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I-30/I-820 Widening in Fort Worth

Started by kernals12, March 10, 2022, 04:26:38 PM

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kernals12

TxDOT is holding public meetings on March 22 and 24 about planned improvements to I-30 and I-820 in Western Tarrant County. Improvements include added GP lanes and interchange upgrades.

Here's the description:
QuoteTxDOT is preparing a corridor study to determine proposed improvements to I-30 from I-820 to Chisholm Trail Parkway, I-820 from Clifford Street to Chapin Road, Spur 341 from I-30 to Downe Drive, and State Hwy. 183 from Ridgmar Meadow Road to Rosewood Street.

An analysis prepared by TxDOT recommends five general purpose lanes in each direction along I-30 to accommodate future traffic growth in the corridor. Along I-820, the study recommends three to four general purpose lanes in each direction.

The study recommends reconstructing the I-30/I-820, I-30/Spur 341 and I-30/SH 183 interchanges.



Cerlin

5 lanes in either direction? That seems completely overkill to me.
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

Bobby5280

Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.

kernals12

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.

Unless you plan on extending this all the way east to tie in with the similar proposed widening of I-30 east of Dallas, this would create a nightmarish bottleneck.

Before they go that far, and your scheme would inevitably cost billions of dollars and require hundreds of property takings, they should build the DFW outer loop

Bobby5280

A 5-2-2-5 configuration at that part of Fort Worth is an example of in a perfect world scenario. What I find ridiculous is any suggestion that upgrading I-820 from 3 lanes to 4 lanes per direction and I-30 from 3 lanes to 5 lanes per direction is somehow "overkill." That's a fairly modest expansion in capacity.

If TX DOT is going to plan to re-build the I-30/I-820 interchange on Fort Worth's West side they should at least block off some room so an additional lane or two can be added to the main lanes later.

Cerlin

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

hotdogPi

Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.

Quote from: Chris on October 04, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Where is all the congestion? 9 a.m. and only some local congestion around downtown. If you compare that with European cities, you'll see that almost the entire urban highway network will be jammed up at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning.


Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Bobby5280

#7
Quote from: CerlinI have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception.

I've been visiting the DFW area frequently for over 30 years. Road expansion projects there have had some positive effect. The LBJ Freeway in North Dallas is a lot better than it used to be. Same goes for the junction with TX-114, TX-121 & I-635 in Grapevine.

The positive benefits of highway projects in Dallas have been blunted by the fact the DFW metro has grown enormously since the late 1980's. There is well over 7 million people in the metroplex; it's the 4th biggest MSA in the US after NYC, LA and Chicago. More new residents are pouring in all the time. DFW is still a very car-centric metro. Add to that the fact the DFW metro is a major hub city in the highway network. That's even more vehicles moving through the area on a daily basis. Added highway capacity is definitely needed.

I do not agree with the idea that freeways should have no more than 4 general purpose lanes per direction. Since you mentioned Katy Freeway I'll give you a good reason there: the additional lanes farther in to the left may be the only open lanes allowing traffic to pass through during traffic crunches.

The design of surface streets along much of Katy Freeway absolutely sucks. There is nothing in terms of traffic filtering at all. Every business, residence, industrial facility or apartment building all have multiple driveways spilling out onto the main arterial streets. Much of Houston's streets are like that. Traffic signals are all over the damned place. That makes it difficult for vehicles to get on the freeway and just as difficult to get off. Traffic backs up from the signals backwards up the exit ramps and then backwards into the main lanes of the freeway. If Katy Freeway was still only 4 lanes wide per direction, like it was in the early 2000's, the traffic jams would be apocalyptic.

kernals12

Traffic, just like the behavior of teenagers, is always perceived as getting worse no matter the facts.

Cerlin

Quote from: 1 on March 11, 2022, 11:51:27 AM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.

Quote from: Chris on October 04, 2021, 10:00:47 AM
Where is all the congestion? 9 a.m. and only some local congestion around downtown. If you compare that with European cities, you'll see that almost the entire urban highway network will be jammed up at 9 a.m. on a Monday morning.


Kinda missing my point, not saying the Katy Freeway is gridlocked 24/7. But I've yet to see an article within the last 8 years showing how traffic times have improved. Most often I just find articles like this who utilize the transtar traffic data.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/2014/02/04/houston-commute-times-quickly-increasing/

So, I don't live in Houston and forgive me if I am wrong but I've yet to see anything that proves the 7 lanes are entirely necessary.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 11, 2022, 12:52:08 PM
The design of surface streets along much of Katy Freeway absolutely sucks. There is nothing in terms of traffic filtering at all. Every business, residence, industrial facility or apartment building all have multiple driveways spilling out onto the main arterial streets. Much of Houston's streets are like that. Traffic signals are all over the damned place. That makes it difficult for vehicles to get on the freeway and just as difficult to get off. Traffic backs up from the signals backwards up the exit ramps and then backwards into the main lanes of the freeway. If Katy Freeway was still only 4 lanes wide per direction, like it was in the early 2000's, the traffic jams would be apocalyptic.

I think that's a fair assessment for Houston, I forget how messed up their urban planning is with those abhorrent side streets. I just don't think I can justify the same thing for DFW projects because, while not great, our surface streets are better. And I acknowledge my biases here, you mentioned DFW being extremely car centric and my argument would be to invest money into alternative methods of transportation to reduce highway congestion instead of feeding into the cycle, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread. I think at the end of the day adding capacity for 30 is necessary and will have benefits, I just don't quite agree with the notion that 5 lanes is the solution. However, I really do appreciate you writing out your vantage points because you raise some good points and conjectures.
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

Bobby5280

Quote from: CerlinI think that's a fair assessment for Houston, I forget how messed up their urban planning is with those abhorrent side streets. I just don't think I can justify the same thing for DFW projects because, while not great, our surface streets are better.

The street grids in DFW aren't all that much better. The quality of street grid often comes down to its age. Upper income zones in DFW built within the last 20-30 years, such as Frisco, have more modern street grids. I-30 cuts across much older areas of the metroplex when the design of surface street access control was a free for all.

Quote from: CerlinAnd I acknowledge my biases here, you mentioned DFW being extremely car centric and my argument would be to invest money into alternative methods of transportation to reduce highway congestion instead of feeding into the cycle, but that goes beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm not against mass transit in general, but I am absolutely disgusted by how extreme the costs are in the US to build any kind of passenger rail system. Even the cost of a modest street car system with a limited rail network can be very high. I'm also against this zero sum game notion of pitting one mode of transportation against the other in terms of development, funding and politics. The fact remains Dallas-Fort Worth is a very spread-out, gigantic metro that would be hopelessly impossible to cover with rail service. Most residents in the metroplex will still need motor vehicles to get around most places for decades to come.

Quote from: CerlinI think at the end of the day adding capacity for 30 is necessary and will have benefits, I just don't quite agree with the notion that 5 lanes is the solution. However, I really do appreciate you writing out your vantage points because you raise some good points and conjectures.

If they're not going to incorporate any express lanes then 5 lanes per direction on I-30 is necessary. Farther to the east near downtown I-30 has 4 and 5 lanes per direction. It even expands to 6 just before the I-35W interchange; obviously those extra lanes are for the lane drops to fly-over ramps.

kernals12

Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.

Traffic on the Margaret McDermott Bridge fell sharply after the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge opened and has remained flat ever since
https://txdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=06fea0307dda42c1976194bf5a98b3a1

Bobby5280

Traffic flow through the "Horseshoe" around Downtown Dallas is better since that huge project was finished. I remember the early 1990's when the North Central Expressway project was under construction. It was a huge pain navigating that during construction, but it was an enormous pain driving it prior to that. It's not quite as bad now. But there are more vehicles on it now than in the past.

bwana39

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 12, 2022, 02:19:45 AM
Traffic flow through the "Horseshoe" around Downtown Dallas is better since that huge project was finished. I remember the early 1990's when the North Central Expressway project was under construction. It was a huge pain navigating that during construction, but it was an enormous pain driving it prior to that. It's not quite as bad now. But there are more vehicles on it now than in the past.


Yes, but they may start redoing the canyon on I-30 soon.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Bobby5280

I thought the next big project for I-30 was the widening project East of downtown to the US-80 split.

bwana39

Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
So you believe once a road is widened it should never be widened again due to the fact it'll have to be widened again in the future?

Cerlin

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
So you believe once a road is widened it should never be widened again due to the fact it'll have to be widened again in the future?
Nope. Not what I believe at all.
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Cerlin on March 17, 2022, 11:27:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
So you believe once a road is widened it should never be widened again due to the fact it'll have to be widened again in the future?
Nope. Not what I believe at all.
That's the way you made it sound like. Or that 8 lanes is the magic number? Or anything more than 8 lanes(4 lanes each way) should be in a separate carriageway?

Cerlin

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 17, 2022, 11:27:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
So you believe once a road is widened it should never be widened again due to the fact it'll have to be widened again in the future?
Nope. Not what I believe at all.
That's the way you made it sound like. Or that 8 lanes is the magic number? Or anything more than 8 lanes(4 lanes each way) should be in a separate carriageway?
Yeah it's moreso that once capacity is too much for a 4 lane on each side, you need to be investing in alternative transportation methods or building a separate expressway at a different location to bypass the area. I suppose there's a reason I'm not the head of transportation agencies or highway authorities LOL. Sorry, I realize I came off bluntly in my reply earlier!
Hypocritical Leftist who loves driving/highways and all modes of transportation.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Cerlin on March 18, 2022, 01:09:42 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 11:35:27 PM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 17, 2022, 11:27:26 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 17, 2022, 09:17:17 AM
Quote from: Cerlin on March 11, 2022, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 10, 2022, 07:18:46 PM
Do you drive much in the DFW area? 10 lanes on I-30 and 8-lanes on I-820 is definitely not overkill at all for a city the size of Fort Worth. Its city limits population is nearly 900,000. The existing I-30 and I-820 highways on the West side of Fort Worth are currently 3x3 in lane configuration. This proposed upgrade would be very modest compared to what they probably ought to do: make I-30 and I-820 with 10 general purpose lanes plus 4 express lanes, a 5-2-2-5 configuration.
I have driven a lot in DFW, I was born in DFW and lived most of my life in the metroplex before moving to Norman for school, but I'm still there a lot. I've yet to see a case where widening the road has helped traffic flow in the long term. For example, on 121 they just recently upgraded from 3 to 4 lanes in either direction. I have noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of congestion so far, which I am aware is just empirical evidence but it's just my perception. I'm a firm believer that any more than 4 lanes in either direction not only increases the ability for accidents with too many merge points (especially DFW with how horrible the drivers are) but doesn't do much to help congestion. I agree with kernals12 that the money would be better spent on an outer loop and I still think an upgrade to 30  is necessary, but I see no reason any road should ever have more than 4 lanes in either direction. The Katy Freeway still gridlocks and jams in Houston and it's not because they need more lanes.
So you believe once a road is widened it should never be widened again due to the fact it'll have to be widened again in the future?
Nope. Not what I believe at all.
That's the way you made it sound like. Or that 8 lanes is the magic number? Or anything more than 8 lanes(4 lanes each way) should be in a separate carriageway?
Yeah it's moreso that once capacity is too much for a 4 lane on each side, you need to be investing in alternative transportation methods or building a separate expressway at a different location to bypass the area. I suppose there's a reason I'm not the head of transportation agencies or highway authorities LOL. Sorry, I realize I came off bluntly in my reply earlier!
No you're good I actually tend to believe this as well that once one carriageway gets too many lanes it gets inefficient due to all the merging that slows people down. I think that causes more issues on freeways like the 405 than people know. Someone wanting to immediately get across five lanes of traffic to get to the HOV has to slow down cars when dozens if not hundreds of people at once are doing it.



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