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Cashless Tolling coming soon to Oklahoma

Started by Great Lakes Roads, February 05, 2021, 02:15:52 AM

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Bobby5280

The human toll collectors were already on their way out anyway, given the limited hours they have been manning the toll booths. Anyone driving on an Oklahoma turnpike without a PikePass after a certain hour at night better have exact change handy. Those bill changers at the toll booths really suck.


rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 27, 2021, 01:31:30 PM
The human toll collectors were already on their way out anyway, given the limited hours they have been manning the toll booths. Anyone driving on an Oklahoma turnpike without a PikePass after a certain hour at night better have exact change handy. Those bill changers at the toll booths really suck.

They were reportedly spending hundreds of thousands on maintaining the bill changers. The biggest reason for the changeover is safety. People are getting out of their vehicles to pick up dropped change, use the bill changers, etc. I was surprised at how many were hurt.
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

bwana39

#77
Quote from: Bobby5280 on February 05, 2021, 11:05:03 AM


That's not a blanket policy in reality. Retail stores can refuse bills above a certain amount. It's very common for convenience stores to refuse anything larger than a $20 bill.

Several years ago I witnessed a JERK inside a local convenience store angrily chewing out the cashier because she wouldn't take the guy's $100 bill. He was yelling out a lot of "this is legal tender" crap. I was getting sick of this since I just wanted to pay for my soft drink and get out of there. When he started insulting the lady I lost my cool and tore into the guy. I told him he was a coward for yelling at a store employee who was powerless to talk back to him (unless she wanted to get fired). She's not getting paid nearly enough to put up with that $#!+. I told him to stop being such a douchebag and get out a smaller bill, "no one is impressed that you have $100 bills in your wallet!"

The policy makes sense from the idea of change in the register to deter a robber. IE the register has less than $50.00 in it at all times so I may not can break your fifty. (Some actually keep less than $30.00)

It seems though that the main motivation to take nothing larger than a $20.00 is people are afraid of counterfeits. The complication to that is if I buy $50.00 with counterfeit currency, the risk is similar for 3 fake twenties as for 1 fake fifty.  Turning a customer away who is trying to pay for $75.00  in fuel that is trying to pay with a fifty, a twenty , and a ten is just absurd.

As to cashless tolls: Harris County Toll Road Authority(HCTRA) actually has toll roads where you must have a compatible tag.  There are no toll booths and invoice by mail is NOT an option.  You get an invoice by mail indeed . For the toll amount and a $35.00 violation fee.

The invoice by mail that TXDOT and NTTA use is scads better. (I do have a tag)

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 demoniations.

There's also the practical matter of keeping a cash register properly supplied with small bills for making change. When enough d-bags attempt to flex by paying for their crap using Franklins it can totally throw off the balance of the register. It's already difficult enough as it is with so many customers paying for little things like a pack of gum or soft drink using $20 bills. These stores don't have infinite supplies of tens, fives and ones (much less coin change).

I'm still waiting for the cash-less thing to migrate down the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. OTA really needs to do something about that Walters exit on I-44 ASAP. It's pretty dilapidated.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 06, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 denominations.

There's also the practical matter of keeping a cash register properly supplied with small bills for making change. When enough d-bags attempt to flex by paying for their crap using Franklins it can totally throw off the balance of the register. It's already difficult enough as it is with so many customers paying for little things like a pack of gum or soft drink using $20 bills. These stores don't have infinite supplies of tens, fives and ones (much less coin change).

I'm still waiting for the cash-less thing to migrate down the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. OTA really needs to do something about that Walters exit on I-44 ASAP. It's pretty dilapidated.

I agree you shouldn't have enough change in the till to break several C-notes (or even 1 in a lot of cases). I agree there should be some sort of drop safe on the premises if you can afford it (some might argue how can you NOT).  It seems to make sense to lessen the till and lessen the likelihood of a robbery and lessen the loss if there is one.

The problem is why the inflexibility to take a larger bill for a larger sale. There is absolutely no difference between 5 twenties and a $100. This inflexibility seems to be rooted in two arguments. Counterfeit currency and mistakes in counting (I.e. giving the $100 out as change, counting it as the wrong denomination.)

Several years ago, I saw a guy buy diesel at a small town store (they had started the pump for him that tells you how long ago it was). It also has a grille and I was eating in.  He tried to pay for about $75.00  in fuel with a fifty, a twenty , and a ten. The clerk called the manager, who called the owner. About half an hour later, the owner gets there and examines the $50 bill like someone inspecting the provenance of an artwork. She glimpses at the twenty and the ten.  She tells the guy off and has the clerk get him his change.

I know when I did the Secret Service Counterfeit training they did say that hundreds were the most forged bill followed by twenties. They said they had seen a few lots of $5's and $10's but the agent who briefed us said there had been $50's but he had personally never seen one from the streets. He said the Chinese has done lots of 1's but that were mostly trafficked outside the US.  This was 20+ years ago, but I would assume little has changed in the realm of counterfeiting. I think the current twenties would be harder to emulate. Likewise the current hundreds. Unlike the twenties, older $100's are still out there in large quantities. Working at a casino, it was common to see hundreds that were decades old. The font on the ones from the 1950's is really different.

I knew a man who liked to tote c-notes. Everyone in town knew it.  I have no idea why he wasn't mugged. Even in that small town, there were assaults and purse snatchings.  He rarely had less than 5 of them in his wallet and another hundred in twenties. If it was above $20 he would often whip out a century. It seemed crass to me. He was a really nice guy, not sure why he needed to flash them. Then again, he almost always had a Cadillac or a Lincoln.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Scott5114

#80
Quote from: Bobby5280 on September 06, 2021, 11:10:06 AM
Deterring robbery is the main motive for convenience stores to refuse $100 bills. The counterfeit thing is another, although lots of funny money is in $20 demoniations.

When I worked as a casino cashier, we got way more counterfeit $20s than other denominations. We actually got fewer fake $100s than any other denomination, especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt. $20s were safer to attempt, because they have fewer security features, and most people see enough $20s that they get complacent and don't look at them too closely. We also got a number of $50s, but we honestly saw just as many $10s and even a few $5s (I'd even heard of someone catching a fake $1 once, but I never got enough details on that to know if it was true or not).

Counterfeiting is super easy if you know where to take the bills. So many places train their cashiers to just mark bills with a counterfeit pen and that's the only anti-counterfeiting measure they take. You can easily get around that with cotton paper that's available on Amazon. My D&D play money marks good with a counterfeit pen because I printed it on cotton paper.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13,44,50
MA 22,40,107,109,117,119,126,141,159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled number: 14
Expected lowest untraveled number tomorrow: 25

Scott5114

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 03:36:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.

Not as far as I saw. And nobody bothered trying to counterfeit the pre-1990s bills that had close to zero in the way of security features, either. That'd be a sensible way of going about it, but I think you way overestimate the amount of effort counterfeiters put into their stuff. The vast majority of counterfeits we caught were simply printed out from a home inkjet printer. It got to the point that I could spot them from someone's hand while they were standing in line, they were so bad.

Most of the people who brought them in weren't the counterfeiters; they had gotten them in change from somewhere like 7-11 and brought them into the casino. Many of them only brought them to the cage because they couldn't get them to work in the slot machines. Hell, we literally had a few people bring in Chinese play money or "For Motion Picture Use Only" prop money trying to gamble with it and never bothered to look at it long enough to realize it wasn't the real thing. Just goes to show you how little attention most people pay to their surroundings.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

hotdogPi

Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
Chinese play money

Given "Where's George" and people writing on bills with pens, I wouldn't instantly identify that as fake, just defaced.
Clinched

Traveled, plus
US 13,44,50
MA 22,40,107,109,117,119,126,141,159
NH 27, 111A(E); CA 133; NY 366; GA 42, 140; FL A1A, 7; CT 32; VT 2A, 5A; PA 3, 51, 60, QC 162, 165, 263; 🇬🇧A100, A3211, A3213, A3215, A4222; 🇫🇷95 D316

Lowest untraveled number: 14
Expected lowest untraveled number tomorrow: 25

bwana39

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 04:23:55 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:52:41 PM
Chinese play money

Given "Where's George" and people writing on bills with pens, I wouldn't instantly identify that as fake, just defaced.

I was watching "Jack Ryan" on Netflix and the dealer at the Roulette wheel didn't want to take the defaced currency.

Quote from: 1 on September 06, 2021, 03:36:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 06, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
especially after the blue $100s came out; seems like the security features on the $100 are daunting enough counterfeiters didn't even want to make an attempt

They didn't continue to counterfeit the old style? There are still a decent number of uncolored $100s out there.

Our big casino deal was when we spotted a fake 1952. $100. The Secret Service guy from Dallas had us continue to take them. They wanted to get to the source of them. They all were IDENTICAL. Even had the same serial number. They were really good except for one imperfection.  That guy passed probably a dozen of them one each day he played for probably over three weeks.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Great Lakes Roads

Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

Scott5114

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 22, 2022, 10:51:10 PM
Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

It was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 11:25:48 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on January 22, 2022, 10:51:10 PM
Next toll road to switch to cashless tolling on the Oklahoma Turnpike: the Kickapoo Turnpike, which starts on January 25.

https://kfor.com/news/local/kickapoo-turnpike-shifting-to-cashless-tolling/

It was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.
Yeah I wonder how much money they spent on the extra pavement, signage, and machines. They need to demolish and remove them as well which will cost extra money. The OTA has said they won't remove the stop to pay areas until after they complete converting every tollway to cashless which I guess makes sense.

Still what a waste and a classic example of a dysfunctional government.

Scott5114

Hell, recently on the H.E. Bailey spur they were doing some sort of concrete work to the toll plaza at the SH-76 exit. I assumed they were taking the toll baskets out. Nope, looks like they just replaced a couple of slabs.

Oh well, at least it's paid out of toll money, and not taxes.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

ZLoth

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2022, 11:25:48 PMIt was kind of silly for them to install cash tolling on the Kickapoo to begin with. Those coin machines are only like two years old. Maybe they can rotate them out to the Turner and Will Rogers, as I believe those are intended to be the last ones to go all-electronic.

Two years ago makes it January, 2020. This effectively places it in a pre-Covid world. And the migration to cashless was sped up due to Covid.
I'm an Engineer. That means I solve problems. Not problems like "What is beauty?", because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy. I solve practical problems and call them "paychecks".

Scott5114

Well, yes, but I believe the plan to go to all-cashless predates the Kickapoo's opening. I remember driving past the toll plazas when it opened thinking it was weird that they installed them to begin with.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

It's very likely the toll plazas on the Kickapoo Turnpike were built because the construction plans were at least several years or more old and budgeting all set. I guess it was easier to just build the plazas rather than revise the plans to accommodate current events.

I'm wondering if OTA will even bother removing the cash toll booths. For all I know they may just shutter them and leave them sitting there un-used. Or even use the booths to store stuff. I suppose the toll booths buildings won't hurt anything since they're built out-board away from the free-flowing PikePass thru lanes. Traditionally those booths usually get removed however.

Scott5114

I don't think the Kickapoo even has any traditional human tollbooths, just coin baskets. Each toll plaza does come with a small building used for some sort of administrative purpose, but it's well removed from the mainlines and can continue being used for whatever OTA wants.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

Bobby5280

Yeah, via Google Street View, you can see the difference in toll booth design on the Kickapoo Turnpike versus something not quite as new, such as the toll plaza on I-44 between Elgin and Chickasha. That one closer to Lawton has manned booths whereas the cash lanes on the Kickapoo Turnpike are labeled as "self pay." There is still some considerable expense building those outboard cash lanes and their approaches. 

Great Lakes Roads

Looking at the plans for the cashless tolling conversion of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44), here's what I gathered:

-At the Walters exit (Exit 20), traffic exiting to OK 5 and merging onto I-44 will have its own "CD Lane". The entering traffic will yield to the exiting traffic.
-The toll gantries at exit 20 will be about .4 miles south and about .8 miles north.
-At the Chickasha Mainline Toll Plaza, the cash lanes will be closed, and all traffic will be using the open-road tolling lanes in the center.
-At the Newcastle Mainline Toll Plaza as well as the HEB Spur Mainline Toll Plaza, the existing toll booth will be demolished to make way for the new cashless toll gantry.

Great Lakes Roads

#95
https://www.kswo.com/2022/06/14/pike-pass-changes/

https://www.southwestledger.news/news/he-bailey-turnpike-converting-totally-cashless-tolls

Starting on or after June 21st, the H.E. Bailey Turnpike switches to cashless tolling between OKC and Lawton. Demolition of the toll plazas will commence after the switch. The stretch between Lawton to the Texas state line will switch to cashless tolling sometime in late July.

Bobby5280

I still can't tell what the OTA is going to do with the existing Walters Toll Plaza. Are they going to at least remove the toll booth structures out from underneath the OK-5 bridge overhead? I worry the end result of that re-tooled "cash-less" I-44 exit is still going to be a speed zone where every motorist has to slow down to something like 30mph to pass through that outdated, dilapidated interchange.

Really that whole OK-5/I-44 exit needs to be fully rebuilt. A new OK-5 bridge over I-44 is very badly needed; the existing one is in terrible shape. And those hour glass shaped exit ramps need to be rebuilt in a normal diamond configuration. The OTA has had plans to do that, but they keep "kicking the can" years down the road into the future. This freaking old-ass exit isn't even in the ACCESS Oklahoma 15 year plan. They'll build 4 new I-44 exits between Lawton and Newcastle, but they can't fix that really old, existing Walters exit? C'mon man.

Great Lakes Roads

#97
Quote from: Bobby5280 on June 14, 2022, 11:46:29 PM
I still can't tell what the OTA is going to do with the existing Walters Toll Plaza. Are they going to at least remove the toll booth structures out from underneath the OK-5 bridge overhead? I worry the end result of that re-tooled "cash-less" I-44 exit is still going to be a speed zone where every motorist has to slow down to something like 30mph to pass through that outdated, dilapidated interchange.

Really that whole OK-5/I-44 exit needs to be fully rebuilt. A new OK-5 bridge over I-44 is very badly needed; the existing one is in terrible shape. And those hour glass shaped exit ramps need to be rebuilt in a normal diamond configuration. The OTA has had plans to do that, but they keep "kicking the can" years down the road into the future. This freaking old-ass exit isn't even in the ACCESS Oklahoma 15 year plan. They'll build 4 new I-44 exits between Lawton and Newcastle, but they can't fix that really old, existing Walters exit? C'mon man.

From what I've seen in the plans, the Walters Toll Plaza will be completely removed, and the area underneath the bridge will be completely reconstructed. The OTA is (I think personally) doing a half-assed attempt on redoing the Walters exit as it is not too busy of an exit. They are also going to rehab the bridge structure over I-44 at that exit (and that's me actually reading through the plans a few times).

Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on June 14, 2022, 03:51:24 PM
Looking at the plans for the cashless tolling conversion of the H.E. Bailey Turnpike (I-44), here's what I gathered:

-At the Walters exit (Exit 20), traffic exiting to OK 5 and merging onto I-44 will have its own "CD Lane". The entering traffic will yield to the exiting traffic.
-The toll gantries at exit 20 will be about .4 miles south and about .8 miles north.


(Yes, I did look over the plans before typing that out)

Oh, and they are going to do the same thing to the Cimarron Turnpike at exit 15 (US 177) and exit 48 (OK 99).

Plutonic Panda

From KFOR:

QuoteJune 21: Chickasha, Newcastle and SH-4/H.E. Bailey spur near Blanchard toll plazas will become cashless.

The Newcastle and SH-4/H.E. Bailey spur toll plazas will be narrowed to one lane with reduced speeds through fall 2022 as crews remove existing toll plaza and equipment from the roadway.

This cashless tolling work zone is separate from the ongoing pavement rehabilitation taking place on the turnpike.

Early July: Ramps at US-277 in Elgin, US-62 in Chickasha, SH-4/H.E. Bailey Spur near Bridge Creek, and SH-76 on the H.E. Bailey Spur near Blanchard will become cashless.

Late July: The Walters toll plaza and its ramps at SH-5 between Lawton and the Texas state line will become cashless.

Organizers say PlatePay cameras will photograph a vehicle's license plate, which allows the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority to send a bill to the owner.

- https://kfor.com/news/local/h-e-bailey-turnpike-to-go-cashless/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=facebook.com&fbclid=IwAR2doqqBqHZNBrpp3Z16XfuO_bULshvzbF5Lwf2IXylVsS5Cb-7aMN185k0

skluth

More cashless tolling coming - including the Indian Nation Turnpike. Note last sentence.

Quote
Oklahoma Turnpike Authority approves another cashless tolling conversion

OKLAHOMA CITY (KFOR) — The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority met Tuesday and approved another project in the ongoing effort to convert Oklahoma turnpikes to cashless tolling.

The state has been converting turnpike toll collections to PlatePay, which uses cameras to photograph a vehicle's license plate. OTA then mails an invoice to the registered vehicle owner.

OTA's board approved a $17 million contract that includes an agreement for PlatePay conversion, bridge rehabilitation and interchange construction along I-44/H.E. Bailey Turnpike between Chickasha and Newcastle, according to an OTA news release.

"This project will update roadways, signs and striping for PlatePay, as well as reconstruct the interchange at US-277/SH-5 near Walters, on the southern end of the H.E. Bailey turnpike,"  the news release states.

DUIT Construction Co., of Edmond received the contract.

OTA also approved additional design work for a future PlatePay transition on SH-375/Indian Nation Turnpike in Southeastern Oklahoma. The contract was modified to include $93,760 to complete designs at SH-3 near Antlers and ramp improvements at US-270 near McAlester, according to OTA.

"The conversion to PlatePay on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike was accelerated after the crash at the Newcastle toll plaza on June 4,"  Secretary of Transportation and OTA Executive Director Tim Gatz said. "It certainly added an exclamation point to the need to convert fully to cashless tolling quickly."

OTA wants all Oklahoma turnpikes converted to PlatePay by the end of 2024.



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