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[TMETSJETSYT]

Just a quick question for Florida people. I was just wondering, when the complete the full beltway around Orlando, (Florida Toll Routes 417 - 429) will they continue to call the east side 417 and the west side 429, or will they combine them and make it 429 or 417, or will they just make it one or the other. Thanks

[The Ghostbuster]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

[BlueOutback7]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

[Life in Paradise]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

Did they make an exception for I-75 on the Everglades Parkway?

[CtrlAltDel]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

Did they make an exception for I-75 on the Everglades Parkway?

And I-275

[BlueOutback7]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

Did they make an exception for I-75 on the Everglades Parkway?

And I-275

Yes, but I believe those were grandfathered into the system. I should have clarified better. I meant that new toll roads aren’t allowed to become Interstates.

[Henry]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

Did they make an exception for I-75 on the Everglades Parkway?

And I-275

Yes, but I believe those were grandfathered into the system. I should have clarified better. I meant that new toll roads aren’t allowed to become Interstates.

You got it all wrong. As long as a toll road does not use any federal funding, it can be designated as an Interstate (like I-490 near the O'Hare Airport west of Chicago), but since a certain toll road in Richmond, VA was built with federal funds, it could not be called I-895.

[Rothman]

FL 417 and FL 429 will likely retain their existing designations. Its not like the beltway will be renumbered as a 3di of Interstate 4 (though perhaps one could have existed if all the possibilities hadn't been built as toll roads).

I believe that Florida has a rule about toll roads not being allowed to be Interstates. So in this case, the beltway couldn’t be an Interstate. Same reason why Florida’s Turnpike isn’t an Interstate.

Did they make an exception for I-75 on the Everglades Parkway?

And I-275

Yes, but I believe those were grandfathered into the system. I should have clarified better. I meant that new toll roads aren’t allowed to become Interstates.

You got it all wrong. As long as a toll road does not use any federal funding, it can be designated as an Interstate (like I-490 near the O'Hare Airport west of Chicago), but since a certain toll road in Richmond, VA was built with federal funds, it could not be called I-895.

Not sure this is correct.

[Mapmikey]

FHWA has no rule against new toll roads becoming interstates if no federal funding was used in its design/construction.  I-355 and I-185 in SC are examples.

But the theory posited was that Florida has a rule against it. 

[Rothman]

We're in *citation needed* territory.

[froggie]

We're in *citation needed* territory.

23 U.S.C. Section 129.  Falls under (a)(1)(A).  Used to be the "Interstate System Construction Toll Pilot Program", a 3-project pilot program added under SAFETEA-LU in 2005, but subsequently made mainstream with MAP-21 (see Question 2).

[Rothman]

We're in *citation needed* territory.

23 U.S.C. Section 129.  Falls under (a)(1)(A).  Used to be the "Interstate System Construction Toll Pilot Program", a 3-project pilot program added under SAFETEA-LU in 2005, but subsequently made mainstream with MAP-21 (see Question 2).

But, how does that support any of the ideas of designation of Interstate highways whether or not federal funding is involved?

[Mapmikey]

We're in *citation needed* territory.

23 U.S.C. Section 129.  Falls under (a)(1)(A).  Used to be the "Interstate System Construction Toll Pilot Program", a 3-project pilot program added under SAFETEA-LU in 2005, but subsequently made mainstream with MAP-21 (see Question 2).

But, how does that support any of the ideas of designation of Interstate highways whether or not federal funding is involved?

Explicitly interpreted by the FWHA to mean this.


from Roads to the Future - http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Route_895_Connector.html

Incidentally, Kozel thought VDOT should challenge that interpretation...

[Rothman]

We're in *citation needed* territory.

23 U.S.C. Section 129.  Falls under (a)(1)(A).  Used to be the "Interstate System Construction Toll Pilot Program", a 3-project pilot program added under SAFETEA-LU in 2005, but subsequently made mainstream with MAP-21 (see Question 2).

But, how does that support any of the ideas of designation of Interstate highways whether or not federal funding is involved?

Explicitly interpreted by the FWHA to mean this.


from Roads to the Future - http://www.roadstothefuture.com/Route_895_Connector.html

Incidentally, Kozel thought VDOT should challenge that interpretation...

That predates the legislation Froggie provided by a long shot.

C'mon, people.

[Mapmikey]

Fine...

Here is the language from 2001:

§129. Toll roads, bridges, tunnels, and ferries
(a) Basic Program.—

(1) Authorization for federal participation.—Notwithstanding section 301 of this title and subject to the provisions of this section, the Secretary shall permit Federal participation in—

(A) initial construction of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel (other than a highway, bridge, or tunnel on the Interstate System) or approach thereto;

(B) reconstructing, resurfacing, restoring, and rehabilitating a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel (including a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel subject to an agreement entered into under this section or section 119(e) as in effect on the day before the date of the enactment of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991) or approach thereto;

(C) reconstruction or replacement of a toll-free bridge or tunnel and conversion of the bridge or tunnel to a toll facility;

(D) reconstruction of a toll-free Federal-aid highway (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of the highway to a toll facility; and

(E) preliminary studies to determine the feasibility of a toll facility for which Federal participation is authorized under subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D);


on the same basis and in the same manner as in the construction of free highways under this chapter.

Here is the language from 2016:

§129. Toll roads, bridges, tunnels, and ferries
(a) Basic Program.—

(1) Authorization for federal participation.—Subject to the provisions of this section, Federal participation shall be permitted on the same basis and in the same manner as construction of toll-free highways is permitted under this chapter in the—

(A) initial construction of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel or approach to the highway, bridge, or tunnel;

(B) initial construction of 1 or more lanes or other improvements that increase capacity of a highway, bridge, or tunnel (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of that highway, bridge, or tunnel to a tolled facility, if the number of toll-free lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after the construction is not less than the number of toll-free lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before the construction;

(C) initial construction of 1 or more lanes or other improvements that increase the capacity of a highway, bridge, or tunnel on the Interstate System and conversion of that highway, bridge, or tunnel to a tolled facility, if the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after such construction is not less than the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before such construction;

(D) reconstruction, resurfacing, restoration, rehabilitation, or replacement of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel or approach to the highway, bridge, or tunnel;

(E) reconstruction or replacement of a toll-free bridge or tunnel and conversion of the bridge or tunnel to a toll facility;

(F) reconstruction of a toll-free Federal-aid highway (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of the highway to a toll facility;

(G) reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation of a highway on the Interstate System if the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation is not less than the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation;

(H) conversion of a high occupancy vehicle lane on a highway, bridge, or tunnel to a toll facility; and

(I) preliminary studies to determine the feasibility of a toll facility for which Federal participation is authorized under this paragraph.

This small change occurred in 2012.  It would appear that it is now possible to build a toll road from scratch with federal $ and it become an interstate.

[Rothman]

Fine...

Here is the language from 2001:

§129. Toll roads, bridges, tunnels, and ferries
(a) Basic Program.—

(1) Authorization for federal participation.—Notwithstanding section 301 of this title and subject to the provisions of this section, the Secretary shall permit Federal participation in—

(A) initial construction of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel (other than a highway, bridge, or tunnel on the Interstate System) or approach thereto;

(B) reconstructing, resurfacing, restoring, and rehabilitating a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel (including a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel subject to an agreement entered into under this section or section 119(e) as in effect on the day before the date of the enactment of the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991) or approach thereto;

(C) reconstruction or replacement of a toll-free bridge or tunnel and conversion of the bridge or tunnel to a toll facility;

(D) reconstruction of a toll-free Federal-aid highway (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of the highway to a toll facility; and

(E) preliminary studies to determine the feasibility of a toll facility for which Federal participation is authorized under subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D);


on the same basis and in the same manner as in the construction of free highways under this chapter.

Here is the language from 2016:

§129. Toll roads, bridges, tunnels, and ferries
(a) Basic Program.—

(1) Authorization for federal participation.—Subject to the provisions of this section, Federal participation shall be permitted on the same basis and in the same manner as construction of toll-free highways is permitted under this chapter in the—

(A) initial construction of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel or approach to the highway, bridge, or tunnel;

(B) initial construction of 1 or more lanes or other improvements that increase capacity of a highway, bridge, or tunnel (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of that highway, bridge, or tunnel to a tolled facility, if the number of toll-free lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after the construction is not less than the number of toll-free lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before the construction;

(C) initial construction of 1 or more lanes or other improvements that increase the capacity of a highway, bridge, or tunnel on the Interstate System and conversion of that highway, bridge, or tunnel to a tolled facility, if the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after such construction is not less than the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before such construction;

(D) reconstruction, resurfacing, restoration, rehabilitation, or replacement of a toll highway, bridge, or tunnel or approach to the highway, bridge, or tunnel;

(E) reconstruction or replacement of a toll-free bridge or tunnel and conversion of the bridge or tunnel to a toll facility;

(F) reconstruction of a toll-free Federal-aid highway (other than a highway on the Interstate System) and conversion of the highway to a toll facility;

(G) reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation of a highway on the Interstate System if the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, after reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation is not less than the number of toll-free non-HOV lanes, excluding auxiliary lanes, before reconstruction, restoration, or rehabilitation;

(H) conversion of a high occupancy vehicle lane on a highway, bridge, or tunnel to a toll facility; and

(I) preliminary studies to determine the feasibility of a toll facility for which Federal participation is authorized under this paragraph.

This small change occurred in 2012.  It would appear that it is now possible to build a toll road from scratch with federal $ and it become an interstate.

You sure that was the only change?  There were a couple of federal bills that passed there.  Froggie mentioned SAFETEA-LU and now you've skipped over that and taken us to MAP-21.

[froggie]

This small change occurred in 2012.  It would appear that it is now possible to build a toll road from scratch with federal $ and it become an interstate.

You sure that was the only change?  There were a couple of federal bills that passed there.  Froggie mentioned SAFETEA-LU and now you've skipped over that and taken us to MAP-21.

Reread my last post and the 2nd link in particular.  MAP-21 is what took the program from pilot to mainstream.

[Rothman]

This small change occurred in 2012.  It would appear that it is now possible to build a toll road from scratch with federal $ and it become an interstate.

You sure that was the only change?  There were a couple of federal bills that passed there.  Froggie mentioned SAFETEA-LU and now you've skipped over that and taken us to MAP-21.

Reread my last post and the 2nd link in particular.  MAP-21 is what took the program from pilot to mainstream.

Oh, I saw that FHWA Q&A, but MapMikey brought up the specific change in section 129.  Surely the pilot becoming mainstream is also in there somewhere?

We're also still not getting at if toll roads that have federal funding are then eligible for Interstate designation given the more recent bills.

[froggie]

From what I could tell from my digging earlier, last year's Infrastructure Bill did not change anything with that, nor did the FAST Act.  The first link I posted shows 23 USC 129 in its present form, and the relevant subsections are the same as before.

[Rothman]

From what I could tell from my digging earlier, last year's Infrastructure Bill did not change anything with that, nor did the FAST Act.  The first link I posted shows 23 USC 129 in its present form, and the relevant subsections are the same as before.

Ok.  I didn't see anything in there regarding designation of Interstates, just eligibility for federal participation (including funding).  Since it's so long, I could have missed it.

[Mapmikey]

Incidentally you can check the text for years back to at least 1995 with this URL and change the year -
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-1995-title23/html/USCODE-1995-title23.htm

It appears federal $ can be used in constructing NEW toll roads that can be assigned interstate status based on the change I pointed out.

The FAQ Froggie cited clearly says new construction.

(a)(1)(F) seems to say federal $ cannot be used to reconstruct an interstate to then make it a toll road.

Designating an interstate is actually covered in 23 USC 103(c)(4) which does not say toll roads are ineligible.  The 1995 version of 23 USC 103 has less language (and is actually 103(e)).  The 103(c)(4) language has been the same since 1998.

My extensive experience with Nuclear Regulatory Commission regulations is that if there is no explicit language prohibiting something, you can in theory do it.  But there could be FWHA policy that says they won't approve an existing toll road to become an interstate.  There are regulations that are in place to implement 23 USC 103.

23 CFR 470.111 governs designating interstates.  It references Appendix A and B of 23 CFR 470 (scroll down a short distance from 470.111) for criteria.  Toll roads are again not mentioned.

Drilling down further to see if FHWA policy might still preclude designating an existing toll road an interstate, I found this guidance which goes into construction-related activities including the mainstreaming of the pilot programs - https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/map21/guidance/guidetoll.cfm.  But I didn't find anything related to designating existing toll roads.  Which I conclude has always been legal, since I-240 OKC was approved; I-44's extension southwest of OKC years ago and I-335 Kansas years ago were to long-existing toll-roads.

[Rothman]

That's better.