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North Houston Highway Improvement Project (project resumed March 2023)

Started by MaxConcrete, April 22, 2015, 09:19:38 PM

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Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Echostatic on June 19, 2020, 11:51:36 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

They ran a similar article a few years ago about the I-35 Capital Express upcoming in Downtown Austin.
There is no denying previous accounts of freeways that were built with racist planning or simply taking advantage of locations that are occupied mainly by minorities. With that said what is the endgame with the mentality of "we can't build through here because there are too many minorities?"  So the 241 in South OC can't be extended because of a bunch of wealthy white people that live there don't want it near them and we can't widen this freeway because there are too many minorities in this area. So how do you build and expand freeways/infrastructure? I don't get it.


Plutonic Panda

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread
:no:

It won't change anything. Much like the upcoming I-35 project, this will be most likely be constructed as planned and provide significant relief to the current mess that is Downtown.
I sure hope so. I'm fairly certain many "POC"  will be using this freeway now and after it's expanded.

Funny enough it also has many improvements to localized areas along its path, adds bike lanes, improved service on the red line with a grade separation, adds new trails, removed part of an elevated freeway, and paves way for several park caps to better connect neighborhoods. Why is that never mentioned from the RE/T groups?

nolia_boi504

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 12:04:14 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread
:no:

It won't change anything. Much like the upcoming I-35 project, this will be most likely be constructed as planned and provide significant relief to the current mess that is Downtown.
I sure hope so. I'm fairly certain many "POC"  will be using this freeway now and after it's expanded.

Funny enough it also has many improvements to localized areas along its path, adds bike lanes, improved service on the red line with a grade separation, adds new trails, removed part of an elevated freeway, and paves way for several park caps to better connect neighborhoods. Why is that never mentioned from the RE/T groups?
Because that makes too much sense and doesn't sell clicks...stupid media!

Pixel 4


sprjus4

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 12:04:14 PM
Funny enough it also has many improvements to localized areas along its path, adds bike lanes, improved service on the red line with a grade separation, adds new trails, removed part of an elevated freeway, and paves way for several park caps to better connect neighborhoods. Why is that never mentioned from the RE/T groups?
And the proposed expansions aren't "racist". It follows along the existing path of I-10 and I-45 and only builds upon them. Will right of way acquisition be needed? Yes. It's not a purposely selected path for a new location freeway that bypasses a white community to tear through a black community. That's what RE/T groups try to make it out to be.

How about right of way acquisition that's taken when a freeway is expanded through a white suburban area? Is that "racist"?

As for the trails, freeway removal, and caps, they love to advocate for all these things (and don't get me wrong, when it can be appropriately constructed - I'm all for it), and when they're implemented, they could care less. But if we widen a freeway in the process to accommodate additional traffic from a re-routed road along with just a general need for more capacity, split lane configurations, etc. :-o

kphoger

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 12:10:04 PM
And the proposed expansions aren't "racist". It follows along the existing path of I-10 and I-45 and only builds upon them. Will right of way acquisition be needed? Yes. It's not a purposely selected path for a new location freeway that bypasses a white community to tear through a black community.

The property value of houses next to freeways tends to be lower than that of houses farther from freeways.  Black residents tend to be economically disadvantaged compared to white residents.  Therefore, I assume black residents are more likely to live in the houses slated for acquisition than white residents.  But that doesn't make the plan racist.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

sprjus4

Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2020, 12:28:57 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 12:10:04 PM
And the proposed expansions aren't "racist". It follows along the existing path of I-10 and I-45 and only builds upon them. Will right of way acquisition be needed? Yes. It's not a purposely selected path for a new location freeway that bypasses a white community to tear through a black community.

The property value of houses next to freeways tends to be lower than that of houses farther from freeways.  Black residents tend to be economically disadvantaged compared to white residents.  Therefore, I assume black residents are more likely to live in the houses slated for acquisition than white residents.  But that doesn't make the plan racist.
Should DOTs now construct new freeways through white neighborhoods instead of widening existing freeways? Redundancy could be the answer to solve racism.

kphoger

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 12:41:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2020, 12:28:57 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 12:10:04 PM
And the proposed expansions aren't "racist". It follows along the existing path of I-10 and I-45 and only builds upon them. Will right of way acquisition be needed? Yes. It's not a purposely selected path for a new location freeway that bypasses a white community to tear through a black community.

The property value of houses next to freeways tends to be lower than that of houses farther from freeways.  Black residents tend to be economically disadvantaged compared to white residents.  Therefore, I assume black residents are more likely to live in the houses slated for acquisition than white residents.  But that doesn't make the plan racist.

Should DOTs now construct new freeways through white neighborhoods instead of widening existing freeways? Redundancy could be the answer to solve racism.

Either that, or people could just accept the fact that every project has its downsides.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

MaxConcrete

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 11:59:11 AM
It won't change anything. Much like the upcoming I-35 project, this will be most likely be constructed as planned and provide significant relief to the current mess that is Downtown.

I don't think we can assume it will proceed as planned. For the last 1-2 years the opposition has waged an all-out war to kill this project, and they are getting more support. Recently the City of Houston acceded to the opposition and drastically changed its position, from supporting the current design to opposing it. Now CoH opposes all planned improvements north of downtown, and they actually want to reduce current mobility options by removing the HOV lane. CoH basically took all the complaints of the opposition and used it as their new position on the project. CoH still supports the downtown work (with remediation) since the downtown work eliminates three elevated freeways.  I blogged about the ridiculous and harmful request here
https://houstonstrategies.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-city-of-houstons-problematic.html

The Houston Chronicle is also waging war against the project. They have been running anti-project editorials regularly, and recently their regular (non-editorial) reporting has been biased against the project.

There is now a page on the official site for the dialog
http://www.ih45northandmore.com/CityOfHoustonFacilitationGroup.aspx

Combine the opposition from the City of Houston with expected large cuts to TxDOT funding in the next few years, and I think there is a reasonable chance the project will not survive. The main question is if TxDOT will be willing to do only the downtown work, and then bottleneck I-45 north of downtown as currently requested by CoH. In my opinion, it makes no sense to spend the 4+ billion to relocate I-45 in the downtown area just to shrink it north of downtown. On the other hand, the downtown work will be benefcial for I-69 and I-10.

My heart won't be broken if the entire project is canceled, since it is very expensive and provides very limited mobility benefits.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com

Plutonic Panda

I really hope this project goes through as planned. I've emailed several leaders vocalizing my support for this project. It would be incredible and a game changer for the area. It sucks that mega projects like this fade so much opposition and are often canceled or reduced in size. Far too often everyone complains about current conditions but when a real solution is presented people whine and moan about change.

I also disagree this project will provide "limited mobility benefits."  

sprjus4

Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 19, 2020, 01:56:05 PM
I don't think we can assume it will proceed as planned. For the last 1-2 years the opposition has waged an all-out war to kill this project, and they are getting more support. Recently the City of Houston acceded to the opposition and drastically changed its position, from supporting the current design to opposing it. Now CoH opposes all planned improvements north of downtown, and they actually want to reduce current mobility options by removing the HOV lane. CoH basically took all the complaints of the opposition and used it as their new position on the project. CoH still supports the downtown work (with remediation) since the downtown work eliminates three elevated freeways.  I blogged about the ridiculous and harmful request here
https://houstonstrategies.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-city-of-houstons-problematic.html
The City of Houston should either get a no-build, meaning the elevated freeways stay, and traffic gets far worse Downtown in the coming years, or a full-build. Either all components of the project get constructed, or none.

Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 19, 2020, 01:56:05 PM
provides very limited mobility benefits.
Disagree.

jbnv

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 12:01:22 PM
So how do you build and expand freeways/infrastructure?

You don't.

That's the endgame for many of these opponents. Just stop the thing from ever getting built. Throw anything at it that makes it more expensive and/or postpones it (which also makes it more expensive). Legislation, lawsuits, injunctions--whatever you can get from the government. 

See Interstate 49 through Lafayette, LA. We've been talking about it for four decades. No ground broken and little hope of any ground actually getting broken, thanks to a handful of obnoxious activists.
🆕 Louisiana Highways on Twitter | Yes, I like Clearview. Deal with it. | Redos: US | La. | Route Challenge

bwana39


The bottom line is the Pierce Elevated (IH45 on the west side of downtown Houston) needs replaced. No build is not a good option.  The suggested loop aroung downtown is going to displace a whole lot of stuff.

Actually burying I45 although expensive might actually be the better choice.


Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 03:15:20 PM
Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 19, 2020, 01:56:05 PM
I don't think we can assume it will proceed as planned. For the last 1-2 years the opposition has waged an all-out war to kill this project, and they are getting more support. Recently the City of Houston acceded to the opposition and drastically changed its position, from supporting the current design to opposing it. Now CoH opposes all planned improvements north of downtown, and they actually want to reduce current mobility options by removing the HOV lane. CoH basically took all the complaints of the opposition and used it as their new position on the project. CoH still supports the downtown work (with remediation) since the downtown work eliminates three elevated freeways.  I blogged about the ridiculous and harmful request here
https://houstonstrategies.blogspot.com/2020/05/the-city-of-houstons-problematic.html
The City of Houston should either get a no-build, meaning the elevated freeways stay, and traffic gets far worse Downtown in the coming years, or a full-build. Either all components of the project get constructed, or none.

Quote from: MaxConcrete on June 19, 2020, 01:56:05 PM


Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

-- US 175 --

Quote from: bwana39 on June 20, 2020, 12:23:05 PM

Actually burying I45 although expensive might actually be the better choice.


If Houston weren"t close to sea level and susceptible to flooding and hurricanes, that might be an option.  Buffalo Bayou flooding was so bad during/after Harvey, it took out a whole TV station.  So, if the project is a thing, progesses, and gets done, my money (if I had any) would be on elevating or at least keeping I-45 above water.

CoreySamson

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on June 21, 2020, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 20, 2020, 12:23:05 PM

Actually burying I45 although expensive might actually be the better choice.


If Houston weren"t close to sea level and susceptible to flooding and hurricanes, that might be an option.  Buffalo Bayou flooding was so bad during/after Harvey, it took out a whole TV station.  So, if the project is a thing, progesses, and gets done, my money (if I had any) would be on elevating or at least keeping I-45 above water.

Actually, it would be better if 45 were sunk below ground than building a new bridge, despite what Houston's flooding history might say.

If they sink it below ground, then water that would otherwise end up in people's homes would drain in there. Indeed, not being able to drive on 45 for a few days while it drained is better than more families devastated by a flooding event than necessary.

I can't really think of any other cons for sinking 45. The pavement on 288 and 59, which has been flooded time and time again, seems fine and not damaged, which would be my other big concern.
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texaskdog

Quote from: kphoger on June 19, 2020, 12:28:57 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 19, 2020, 12:10:04 PM
And the proposed expansions aren't "racist". It follows along the existing path of I-10 and I-45 and only builds upon them. Will right of way acquisition be needed? Yes. It's not a purposely selected path for a new location freeway that bypasses a white community to tear through a black community.

The property value of houses next to freeways tends to be lower than that of houses farther from freeways.  Black residents tend to be economically disadvantaged compared to white residents.  Therefore, I assume black residents are more likely to live in the houses slated for acquisition than white residents.  But that doesn't make the plan racist.

they do tear out the poorest of areas, which is not racist as much of an economics issue.  Around here "tolerant Austin" they claim to be for the minorities but are gentrifying them out of their communitites.

texaskdog

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on June 21, 2020, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 20, 2020, 12:23:05 PM

Actually burying I45 although expensive might actually be the better choice.


If Houston weren"t close to sea level and susceptible to flooding and hurricanes, that might be an option.  Buffalo Bayou flooding was so bad during/after Harvey, it took out a whole TV station.  So, if the project is a thing, progesses, and gets done, my money (if I had any) would be on elevating or at least keeping I-45 above water.

Houston is always underwater

Perfxion

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.
5/10/20/30/15/35/37/40/44/45/70/76/78/80/85/87/95/
(CA)405,(NJ)195/295(NY)295/495/278/678(CT)395(MD/VA)195/495/695/895

nolia_boi504

Quote from: CoreySamson on June 22, 2020, 12:46:29 PM
Quote from: -- US 175 -- on June 21, 2020, 12:43:34 PM
Quote from: bwana39 on June 20, 2020, 12:23:05 PM

Actually burying I45 although expensive might actually be the better choice.


If Houston weren"t close to sea level and susceptible to flooding and hurricanes, that might be an option.  Buffalo Bayou flooding was so bad during/after Harvey, it took out a whole TV station.  So, if the project is a thing, progesses, and gets done, my money (if I had any) would be on elevating or at least keeping I-45 above water.

Actually, it would be better if 45 were sunk below ground than building a new bridge, despite what Houston's flooding history might say.

If they sink it below ground, then water that would otherwise end up in people's homes would drain in there. Indeed, not being able to drive on 45 for a few days while it drained is better than more families devastated by a flooding event than necessary.

I can't really think of any other cons for sinking 45. The pavement on 288 and 59, which has been flooded time and time again, seems fine and not damaged, which would be my other big concern.
Totally agree. It took nearly a month after Harvey to drain and fix the beltway at Memorial. Traffic really sucked getting around it, but the volume of water that it held could have done much more damage elsewhere.

I have always assumed that park areas around Allen Pkwy and similar were designed to flood in major rain events. The media (both national and local) make a big fuss about how poorly they were designed. But, let's face it, we have a flood problem. The types of rain events we faced the last few years would have crippled any other city, especially if they don't have areas to hold large amounts of water (Barker/Addicks Reservoir, sunken freeways, etc).

I'm definitely not saying these systems are perfect. But the situation could be far worse.

Pixel 4


Ned Weasel

Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.

Thank you so much for saying this.  I 100% agree.

Frankly, I don't consider "StreetsBlog" to be the greatest journalism ever, and I'm not inherently opposed to all highway expansions.  But as planners and designers, anyone who proposes a highway expansion that displaces residents and/or businesses should have an ethical responsibility to include a fair, just, and equitable proposal for replacement of housing units and business spaces.

In other words, it's bad design to just say "Let someone else figure that out."

No disrespect intended toward FritzOwl, however.  I just do very strongly believe that any highway proposals that don't give thought to the broader social and physical context should stay in Fictional Highways.
"I was raised by a cup of coffee." - Strong Bad imitating Homsar

Disclaimer: Views I express are my own and don't reflect any employer or associated entity.

Plutonic Panda

Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.
You absolutely can call it the race card since if this were a white neighborhood this card wouldn't be used. Regardless of what has happened in the past, we need an expanded freeway. Many POC of will use it and benefit from it. They are pulling the card and they have done it before.

Perfxion

Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 23, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.
You absolutely can call it the race card since if this were a white neighborhood this card wouldn't be used. Regardless of what has happened in the past, we need an expanded freeway. Many POC of will use it and benefit from it. They are pulling the card and they have done it before.

When people oppose a freeway in a white neighborhood, it doesn't get built. When black neighborhoods oppose, its still plans as is. Can you name all the black neighborhoods that had freeways blocked because it would destroy the area? Again, it isn't the race card when successful freeway blocking in a neighborhood only happens in white neighborhoods.
5/10/20/30/15/35/37/40/44/45/70/76/78/80/85/87/95/
(CA)405,(NJ)195/295(NY)295/495/278/678(CT)395(MD/VA)195/495/695/895

mrsman

Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 05:13:01 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 23, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.
You absolutely can call it the race card since if this were a white neighborhood this card wouldn’t be used. Regardless of what has happened in the past, we need an expanded freeway. Many POC of will use it and benefit from it. They are pulling the card and they have done it before.

When people oppose a freeway in a white neighborhood, it doesn't get built. When black neighborhoods oppose, its still plans as is. Can you name all the black neighborhoods that had freeways blocked because it would destroy the area? Again, it isn't the race card when successful freeway blocking in a neighborhood only happens in white neighborhoods.

I can't in Houston, but there are several black neighborhoods in other cities that have been successful in blocking freeways.  Washington Dc blocked many of their roads through black neighborhoods.  The revolts propelled the career of Marion Barry, the mayor for life.  Yes, I-395 did blow through some neighborhoods on the southside of town, but the I-95 North Cenrtral Freeway and the I-70S freeways were stopped at the Beltway and were prevented from going through.

And to this day, parts of US 71 in Kansas City still have grade crossings.   They cleared homes for the expressway but still blocked the freeway completion project.  At this point, no new home need destroyed for this, yet it is still being blocked on racism grounds.

Another one is Baltimore.  Yes, some black neighborhoods there got destroyed for I-170 and I-95 construction, but I-70 was stopped dead in its tracks at the Baltimore city line near I-695.  So the unfinished I-170 did destroy homes for about a one mile corridor, the larger freeway project that would have connected this to the rest of I-70 was cancelled.

I can acknowledge that there were certainly racial elements at play at deciding which areas would be destroyed for a highway project, and yes given two equal routings the one through a minority neighborhood would likely get picked.  But some white areas were destroyed and some black areas were saved.

Some one

Quote from: mrsman on June 23, 2020, 06:22:00 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 05:13:01 PM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 23, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.
You absolutely can call it the race card since if this were a white neighborhood this card wouldn't be used. Regardless of what has happened in the past, we need an expanded freeway. Many POC of will use it and benefit from it. They are pulling the card and they have done it before.

When people oppose a freeway in a white neighborhood, it doesn't get built. When black neighborhoods oppose, its still plans as is. Can you name all the black neighborhoods that had freeways blocked because it would destroy the area? Again, it isn't the race card when successful freeway blocking in a neighborhood only happens in white neighborhoods.

I can't in Houston, but there are several black neighborhoods in other cities that have been successful in blocking freeways.  Washington Dc blocked many of their roads through black neighborhoods.  The revolts propelled the career of Marion Barry, the mayor for life.  Yes, I-395 did blow through some neighborhoods on the southside of town, but the I-95 North Cenrtral Freeway and the I-70S freeways were stopped at the Beltway and were prevented from going through.

And to this day, parts of US 71 in Kansas City still have grade crossings.   They cleared homes for the expressway but still blocked the freeway completion project.  At this point, no new home need destroyed for this, yet it is still being blocked on racism grounds.

Another one is Baltimore.  Yes, some black neighborhoods there got destroyed for I-170 and I-95 construction, but I-70 was stopped dead in its tracks at the Baltimore city line near I-695.  So the unfinished I-170 did destroy homes for about a one mile corridor, the larger freeway project that would have connected this to the rest of I-70 was cancelled.

I can acknowledge that there were certainly racial elements at play at deciding which areas would be destroyed for a highway project, and yes given two equal routings the one through a minority neighborhood would likely get picked.  But some white areas were destroyed and some black areas were saved.
Don't forget I-83, which although it was built past 695, the last few miles was stopped dead in its track (it was supposed to terminate at I-95).

Although it's not a black community, I can think of one example in Houston. 225 was supposed to be extended to US 59 in Downtown, but was eventually canceled thanks to East End's protests. Heck, there were even ghost stubs too (which eventually got removed as part of 59's (and I-10 junction) rebuild in 2003).

bwana39

Quote from: stridentweasel on June 23, 2020, 03:42:38 PM
Quote from: Perfxion on June 23, 2020, 09:26:13 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on June 19, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Trying to keep this non political as a possible is hard but now Streetsblog seems to be using the tragedy that happened to George and the unrest that followed to play the race card and claim this freeway expansion is now racist. Good stuff.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2020/06/08/houstons-i-45-project-is-a-reminder-of-urban-renewal-racism/#disqus_thread

Can't call it the race card when many places done this many times over the years. One large ongoing complaint has always been massive displacement without replacement. As much of a relief this may be, you can't go Fitzowl on a neighorhood and just shrug your shoulder. Urbran renewal projects tend to do that to POC way too often.

Thank you so much for saying this.  I 100% agree.

Frankly, I don't consider "StreetsBlog" to be the greatest journalism ever, and I'm not inherently opposed to all highway expansions.  But as planners and designers, anyone who proposes a highway expansion that displaces residents and/or businesses should have an ethical responsibility to include a fair, just, and equitable proposal for replacement of housing units and business spaces.

In other words, it's bad design to just say "Let someone else figure that out."

No disrespect intended toward FritzOwl, however.  I just do very strongly believe that any highway proposals that don't give thought to the broader social and physical context should stay in Fictional Highways.

I agree with you but......

It is going to displace communities. It SHOULD place the displaced residents in better housing, better neighborhoods, adn better prospects fo rthe future.

What happens is the landlords take their money and run and the renters are left to their own devices to find a new slum (IE housing at the same depressed price point.) The robber barrons prevail again.
Let's build what we need as economically as possible.

kphoger

Quote from: bwana39 on June 23, 2020, 09:39:37 PM
It is going to displace communities. It SHOULD place the displaced residents in better housing, better neighborhoods, adn better prospects fo rthe future.

I'd rather see "equivalent" in place of "better".  I don't consider it to the job of the DOT to provide upward mobility at taxpayer expense.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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