defined in section 140(a) of
                      the Truth in Lending Act) under which the funds
                      from which the loan was made were provided to such
                      educational organization, or
                          ``(ii) pursuant to a program of such
                      educational organization which is designed to
                      encourage its students to serve in occupations
                      with unmet needs or in areas with unmet needs and
                      under which the services provided by the students
                      (or former students) are for or under the
                      direction of a governmental unit or an
                      organization described in section 501(c)(3) and
                      exempt from tax under section 501(a), or
                    ``(D) any loan made by an educational organization
                described in section 170(b)(1)(A)(ii) or by an
                organization exempt from tax under section 501(a) to
                refinance a loan to an individual to assist the
                individual in attending any such educational
                organization but only if the refinancing loan is
                pursuant to a program of the refinancing organization
                which is designed as described in subparagraph (C)(ii).
        The preceding sentence shall not apply to the discharge of a
        loan made by an organization described in subparagraph (C) or
        made by a private education lender (as defined in section
        140(a)(7) of the Truth in Lending Act) if the discharge is on
        account of services performed for either such organization or
        for such private education lender.''.

    (b) <>  Effective Date.--The amendment made by
this section shall apply to discharges of loans after December 31, 2020.

[Scott5114]

My understanding of this is that all of the cases against the program are weak, because the standing of the plaintiffs have been weak. That is, in order to be able to bring a case to court, the plaintiff must be able to demonstrate that they were harmed in some tangible way by the defendant's actions. That is kind of hard to do with "the government is not collecting money it is owed", especially because courts have ruled in the past that merely being a taxpayer does not grant an entity standing in cases having to do with the government spending (or in this case, not collecting) tax money. In this case, the supposed aggrieved parties are people who were denied access to the program, and resolving "these people couldn't get into the program" with the relief of "destroy the entire program so nobody can get into it" is...well, you insert your own adjective.

So Judge Pittman is probably out of line here in striking the program down. The government has a crystal-clear path here to getting his ruling thrown out here on technical grounds, i.e. asking the Fifth Circuit to rule on standing rather than the merits of the case itself, thus hopefully sidestepping any political opinions of the judges themselves. In order to rule against the government and allow the throw-out to stand, the Fifth Circuit basically has to put its fingers in its ears and go "la la la la la I've never seen a law book before what is precedent".

I'd welcome input from those with actual legal experience here in case I've gotten any of the details wrong.

[Rothman]

Given upper court rulings lately that have totally ignored precedent in favor of current political dogma...don't give me hope.

[US 89]

I wonder if this would have substantially changed midterm election results had it been announced a week earlier.

[Scott5114]

I wonder if this would have substantially changed midterm election results had it been announced a week earlier.

Doubtful–there have already been a few "district court strikes it down and circuit court reverses the strike-down" cycles before the elections.

[kkt]

Regarding the discussion of buying a home with cash, I feel like living around Boston that buying a house with cash is so foreign due to needing to be fairly well off to do so.

Heck I just had a former neighbor refinance a 30 yr. mortgage on his condo at age 70. The bank didn't bat an eye that he has pretty much a 100% chance of not being alive by the end.

Ah, the "mort" in "mortgage" means death.  That means unlike most debts if you die still owing some one it, your heirs still have to pay it or lose the property.

[ZLoth]

Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

[mgk920]

A common theme among suburban townships around here is their extreme cheapness when it comes to their infrastructures.  Many of their streets are downright awful.  They will be in a real world of hurt when their late 20 century tax bases (ie, the big mall and the Big Box™ retailers. etc) go away and they can no longer ignore their falling apart streets.  And they thought that they were being smart and frugal....

Mike

[zachary_amaryllis]

Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

This stuff makes me insane(r). My mom will spend 20 minutes with a rubber scraper to get 1/4 teaspoon of mayo out of what normal people would consider an empty jar. We had to get a new fridge to replace the one she's had since 1978. She wanted to get it repaired. I don't know a lot, but it seems like something that old... yeah.
Very similar argument.

[ZLoth]

Sigh.... this has resulted in an argument between my mother and I today...

We previously had a George Foreman GR10ABW Champ Grill with Bun Warmer that served us well for 15 years. However, the handle on the bun warmer broke off recently, and the lid hit the kitchen counter and put in a noticeable crack. Finding the replacement parts were impossible, so I checked, and a replacement non-stick griller, minus bun warmer was just $30. We weren't using the bun warmer anyways, so no big loss. Oh boy! My mother got on my case because "it wasn't broken, it was still cooking". My pushback was that it was a safety issue as it was a hot surface, plus I could not get replacement parts to fix it.

This stuff makes me insane(r). My mom will spend 20 minutes with a rubber scraper to get 1/4 teaspoon of mayo out of what normal people would consider an empty jar. We had to get a new fridge to replace the one she's had since 1978. She wanted to get it repaired. I don't know a lot, but it seems like something that old... yeah.
Very similar argument.

Especially since we are talking about objects that don't go technologically obsolete like computers and mobile phones, and aren't expensive to replace.

[Scott5114]

I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

[kalvado]

I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

[Scott5114]

I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

Well, the George Foreman ZLoth was talking about had a cracked lid and a missing handle. Not having seen the crack myself, I don't know to what extent it was just a cosmetic thing (he mentioned a "safety issue" but that could mean anything between "fire hazard" and "it is slightly easier to burn yourself if you're careless"), but I generally have no qualms about using things that are damaged so long as they aren't entirely unusable for their purpose. My wicker laundry hamper has had one of its handles held together by gaffer tape for years now, for instance; the cloth liner covers the handles so it's not really visibly obvious. Even if it was, it lives in my bedroom so the only person who would ever see it is me.

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

[Takumi]

I used a George Foreman well past the time its non-stick coating had eroded on the bottom half, because I thought they were much more expensive than they actually are.

[J N Winkler]

We don't even own a George Foreman grill--the unique selling point (draining the grease as the meat cooks) isn't really something we need.

[kalvado]

I don't know that I'd have replaced that George Foreman, but that has more to do with the fact that it would have to get in line behind a whole bunch of other things I need to spend money on more pressingly. If it was still usable and not, like, an active fire hazard I'd probably just keep using it.

One thing is upgrade of a working thing, repairing faulty old piece is another story.
Sometimes repairs can be done relatively easily; sometimes parts availability would be a problem (is it legal to recharge a fridge with 1978 refrigerant today?), sometimes benefits of upgrade, if that is possible, make repairs a non-starter. Sometimes legacy has to be carried over despite all costs.

My bet there is no real reason to have 40 year old refrigerator serviced beyond minor cord or plug fixes.

Well, the George Foreman ZLoth was talking about had a cracked lid and a missing handle. Not having seen the crack myself, I don't know to what extent it was just a cosmetic thing (he mentioned a "safety issue" but that could mean anything between "fire hazard" and "it is slightly easier to burn yourself if you're careless"), but I generally have no qualms about using things that are damaged so long as they aren't entirely unusable for their purpose. My wicker laundry hamper has had one of its handles held together by gaffer tape for years now, for instance; the cloth liner covers the handles so it's not really visibly obvious. Even if it was, it lives in my bedroom so the only person who would ever see it is me.

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

Tastes, apparently, differ - I remember those keyboards, and I am not a fan. I had a similar workout weight-grade Dell keyboard for a while, no regrets once I forgot hot soldering iron on  top (well, it STUNK!)
As for "built like a tank" - I am not sure that is actually an advantage. I would rather get a new one once in a while without a stockpile of crumbs and hair inside. If you are interested, I should have a half-male mouse somewhere (mouse with only one ball). Stockpile of crap on the ball and rollers is included...

[Scott5114]

The switch action on modern keyboards is reminiscent of sticking one's finger in a jar of peanut butter. If it doesn't feel and sound like I'm using a typewriter I'm not interested.

[kphoger]

no new keyboard on the market

I'm still hoping Santa will drop a PS/2 to USB-A adapter in my stocking.

[kalvado]

no new keyboard on the market

I'm still hoping Santa will drop a PS/2 to USB-A adapter in my stocking.

that has to be supported by the keyboard. I don't think older  ps2 keyboards would work that way.
setting up some small microcontroller as a middle man - like pi pico - should be pretty doable though 

[Rothman]

I got a Ducky keyboard with Cherry MX Blue switches.  I love the clicky mechanical keyboards...

[kkt]

I was using a PS2 keyboard plugged through an adapter to a USB port on my work computer and it worked fine.

At home I have a Goldtouch keyboard and I really like the feel of the keys.  Not peanut buttery at all.

[ZLoth]

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

The Model M keyboards are legendary, and I can understand why you love one. There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Trust me, your wrists would appreciate it if you spent more than $15 for a keyboard, especially if you spend the entire day and evening earning a paycheck from it. My go-to keyboard has been the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which was introduced in 2005 and discontinued on 2019, and I've been through several of those over years, including destroying several of them through spilling a drink into them. The last time I ordered one was at the beginning of 2019 for $40 each, but, as a discontinued product, it is now easily listed as $400. Time to find a different model, even if it means I will also go with a Elgato Stream Deck Mini to launch several of my go-to programs such as Notepad++ and KeePass. I also dislike that several of the ergo keyboard designs available try to go away from the traditional keyboard design, especially with the placement of the arrow keys and the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys.

What you may want to do is go over to Amazon and search for a keyboard switch tester. This gives you a sampler of the different keyboard switches so that you can test it out and see what you like, including clicky and non-clicky versions and the different amount of squishiness.

[SectorZ]

Man I'm totally happy with my $10 Logitech keyboards from Walmart, though I do like the one that came with my current (Dell) PC and may replace in-kind when needed.

[zachary_amaryllis]

The switch action on modern keyboards is reminiscent of sticking one's finger in a jar of peanut butter. If it doesn't feel and sound like I'm using a typewriter I'm not interested.

I like the old-school clickety-clackers myself. I can't find the real old IBM ones someone mentioned upthread. But have one of those Corsair RGB ones, that is just delightfully clicky-clacky and feels nice to me.

[kkt]

As for servicing of outdated appliances, it is possible that someone may value the design or construction of an old appliance to the extent that they would rather repair it, even if that is not the easiest or most economical option, because comparable products do not exist in the new-product market. I pretty much exclusively use 1980s IBM keyboards if I have any say in the matter. Recently I had one that was starting to have the spacebar double-trigger, so my first inclination was to open it up and try cleaning the contacts, but I ended up opting to just swap it out for another one of the same age and model that I had on hand and make it future me's problem.

I could, of course, easily buy a brand new keyboard on Amazon for $15, but practically no new keyboard on the market is built like a tank the way the Model M is. When mine starts to actually wear out I will probably move heaven and earth to find parts to keep the damn thing in service.

The Model M keyboards are legendary, and I can understand why you love one. There is now a New Model M by UniComp that costs a little over $100 and isn't through Amazon. Unfortunately, due to supply chain issues with the microcontroller, they aren't promising any order fulfillments until late January, 2023 minimum.

Trust me, your wrists would appreciate it if you spent more than $15 for a keyboard, especially if you spend the entire day and evening earning a paycheck from it. My go-to keyboard has been the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which was introduced in 2005 and discontinued on 2019, and I've been through several of those over years, including destroying several of them through spilling a drink into them. The last time I ordered one was at the beginning of 2019 for $40 each, but, as a discontinued product, it is now easily listed as $400. Time to find a different model, even if it means I will also go with a Elgato Stream Deck Mini to launch several of my go-to programs such as Notepad++ and KeePass. I also dislike that several of the ergo keyboard designs available try to go away from the traditional keyboard design, especially with the placement of the arrow keys and the Insert/Delete/Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys.

What you may want to do is go over to Amazon and search for a keyboard switch tester. This gives you a sampler of the different keyboard switches so that you can test it out and see what you like, including clicky and non-clicky versions and the different amount of squishiness.

I have a Goldtouch V2 and I'm very happy with it.  It doesn't have the clickity of the model M but there's great tactile feedback.  I see they're still available with no wait either direct from Goldtouch or via Amazon.