News:

Thank you for your patience during the Forum downtime while we upgraded the software. Welcome back and see this thread for some new features and other changes to the forum.

Main Menu

Cashless Tolling coming soon to Oklahoma

Started by Great Lakes Roads, February 05, 2021, 02:15:52 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Ned Weasel

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 11, 2021, 10:10:44 PM
Part of the problem is that entire left panel doesn't need to exist. "Joplin" is a more than sufficient control city for OK 364. If you must sign Jenks and Broken Arrow, the way to do it is on a ground mounted sign that says "Jenks/Broken Arrow/Exit 218B".

It's really debatable whether Joplin should be a Creek Turnpike control city at all, since the only reason for using the Creek Turnpike as the through route would be if I-44 is so congested that the more direct and toll-free I-44 through Tulsa actually takes longer.  I wouldn't doubt it happens on occasion, but I've never seen it in the times I've driven that way.  They really ought to install an electronic travel time comparison sign in advance of the beginning of the Creek Turnpike, from both directions (one for Joplin, one for Oklahoma City).

As for the sign assembly itself, there are so many ways it could be re-done with just a bit of thought put into it.  (My own conceptual mock-up: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9539.msg2517835;topicseen#msg2517835 .)
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.


Scott5114

Back in 2009-2010 when I was using that stretch of highway regularly, the Skelly Drive portion of I-44 through Tulsa was...um...incredibly bad. Four lanes and early 1960s ramp design and geometry. So when the Creek Turnpike was built, using Joplin as a control absolutely made sense, and it was worth the toll money to not have to worry about dying several times per mile.

Now it remains because 1. it's a somewhat-standard practice for control cities of bypasses and 2. it makes OTA more money, and they're the ones who get to pick what's on the sign.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

rte66man

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 12, 2021, 01:20:35 PM
Back in 2009-2010 when I was using that stretch of highway regularly, the Skelly Drive portion of I-44 through Tulsa was...um...incredibly bad. Four lanes and early 1960s ramp design and geometry. So when the Creek Turnpike was built, using Joplin as a control absolutely made sense, and it was worth the toll money to not have to worry about dying several times per mile.

Now it remains because 1. it's a somewhat-standard practice for control cities of bypasses and 2. it makes OTA more money, and they're the ones who get to pick what's on the sign.

Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

Ned Weasel

Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Nice that they added an exit tab to repeat information that's already on the sign.  It's like "Norristown/Norristown" but worse.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

SoonerCowboy

Quote from: stridentweasel on February 12, 2021, 05:48:43 PM
Quote from: rte66man on February 12, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
Which explains why the 3 worst groups of BGS signage are all associated with OTA (this one, the ones at US169 east of this one, and the atrocious sign on US81 in Chickasha for eastbound 44 (HE Bailey).

This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Nice that they added an exit tab to repeat information that's already on the sign.  It's like "Norristown/Norristown" but worse.

Oh man, that is some horrible signage LOL. Why is "OKLA CITY" on there twice. Also mention the fact that it is the "H.E. Bailey turnpike", not just "turnpike".

Bobby5280

Quote from: stridentweaselThis? This?  https://goo.gl/maps/cYukU6SxSXQwSjya6

Yeah, that one is truly cringe-worthy. The H.E. Bailey Turnpike has a lot of "beauties" in terms of signs. ODOT isn't much better for its stretch of I-44 in Lawton and the last part between Randlett and the Red River.

If one of the "traffic engineers" working for either organization wanted to try to school me on what they do for traffic sign design I would be tempted to just laugh. I've been doing a pretty decent job designing commercial signs for more than 25 years. So I do know some things about typography, line spacing, the importance of white space, etc. And these @$$hat "traffic engineers" and whatever trained monkeys they have doing the actual pointing and clicking in the software are paying zero attention to that. Far too many of Oklahoma's traffic signs are really bad.

One of the few compliments I can give to ODOT and OTA for signage is they usually use state named Interstate shields on reassurance markers. Unfortunately they tend to opt for the neutered version of big green signs.

bugo

I have a Pikepass, but for some reason I got a bill from the OTA for their "Platepay" brand when I exited the Creek Turnpike at Peoria. I don't know why they charged me when I already had the Pikepass.

bugo

#32
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 11:05:03 AM
Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

When I worked at a convenience store a few years ago, we had a lot of problems with the gas pumps. One day we were having problems when a guy in a BMW tried to pump some gas and the pumps malfunctioned and would only let him pump 2¢ worth of gas. He came in with an entitled, bitchy attitude and said that it wouldn't let him pump more than 2¢ and we explained to him that we apologized and told him we were having problems with the pumps. He then got really angry and demanded we give him his 2¢ back. We told him that the manager had gone home for the day and he would have to come in during the daytime when the manager was there. He got madder and madder and kept throwing his temper tantrum about his 2¢, and finally I got tired of his petulant hissy fit and I reached into my own pocket, pulled out two pennies, and slammed them on the counter and said "Here you go." He actually picked up the 2 pennies and left the store. A guy who can afford a BMW taking money from somebody who was obviously not making a ton of money and crying over 2¢. If I could go back, I wouldn't have given him my own money. I didn't think he would actually take it. The funny thing is that it did pump 2¢ worth of gas, so he we didn't even owe him a refund in the first place. This sounds fantastical, but it really happened. There's a damn good reason that BMW drivers have a negative stigma.

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2021, 01:53:33 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Not according to 31 USC § 5103, they're not.

Again, though, if OTA puts up signs saying "PIKEPASS OR PAY-BY-PLATE ONLY" before the point that you commit to using the toll road, it is perfectly fine to not accept cash.

See, I'm still not convinced.

The wording of that code draws a distinction between dollars and precious metals.  This was drafted in order to ensure that the government, for example, couldn't pay dues to its citizens in dollars while demanding its citizens to pay their dues in gold or silver.  It's easy to see why that sort of thing was worth preventing.

That's different than drawing a distinction between physical and virtual dollars.  After all, there was no such thing as virtual dollars when it was drafted.  Knowing how the code applies in modern times, I think, would require judicial input.  Are there court cases whose decisions interpret the code in light of electronic currency?  That is to say, are there extant rulings that specifically state cash dollars are covered by the code referenced, while electronic dollars are not?
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

I think the place to ask that would be at the Where's George forums, where they had put together the view of the situation summarized in my Reply #19. (Obviously they have the incentive to spend cash wherever possible to further their hobby.) I don't remember if they cited any case law on the subject, but I do remember there being some newspaper articles cited at least.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

CtrlAltDel

#35
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Do you have a cite for that, with respect to legal tender?

I mean, you're the one making this claim, so you should be the one to back it up.
Interstates clinched: 4, 57, 275 (IN-KY-OH), 465 (IN), 640 (TN), 985
State Interstates clinched: I-26 (TN), I-75 (GA), I-75 (KY), I-75 (TN), I-81 (WV), I-95 (NH)

kphoger

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 14, 2021, 08:34:42 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2021, 10:48:25 AM
Electronic dollars are still dollars.

Do you have a cite for that, with respect to legal tender?

I mean, you're the one making this claim, so you should be the one to back it up.

I don't remember.  Probably newspaper articles.  You know, the kind cited by whomever Scott5114 was reading.

That's what I mean though:  without actual judicial weigh-in, I'm not sure there's a clear answer here.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Scott5114

The problem with electronic funds transfer of any sort as a payment method is that stewardship of them is kept by private institutions, most of which are for-profit entities. In the US in particular, the most-used funds-transfer mechanisms–the credit/debit card system–is run by another tier of for-profit companies, all of which demand a fee for facilitating the transaction. That is, even if you, the customer, and me, the vendor, keep our money in non-profit credit unions, if you want to use your card to buy something from me, the credit card processor, in my case Stripe, will take 2.9% + 30¢ of that transaction from me. Not a great amount of money (it's less than a dollar for a $20 transaction), but the less well-off you are the more that flat 30¢ will eat you alive. (This means I price the cost of my products at $1 more than I would otherwise, so really they're taking it from you.)

The other EFT option is ACH through the banking system. That's how your automatic bill pay stuff works. Which involves exchanging checking account numbers, which is obviously not desirable for a one-off transaction with a potentially untrusted vendor. And some banks charge a fee for originating those too.

You can't get a government bank account that will avoid someone making money off the transaction.

Cash is nice because if I want to pay you off I hand you a piece of paper and you hand me back the amount I overpaid, and there isn't some doofus in a suit demanding we hand him a dollar too even though he didn't materially add any actual value to the transaction.

Yeah, people start companies because they want to make a profit, I get it, whatever. Even if you're cool with that (I'm not) then it also runs into the problem of the right of free association popping up. Say this whole system wants nothing to do with you for whatever reason–maybe you run a business that's not socially palatable, or you publicly said something stupid nobody liked, or you work in marijuana (which is illegal federally and so is legally barred from the banking system). Now you can't pay for anything or get paid at all. Cash still works–I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

kphoger

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 14, 2021, 10:26:07 PM
Cash still works–I've got a business partner that works at a retail dispensary and they just pull a bunch of $20s out of the safe and hand them to her every week, and that's her "paycheck".

That's got to make tax preparation a lot more fun.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

kphoger

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

kphoger

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Rothman

It has been so long since I've used cash that I can't remember the last time I used it.

Cash is so 20th Century.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jmacswimmer

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 11:24:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 10:46:01 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2021, 10:36:33 AM
What drives me nuts is when a cashier doesn't understand why I might do that and tries to give me the extra $1 or whatever back, saying I paid too much. This is especially true if the amount in question involves coins–I recall at least once, when the price of something came out to $x.56 (don't remember the dollar amount, but it doesn't matter), so I gave the cashier an extra 6¢ so he could give me 50¢ back and he didn't want to take the 6¢. I, in turn, didn't want to be bothered with 44¢, but I didn't want to hold up the line trying to educate him like an old lady would.

Unless a cashier is really new, IME, they usually–even if they can't figure out why you handed them six cents–trust that you know something they don't and just ring up the total.  It's been a long time since I've had a cashier try and hand me back the small coins I used to make change easier.

I've never had any problems with using extra bills, but it gets more complicated when you involve coins.

This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"

I rarely carry cash anymore, but what I used to do in situations like these was hand the exact coins or extra singles over first prior to the 10 or 20 - that usually did the trick so I could get the simple change I was anticipating, and not have the coins or singles thrown right back at me.  :banghead:
"Now, what if da Bearss were to enter the Indianapolis 5-hunnert?"
"How would they compete?"
"Let's say they rode together in a big buss."
"Is Ditka driving?"
"Of course!"
"Then I like da Bear buss."
"DA BEARSSS BUSSSS"

webny99

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 11:24:05 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:07:23 AM
This reminds me of a situation I had about a month or so ago at a local pizza shop similar to the one 1995hoo describes. I added an extra quarter with whatever bills I used, as that would have allowed me to get a $5 in return instead of $4.75. Instead, the cashier slapped my quarter back on the counter and gave me four ones and three more quarters. I felt stupid at first, and then became a little irritated, but at that point, there wasn't much I could do except chuckle and shake my head on the way out the door.

"Now could you exchange this for a five-dollar bill, please, sir?"

It was actually a ma'am... but yes, that's what I would've felt like doing if the place wasn't so busy.


Quote from: Rothman on February 15, 2021, 11:29:17 AM
Cash is so 20th Century.

I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

hotdogPi

Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:42:39 AM
I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

Cash has two advantages for businesses:

1. No credit card fees.
2. In some cases, it's faster. At a sit-down restaurant, if you pay exactly (which doesn't have to be to the penny because of tips), you can go as soon as you put the money down, while with a credit or debit card (in the US), they have to take the card and give it back, which takes several minutes. Even if you don't pay exactly, if the server has the bills required for change in his or her wallet, it can be done immediately when he or she comes over.
(3: tax-free, since they have no idea how much the business made?)
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13,44,50
MA 14,22,40,107,109,117,119,123,126,141,159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; UK A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; FR95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 25 (updated from 14)

Bold=new

kphoger

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 11:49:12 AM
(3: tax-free, since they have no idea how much the business made?)

Yep.  Well, you're still supposed to report it, but...

Funny how people complain that illegal immigrants working for cash don't pay taxes into the system, yet native-born Americans doing the same job for cash don't present the same moral dilemma.  An illegal Mexican immigrant painting houses for cash wages is cheating the system, but the white American guy on the next ladder over working for the same cash wages?  Oh, well, nobody seems to care about that.

[/politics]  [/race]
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

webny99

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 11:49:12 AM
Quote from: webny99 on February 15, 2021, 11:42:39 AM
I agree, and yet, I continue to use it sometimes. Every once in a while, you will encounter a place that's still cash-only. It's not usually an issue for me, but I always wonder how much business they're losing because of it.

Cash has two advantages for businesses:
...

No disputing that there are advantages for the business, but I tend to look at it from the customer's point of view. If you make it easier for the customer to buy, the customer will buy more.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
And yeah, to pay the taxes, they have to show up at the IRS office with a suitcase full of $20s.

Why can't they use $100s?
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13,44,50
MA 14,22,40,107,109,117,119,123,126,141,159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; UK A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; FR95 D316

Lowest untraveled: 25 (updated from 14)

Bold=new

Scott5114

Quote from: 1 on February 15, 2021, 01:40:26 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
And yeah, to pay the taxes, they have to show up at the IRS office with a suitcase full of $20s.

Why can't they use $100s?

Their customers pay in $20s, and they're not allowed to go to the bank to change them out.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef



Opinions expressed here on belong solely to the poster and do not represent or reflect the opinions or beliefs of AARoads, its creators and/or associates.