AARoads Forum

I know I made this pretty late cause of how much was done within the past decade, but better than never.

Mostly focusing around Sherman

4 lanes divided expressway (kinda freeway in all parts actually ) may sound fine for now.........until you realize that DFW is one of the big metros from the Texas Triangle that is growing like crazy

Oklahoma has been doing their part around Durant OK since the overpasses were just finished. So how is the 6 lane expansion going in Texas currently?

US-75 is currently under construction in Sherman from the US-82 interchange down to the exit for FM-1417. I don't know what the final configuration will be, but I expect a minimum of 3x3 lanes with some spots in Sherman featuring 4x4 lanes. There is construction on US-82 thru the volleyball interchange with US-75. TX DOT eventually will have to turn that interchange into a directional stack. But it's going to be fun creating room for the direct connect fly-over ramps.

If the Grayson County Tollway is built out from the North End of the Dallas North Tollway up to US-75 in Denison that will load the US-75 corridor will more traffic going into Oklahoma.

The 3x3 configuration of US-75 going North of McKinney ends at the exit with Rosamond Pkwy and county road 370. But I would expect that 3x3 configuration to be extended up to Sherman in the years ahead.

US 75 was completely rebuilt in phases from 2002-2006 from the Grayson-Collin county line up to the TI plant. The new roadway was designed to add third lanes on each side and will be easy to widen.

But first they need to connect Rosamond Parkway with the county line, which is an odd gap that is still old early 1960s freeway. There's also the same sort of odd gap from the TI plant to where the new construction begins south of FM 1417.

My previous post should illustrate, if you look, TxDOT's changing approaches to roadway design in the Aughts.

The larger segment south of FM 902 to the county line and the short segment crossing Shepherd Road were designed and built in the early part of the decade and are very flat with great sight lines.

The connecting segment between FM 902/SH 5 and Shepherd Road was built a few years later and resembles a Six Flags roller coaster in its ups and downs. TxDOT decided to cheap out and build to the existing terrain.

When they re-built the segment of US-75 between the FM-375 interchange and Shepherd Road near the TI factory TX DOT made some odd choices. The resulting 4-lane highway segment ended up looking like an Oklahoma turnpike with the opposing roadways joined together and separated by a Jersey barrier. And why did they build it with just 4 lanes? This is a major highway in the DFW region. They could have build it in a 3x3 configuration or at least put down the pavement and stripe it temporarily as 2x2 until other segments can be upgraded.

As for declining standards (or "cheaping out"), I would imagine the absurdly high inflation rate of road building costs is a factor.

Quote from: Road Hog on November 11, 2023, 09:48:21 PM
My previous post should illustrate, if you look, TxDOT's changing approaches to roadway design in the Aughts.

The larger segment south of FM 902 to the county line and the short segment crossing Shepherd Road were designed and built in the early part of the decade and are very flat with great sight lines.

The connecting segment between FM 902/SH 5 and Shepherd Road was built a few years later and resembles a Six Flags roller coaster in its ups and downs. TxDOT decided to cheap out and build to the existing terrain.

The "new" I-10 mainlines south of Vinton TX (between Exit 2 and Exit 11, Mesa Dr) will have that same problem and phenomenom.   Excessive vertical curvature.   Spending all that money, on new arroyo crossings, all new concrete pavements, and new continuous center median divider.  And to do it incorrectly.   The already reconstructed frontage roads, on each side of 10 along that stretch, also could have been "smoothed" out.  Am of belief there was a conscious decision, at some point, to reduce design standards possibly aping what New Mexico has done.   

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 12, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
When they re-built the segment of US-75 between the FM-375 interchange and Shepherd Road near the TI factory TX DOT made some odd choices. The resulting 4-lane highway segment ended up looking like an Oklahoma turnpike with the opposing roadways joined together and separated by a Jersey barrier. And why did they build it with just 4 lanes? This is a major highway in the DFW region. They could have build it in a 3x3 configuration or at least put down the pavement and stripe it temporarily as 2x2 until other segments can be upgraded.

As for declining standards (or "cheaping out"), I would imagine the absurdly high inflation rate of road building costs is a factor.

We tend to think of TxDOT as a single entity. Functionally it is 25 regional agencies with oversight from the central agency. Grayson County is in the Paris District. The budgetary priorities in the Paris District may not be the same as those in the Dallas District.

As to those overbuilt stretches of pavement, They tend to need maintenance before they are ever used. It does not make economic sense unless the use of the extra lanes in budgeted adn planned within a less than 5-year span. (Bridges MAY be an exception).

Quote from: bwana39 on November 13, 2023, 01:46:19 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 12, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
When they re-built the segment of US-75 between the FM-375 interchange and Shepherd Road near the TI factory TX DOT made some odd choices. The resulting 4-lane highway segment ended up looking like an Oklahoma turnpike with the opposing roadways joined together and separated by a Jersey barrier. And why did they build it with just 4 lanes? This is a major highway in the DFW region. They could have build it in a 3x3 configuration or at least put down the pavement and stripe it temporarily as 2x2 until other segments can be upgraded.

As for declining standards (or "cheaping out"), I would imagine the absurdly high inflation rate of road building costs is a factor.

We tend to think of TxDOT as a single entity. Functionally it is 25 regional agencies with oversight from the central agency. Grayson County is in the Paris District. The budgetary priorities in the Paris District may not be the same as those in the Dallas District.

As to those overbuilt stretches of pavement, They tend to need maintenance before they are ever used. It does not make economic sense unless the use of the extra lanes in budgeted adn planned within a less than 5-year span.

I agree. The Paris district is probably considered a rural district and therefore receives less funding from the central agency due to a lower population. The Dallas district is a major metro area and therefore receives more funding, which would allow them to spend more on building a higher quality US-75 than the Paris district.

Another example of districts making more/less quality roads is I-45 on the Navarro/Freestone County Line. Dallas District maintains Navarro County but in Freestone County, it switches to Bryan District. See in the link how Dallas' I-45 is concrete and has 3 lanes in each direction, while Bryan's I-45 is asphalt and only has 2 lanes in each direction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8735817,-96.3393097,3a,49y,322.92h,86.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAy64zdskaxoRvO5cOhKYGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Quote from: BJ59 on November 13, 2023, 04:43:43 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on November 13, 2023, 01:46:19 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on November 12, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
When they re-built the segment of US-75 between the FM-375 interchange and Shepherd Road near the TI factory TX DOT made some odd choices. The resulting 4-lane highway segment ended up looking like an Oklahoma turnpike with the opposing roadways joined together and separated by a Jersey barrier. And why did they build it with just 4 lanes? This is a major highway in the DFW region. They could have build it in a 3x3 configuration or at least put down the pavement and stripe it temporarily as 2x2 until other segments can be upgraded.

As for declining standards (or "cheaping out"), I would imagine the absurdly high inflation rate of road building costs is a factor.

We tend to think of TxDOT as a single entity. Functionally it is 25 regional agencies with oversight from the central agency. Grayson County is in the Paris District. The budgetary priorities in the Paris District may not be the same as those in the Dallas District.

As to those overbuilt stretches of pavement, They tend to need maintenance before they are ever used. It does not make economic sense unless the use of the extra lanes in budgeted adn planned within a less than 5-year span.

I agree. The Paris district is probably considered a rural district and therefore receives less funding from the central agency due to a lower population. The Dallas district is a major metro area and therefore receives more funding, which would allow them to spend more on building a higher quality US-75 than the Paris district.

Another example of districts making more/less quality roads is I-45 on the Navarro/Freestone County Line. Dallas District maintains Navarro County but in Freestone County, it switches to Bryan District. See in the link how Dallas' I-45 is concrete and has 3 lanes in each direction, while Bryan's I-45 is asphalt and only has 2 lanes in each direction.

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.8735817,-96.3393097,3a,49y,322.92h,86.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sAy64zdskaxoRvO5cOhKYGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

At very least the differences between Navarro and Freestone county at least suggest a difference in the upgrade schedules. The surfaces asphalt may be a cycle difference as opposed to an original construction difference.  Here is how the cycle works. Build the road from foundation up. This is mostly, if not entirely done with concrete. It is not uncommon to use the surface of that concrete for the driving surface for a decade or longer. The first repair cycle is repair broken or failing concrete as needed. In the same maintenance process they will mill it to be completely level and mostly smooth. They then will overlay it with asphalt. They will repeat this process several times during the lifespan of the roadway base. At some point (generally from 15 -40 years later) they will redo the entire roadway all the way to the ground again, mostly one lane at a time.  On the other hand, when the expansion to 3x3 will happen is primarily up to the folks at the Bryan TxDot office.

As much as the Dallas-Fort Worth metro has grown over the past 30 years, it's difficult for me to not consider towns like Sherman & Denison as part of the Metroplex now. At this point towns like that (as well as Gainesville, Decatur, Greenville, etc) are at least "exhurbs" of DFW. Sherman has a couple of its own broadcast TV stations. Still, the rural, green spaces between Sherman and McKinney are filling in with development.

It has been close to 20 years since they upgraded that 11.5 mile segment of US-75. Now they really need to add an outboard lane on each roadway. They could have justified a 3x3 arrangement 20 years ago with all the commercial trucks using that corridor. Budgetary constraints had to be why it was built in a 2x2 manner. Some portions look like they won't have to do much grading work to make it 3x3. There is a greater amount of down-slope outside the right shoulders elsewhere. The bridges carrying the US-75 main lanes over other intersections don't look wide enough for a 3x3 configuration including the inner and outer shoulders.

This is the final section in Collin County to be widened, it will be 3x3. It is 2.4 miles long to the Grayson County line.

The winning bid (http://www.dot.state.tx.us/insdtdot/orgchart/cmd/cserve/bidtab/01043001.htm) is $88 million, 17% below the estimate.

County:   COLLIN   Let Date:   01/04/24
Type:   WIDEN TO 6 LANE DIVIDED FREEWAY   Seq No:   3001
Time:   0 X   Project ID:   F 2024(691)
Highway:   US 75   Contract #:   01243001
Length:   0.000   CCSJ:   0047-14-053
Limits:   
From:   NORTH OF CR 370   Check:   $100,000
To:   CR 375 (GRAYSON COUNTY LINE)   Misc Cost:   
Estimate   $106,215,457.89   % Over/Under   Company
Bidder 1   $88,035,840.22   -17.12%   MARIO SINACOLA & SONS EXCAVATING, INC.
Bidder 2   $89,276,453.48   -15.95%   ZACHRY CONSTRUCTION CORPORATION
Bidder 3   $93,123,980.66   -12.33%   HARPER BROTHERS CONSTRUCTION LLC
Bidder 4   $99,424,812.84   -6.39%   SEMA CONSTRUCTION, INC.
Bidder 5   $100,008,865.25   -5.84%   FLATIRON CONSTRUCTORS, INC.
Bidder 6   $104,726,749.99   -1.40%   WEBBER, LLC

The Texas Department of Transportation released its updated construction plans on January 1, stating this new part of the project will be building main lanes, bridges, and retaining walls. Watch for daytime lane closures and heavier traffic in both directions of US 75 beginning at Travis Street.

https://www.kten.com/story/50295400/new-construction-and-traffic-patterns-on-us-75
https://www.txdot.gov/projects/projects-studies/paris/us75-project.html

Wouldn't it make sense to upgrade I-35 north of Denton before expanding US-75? It seems like there would be way more traffic using I-35

Quote from: BJ59Wouldn't it make sense to upgrade I-35 north of Denton before expanding US-75? It seems like there would be way more traffic using I-35

I-35 does have a higher AADT count at the Red River than US-75 (roughly 50,000 on I-35 versus 30,000 on US-75). But that's not telling the whole story. If you look at the TX DOT TPP District Traffic Web Viewer you'll see some pretty big spikes on both highways.

One thing about the US-75 corridor, more of the DFW metro is growing in that general direction (toward Sherman and Denison). That's one reason why the Dallas North Tollway and Grayson County Tollway routes are planned the way they are. US-75 going into Oklahoma carries a great deal of commercial truck traffic headed for the connection to I-44 in Big Cabin (to bypass the OKC and Tulsa metros).

The DFW metro has close to 8 million people. BOTH the I-35 and US-75 corridors need to be widened between the metroplex and Red River. One corridor shouldn't be widened at the expense of the other.

Quote from: BJ59 on January 10, 2024, 07:29:43 PM
Wouldn't it make sense to upgrade I-35 north of Denton before expanding US-75? It seems like there would be way more traffic using I-35

Construction work is already underway (https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/my35/north/projects/cooke-county/construction.pdf) in Cooke County north of Denton to widen to a 3x3 configuration, which will extend up through Gainesville with new bridges across the Red River.  I-35 is also being widened in southern Oklahoma to 3x3, inching up towards Marietta.

That said, and it's purely fantasy, there ought to be some people in Cooke County working to get a spur from the Dallas North Tollway as a reliever for I-35 and access to/from growing towns along US-377.  Living in Dallas County, if I want to travel towards OKC, there aren't good alternatives to using I-35E/I-35, despite most of the growth of DFW now occurring in the area between Denton and McKinney along US-380.

The ball is now in Oklahoma's court... widening I-35 and upgrading US-75 to interstate standards.

Quote from: sprjus4 on January 12, 2024, 12:37:05 PM
The ball is now in Oklahoma's court... widening I-35 and upgrading US-75 to interstate standards.

From what I saw on my drive through there yesterday, OkDOT just opened a new section of US 75 in Calera and Durant that looks awfully close to Interstate standards. They are working on it, albeit slowly.

I think just getting it to US 70 in Durant is all it'll take to get I-45 designated across the river. Once Sherman and that little stretch north of Anna are finished, it should be doable up to US 69 right up by the river at least. The rest are just tweaks.

Oklahoma, Durant, and the Choctaw Nation collectively should all be welcoming their new interstate overlords.

While I don't disagree, are there any actual official plans to extend Interstate 45 into Oklahoma, or is this more roadgeek assumption like I-2 extending west that isn't official?

The new Interstate-quality section of US-75 near Choctaw Casino is pretty decent. That casino-hotel resort has been expanding quite aggressively in recent years (maybe to try keeping up with WinStar over in Thackerville). Even with that new segment of highway completed there will still be at-grade intersections and other issues to fix just North of the Red River.

So far, the only completed 3x3 section of I-35 in Oklahoma to the South of the OKC metro is the section North of the Red River leading up to the WinStar complex. It drops to 2x2 after that and doesn't widen to 3x3 until reaching the exit Riverwind Casino just South of Norman.

Quote from: I-35That said, and it's purely fantasy, there ought to be some people in Cooke County working to get a spur from the Dallas North Tollway as a reliever for I-35 and access to/from growing towns along US-377.  Living in Dallas County, if I want to travel towards OKC, there aren't good alternatives to using I-35E/I-35, despite most of the growth of DFW now occurring in the area between Denton and McKinney along US-380.

I wouldn't expect ODOT and/or the OK state government to do much in that regard. Towns along US-377 in OK such as Madill would need to grow quite a bit to convince lawmakers to 4-lane US-377 North of the Red River. It's a 2-lane road South of the Red River. Highways in OK between I-35 and US-75 are very NOT direct. I couldn't tolerate driving on any of those paths from the Red River up to OKC. I think the better bet is pooling resources into I-35.

For US 69/75 to ever become an Interstate, the corridor would have to be converted to freeway standards well beyond Exit 26, likely as far as Interstate 40. Of course this is theoretical since no official movements have been made to extend Interstate 45.

Regardless if it is signed as an Interstate highway or not, I fully expect US-69/75 to be upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River up to US-70 in Durant. That's the bare minimum. Still, the sub-standard shoulders and ramps on the freeway section going thru Colbert will have to be upgraded. The at grade intersections between Colbert and Calera need to be remedied.

The US-69/75 freeway in Durant (and going up to Caddo) might need some work to comply with Interstate standards.

US-69/75 North of Caddo up to the South outskirts of Tushka would be an easy upgrade since there is already enough ROW available.

As we've said before, the segment from Tushka up thru Atoka and Stringtown is a serious roadblock. But those parts of Oklahoma aren't exactly gaining population.

There are some slow, on-going efforts to convert US-69/75 in McAlester to Interstate standards. The Army Ammunition Plant nearby in Savanna needs a better entrance.

Probably the easiest section of US-69 to upgrade is the segment between McAlester and I-40. North of McAlester nearly all of it is limited access. Some exits might need better ramps, but I think that's about all that is needed.

Really, if there was a serious effort to extend I-45 into Oklahoma it's possible there could be two separate signed segments. One would go from the Red River to Durant (and maybe farther North). The other would extend from I-40 in Checotah down to McAlester. ODOT could slowly chip away at the stuff between Tushka and McAlester.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 13, 2024, 10:12:10 PM
Regardless if it is signed as an Interstate highway or not, I fully expect US-69/75 to be upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River up to US-70 in Durant. That's the bare minimum. Still, the sub-standard shoulders and ramps on the freeway section going thru Colbert will have to be upgraded. The at grade intersections between Colbert and Calera need to be remedied.

Last time I counted, there were 10 at-grade intersections between the south end of Calera and the Red River. RoW acquisition is already on the 8-Year plan.

Quote
There are some slow, on-going efforts to convert US-69/75 in McAlester to Interstate standards. The Army Ammunition Plant nearby in Savanna needs a better entrance.

All are beginning in the next 5-8 years.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 13, 2024, 10:12:10 PM
Regardless if it is signed as an Interstate highway or not, I fully expect US-69/75 to be upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River up to US-70 in Durant.

I need to point out that like the argument over LA-3132 in Shreveport being signed as a IH, there is actually more differences between the requirements for an Interstate and a generic controlled access freeway than just properly paved shoulders.

I know there are more differences than just shoulder widths. Some of the ramp designs on the US-69/75 freeway just North of the Red River are badly outdated. The first exit at Franklin Drive is one example. ODOT did some modifications to the next exit with OK-91 (such as replacing a tight cloverleaf ramp with a straight ramp design). There is some other work going on in the Colbert area. Still, the non-freeway gap between Colbert and Calera will remain for the time being.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 13, 2024, 10:12:10 PM
Regardless if it is signed as an Interstate highway or not, I fully expect US-69/75 to be upgraded to Interstate standards from the Red River up to US-70 in Durant.

Quote from: bwana39 on January 16, 2024, 02:50:20 PM
I need to point out that ... there is actually more differences between the requirements for an Interstate and a generic controlled access freeway than just properly paved shoulders.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 17, 2024, 01:20:21 AM
I know there are more differences than just shoulder widths. Some of the ramp designs on the US-69/75 freeway just North of the Red River are badly outdated. The first exit at Franklin Drive is one example. ODOT did some modifications to the next exit with OK-91 (such as replacing a tight cloverleaf ramp with a straight ramp design). There is some other work going on in the Colbert area. Still, the non-freeway gap between Colbert and Calera will remain for the time being.

Are they raising the bridges in that area?  I think current Interstate standards call for a minimum bridge clearance of 16 feet.

Posted vertical clearances:
15' 10" — Exit 1 (NB)
15' 8" — Exit 4 (NB)

Well, this newly announced project will certainly necessitate a better connection to US-75, or at least twinning the US-70 bridge across Lake Texoma.

Hard Rock says it's planning to build a 189-room hotel and conference center on Lake Texoma (https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/hard-rock-planning-build-189-room-hotel-conference-center-lake-texoma/287-07405d1b-1984-40c2-abd3-31dd51f32f08)

This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.  I don't see how this could get built without tolling the bridge, though.  There are already ongoing feasibility studies (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) for twinning the US-70 Roosevelt bridge, including a couple of options converting the existing substandard bridge to a ped/bike crossing and adding two new freeway-quality spans parallel to the existing bridge.

Quote from: I-35 on January 17, 2024, 02:08:39 PM
Well, this newly announced project will certainly necessitate a better connection to US-75, or at least twinning the US-70 bridge across Lake Texoma.

Hard Rock says it's planning to build a 189-room hotel and conference center on Lake Texoma (https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/hard-rock-planning-build-189-room-hotel-conference-center-lake-texoma/287-07405d1b-1984-40c2-abd3-31dd51f32f08)

This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.  I don't see how this could get built without tolling the bridge, though.  There are already ongoing feasibility studies (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) for twinning the US-70 Roosevelt bridge, including a couple of options converting the existing substandard bridge to a ped/bike crossing and adding two new freeway-quality spans parallel to the existing bridge.

https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/ (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) Is the project website. If they can figure out the money Alternative 5 is the probable choice.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df)

For whatit is worth, Choctaw's new casino facility at Hochatown is bigger and 259 is 2-lanes north of Broken Bow!

Quote from: bwana39 on January 17, 2024, 02:41:27 PM

Quote from: I-35 on January 17, 2024, 02:08:39 PM
Well, this newly announced project will certainly necessitate a better connection to US-75, or at least twinning the US-70 bridge across Lake Texoma.

Hard Rock says it's planning to build a 189-room hotel and conference center on Lake Texoma (https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/hard-rock-planning-build-189-room-hotel-conference-center-lake-texoma/287-07405d1b-1984-40c2-abd3-31dd51f32f08)

This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.  I don't see how this could get built without tolling the bridge, though.  There are already ongoing feasibility studies (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) for twinning the US-70 Roosevelt bridge, including a couple of options converting the existing substandard bridge to a ped/bike crossing and adding two new freeway-quality spans parallel to the existing bridge.

https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/ (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) Is the project website. If they can figure out the money Alternative 5 is the probable choice.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df)

I was wondering about that.  It would be nice if this area was upgraded to full freeway, and perhaps that is still an option with Alternative 5, to tie into the western Durant bypass.

Quote from: kphogerAre they raising the bridges in that area?  I think current Interstate standards call for a minimum bridge clearance of 16 feet.

That's a good question. The first bridge over US-69/75 North of the Red River is a railroad bridge -with a clearance of just 15' 9".

Quote from: I-35This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.

If TX DOT or some other group proposed a new bridge to span from the tip of the Preston Peninsula to the Oklahoma side (maybe to connect to OK-70A) I would expect quite a bit of resistance from both locals and others that go boating/fishing on the lake. Such a bridge would be roughly 2 miles long. While such a bridge might help improve connectivity and business the structure might be an eye sore as well. The lake in the area off Sunset Point has a very expansive view not interrupted by bridges or other man-made stuff.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 17, 2024, 03:39:25 PM

Quote from: I-35This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.

If TX DOT or some other group proposed a new bridge to span from the tip of the Preston Peninsula to the Oklahoma side (maybe to connect to OK-70A) I would expect quite a bit of resistance from both locals and others that go boating/fishing on the lake. Such a bridge would be roughly 2 miles long. While such a bridge might help improve connectivity and business the structure might be an eye sore as well. The lake in the area off Sunset Point has a very expansive view not interrupted by bridges or other man-made stuff.

Right now the biggest construction priority is the replacement of the US-70 roosevelt bridge over the Washita River (Lake Texoma). ODOT says
"So let's assume that it's a couple hundred million dollar project," said ODOT district engineer Anthony Echelle. "The magnitude of that is two whole years of the entire southeastern Oklahoma construction budget."

So Oklahoma certainly doesn't have the money for what they already need. https://www.kten.com/story/49259696/odot-hosts-meeting-for-potential-changes-to-roosevelt-bridge

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 17, 2024, 03:39:25 PM

Quote from: kphogerAre they raising the bridges in that area?  I think current Interstate standards call for a minimum bridge clearance of 16 feet.

That's a good question. The first bridge over US-69/75 North of the Red River is a railroad bridge -with a clearance of just 15' 9".

Quote from: I-35This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.

If TX DOT or some other group proposed a new bridge to span from the tip of the Preston Peninsula to the Oklahoma side (maybe to connect to OK-70A) I would expect quite a bit of resistance from both locals and others that go boating/fishing on the lake. Such a bridge would be roughly 2 miles long. While such a bridge might help improve connectivity and business the structure might be an eye sore as well. The lake in the area off Sunset Point has a very expansive view not interrupted by bridges or other man-made stuff.

When I posted this, I was thinking something along the lines of the Lake Lewisville Toll Bridge, also operated by NTTA.  Bridges don't have to be purely utilitarian, particularly when they are backed by tolls.  Recognizing this is fantasy land here, however.



And to get this out of my system:  :D

TxDOT will have to seriously upgrade TX 289 (a former FM road) between Pottsboro and the lake to accommodate a new bridge/causeway, but I'm not against the idea.

There's not a strong economic need for another bridge across Lake Texoma, and won't be for several decades.  Perhaps an argument for easier access to some small towns or campgrounds or minor attractions, but certainly not from DFW growth.

The Collin County Loop ROW is an approximate edge of growth for the fastest growing side of the metro.  It is 35 miles north of downtown Dallas.  From the CC Loop to the Oklahoma side of the lake opposite the Preston Bend peninsula is 45 miles.  Take a look at old sat photos from 30 years ago, in that time the edge was about 18 miles further south.  18 miles in 30 years.  Now while the raw number increase  each year for DFW keeps getting larger, the circular outer boundary also keeps increasing (growth is occurring in every direction), meaning that on average, for every 100,000 net increase in population, the additional distance that the edge is pushed out from the center slightly decreases.  Area math. 

So even accounting for ever increasing numbers of persons added each year, the outer boundary 30 years from now will probably not be pushed out more than perhaps 20 miles.  Masses of subdivisions are highly unlikely to pop up in southern Oklahoma for 40 to 60+ years.  Maybe 1 here or there to support local growth or a retirement community or perhaps some large lots for a few commuters to Denison/Sherman, or eventually (decades) those seeking relatively cheap land compared to the DFW edge, but not the amount likely to require a long and expensive new bridge.   

Not to mention the potential legal environment and political differences of building and buying on split rule Native American Tribal lands may (or may not) slow residential development compared to other areas.  I don't want to overstate potential uncertainties, just note that it has potential to be a factor.

Quote from: armadillo speedbump on January 18, 2024, 11:54:34 PM
There's not a strong economic need for another bridge across Lake Texoma, and won't be for several decades.  Perhaps an argument for easier access to some small towns or campgrounds or minor attractions, but certainly not from DFW growth.

The Collin County Loop ROW is an approximate edge of growth for the fastest growing side of the metro.  It is 35 miles north of downtown Dallas.  From the CC Loop to the Oklahoma side of the lake opposite the Preston Bend peninsula is 45 miles.  Take a look at old sat photos from 30 years ago, in that time the edge was about 18 miles further south.  18 miles in 30 years.  Now while the raw number increase  each year for DFW keeps getting larger, the circular outer boundary also keeps increasing (growth is occurring in every direction), meaning that on average, for every 100,000 net increase in population, the additional distance that the edge is pushed out from the center slightly decreases.  Area math. 

So even accounting for ever increasing numbers of persons added each year, the outer boundary 30 years from now will probably not be pushed out more than perhaps 20 miles.  Masses of subdivisions are highly unlikely to pop up in southern Oklahoma for 40 to 60+ years.  Maybe 1 here or there to support local growth or a retirement community or perhaps some large lots for a few commuters to Denison/Sherman, or eventually (decades) those seeking relatively cheap land compared to the DFW edge, but not the amount likely to require a long and expensive new bridge. 

I understand what you're saying but feel like you're missing some key context.  Sherman has hauled in two absolute economic coups in the semiconductor wafer fabs that are being built there, with construction costs alone running well over $30-40 billion betweeen the two projects.  These two projects combined with ancillary industries will propel Sherman from its current 45,000 population to something much closer to 100,000, and officials expect that figure within 5-10 years.  Denison is on a growth trajectory as well, and, lo and behold, a $6 billion Margaritaville resort (https://www.kxii.com/2024/01/19/preston-harbor-project-margaritaville-resort-coming-lake-texoma/) was just announced this week on Lake Texoma by the same developers behind Craig Ranch in McKinney.  Projects like this and the Hard Rock resort announced across the lake earlier this week prove out that growth is occurring at a faster rate here than what a Collin County Outer Loop demarcation would suggest.  These cities are becoming economic centers on their own, with proximity to DFW no doubt playing a part.  And that growth has been very uneven along the periphery and trending much further northward over southward - look no further than towns on the south side of DFW like Corsicana and Alvarado which are essentially no larger than they were fifty years ago despite being more proximate to the core cities of the Metroplex.

I'm aware of all those developments, but also aware of scale, distance, and development patterns.

The semi-c plants are on the south side of Sherman (there are reasons for that), 17 crow miles from any part of Oklahoma.  The residential subdivision growth resulting from it and the related econ development for the next few decades will be primarily nearby, both Sherman centric and heavily south towards to the new suburbs springing up in Van Alstyn, Anna, and even Melissa.  Parts of Anna may also be 17 miles away, but will be attractive to many because of proximity to DFW amenities, potentially better schools, and more/higher paid jobs for spouses.  Eventually (decades away) the southern/southwestern side will become the least affordable so that some may seek lower prices much further north, but not a significant factor for years to come.  For now Anna and such are affordable housing outlets for McKinney/Plano/Frisco jobs.  And there is and will continue to be for many years even cheaper land to the east, west, and north of Sherman.  Sherman-Denison will boom, but relatively it still won't be huge, there is tons of land, and the Denison side will have a slower rate, being furthest away (and other reasons).  Grayson County was 120k in 2010, 135k in 2020.  Going to 200k, 300k, or even 400k is not going to push much growth to the north side of Lake Texoma.  Too much available land in between to the east, west, and south.

Oklahoma is going to see the smallest and most delayed growth of the sub-area's boom, unless they develop some type of tax incentives to attract more jobs.  They're doing similar by taking advantage of gambling limitations in Texas, but that will only go so far in creating population growth.  Many seem to wildly overvalue the actual growth and road traffic such generate.  And congrats on building a resort on the Texas side of the lake, but that's relatively small potatoes.  Tons of open land between the Red River and Melissa, or Celina, or Denton, or Farmersville, or Decatur, or Greenville, or...Just in that area is as much open land as the entire currently developed areas of 7+ million pop DFW MSA.  It's not going to fill in quickly, maybe fingers up 75 and later the NDTollway, but not enough to push growth into OK for many decades.   

And Alvarado and Ennis actually prove my point.  25 and 30 miles out from the downtowns of FW and Dallas, that actually have been adding subdivisions and industrial jobs.  Alvarado's subs to the north and east are enough to almost double the population (if all were in the city limits).  Note the new subs in Waxahachie, Venus, or south of Midlothian.  But more importantly look at all the infill in the closer in southern suburbs like Crowley, Burleson, southern FW, Mansfield, DeSoto, Glenn Heights, Red Oak, and even new apartments  and subdivisions in the terrible schools of Wilmer.  Close in matters, and lots of open space in between there and the outer 'islands' for more infill that will take decades to build out. 

Same to the east, same to the west.  So while the east side of north may be the fastest growing, other than an isolated few subdivisions (or more likely multi-acre semi-rural subs), it will take 50+ years for it to reach the Red River in the area where a new Lake Texoma bridge would someday be needed.  At least in a manner that would push major growth across to the OK side.

Now the pom-pom waving econ development crowd may get numbers they can wave to proclaim massive growth.  "Littleville, OK has grown 100% in the last decade."  Well with a small base, of say 1,000 people, adding another 1,000 in a decade creates big percentage numbers.  But it is still just an average of 100 per year.  Great for their healthy local growth, but relatively a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.  Things like creating the economic justification for an expensive high bridge across a wide lake.

Perhaps enough recreation, 2nd homes, retirement villages, etc will create a critical mass to get the political will for a bridge in 20 years.  But I think we are more likely to first see an east-west bridge across the narrower arm on the Texas side to reach 377.

I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.

Quote from: armadillo speedbump on January 19, 2024, 02:10:54 PM
I'm aware of all those developments, but also aware of scale, distance, and development patterns.

The semi-c plants are on the south side of Sherman (there are reasons for that), 17 crow miles from any part of Oklahoma.  The residential subdivision growth resulting from it and the related econ development for the next few decades will be primarily nearby, both Sherman centric and heavily south towards to the new suburbs springing up in Van Alstyn, Anna, and even Melissa.  Parts of Anna may also be 17 miles away, but will be attractive to many because of proximity to DFW amenities, potentially better schools, and more/higher paid jobs for spouses.  Eventually (decades away) the southern/southwestern side will become the least affordable so that some may seek lower prices much further north, but not a significant factor for years to come.  For now Anna and such are affordable housing outlets for McKinney/Plano/Frisco jobs.  And there is and will continue to be for many years even cheaper land to the east, west, and north of Sherman.  Sherman-Denison will boom, but relatively it still won't be huge, there is tons of land, and the Denison side will have a slower rate, being furthest away (and other reasons).  Grayson County was 120k in 2010, 135k in 2020.  Going to 200k, 300k, or even 400k is not going to push much growth to the north side of Lake Texoma.  Too much available land in between to the east, west, and south.

You do realize the Craig development with the Margaritaville has 7,500 homes planned, right?  And that is right up next to the lake.  Not saying growth will leapfrog over to the Oklahoma side, but that immediate area provides favorable terrain, tree cover, and views over many of the flat prairies between Anna and Lake Texoma.  It is also worth pointing out that Durant is the fastest growing city in Oklahoma outside of OKC & Tulsa metros.  It's spilling over.

(https://gray-kxii-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/v2/A52UTTIZZ5ACXGK7HH7BFTUP7M.jpeg)

Oof.  Us Americans are great at uglifying pretty spots.

Quote from: I-35 on January 19, 2024, 03:13:22 PM


You do realize the Craig development with the Margaritaville has 7,500 homes planned, right?  And that is right up next to the lake.  Not saying growth will leapfrog over to the Oklahoma side, but that immediate area provides favorable terrain, tree cover, and views over many of the flat prairies between Anna and Lake Texoma.  It is also worth pointing out that Durant is the fastest growing city in Oklahoma outside of OKC & Tulsa metros.  It's spilling over.

(https://gray-kxii-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/v2/A52UTTIZZ5ACXGK7HH7BFTUP7M.jpeg)

But scale.  7500 homes, part retirement and vacation, so maybe 15-20k residents.  300-room hotel, add another 1k, maybe another 1k workers for it and various spinoff support businesses.  How many of those would be commuting to the northwest side of the lake or creating much demand for a bridge from the next peninsula over?  Mville will be 10 miles/10 minutes from the 75 bridge to Oklahoma.  And again, is on the Texas side.  While I left some exceptions for recreation/resort growth, there's all that wide open space all around when you get away from the lakefront hills.  Not going to fill in much for decades.

Durant is part of the much larger Bryan County, OK, which went from 42k in 2010 to 46k in 2020.  A whopping whole + 4,000 people.  Scale matters.  Hence my earlier mention of how percentage growth is misleading with a small population base.  If the county doubles in population this decade that's +46k.  Unlikely, and what percentage of those would regularly use a bridge across the lake the next county over, 15 miles to the southwest of Durant?  (But further driving wise because of the lack of east-west bridges over a northern arm of the lake.)  Other than lakefront property, the first area for significant growth on the OK side of the river will be along 75, not the northwest side of the lake.

This is not at all a knock on Sherm-Den or Oklahoma.  Good for them and their efforts at growth.  I love some of the hilly scenery up there.  Just keeping scale and timeline in a realistic perspective.  It's going to be hard to economically justify a middle of the lake north-south bridge for a long, long time (though politics can sometimes bypass the actual need requirements....)

Even if the area population growth has minimal increase, wouldn't the Lake Texoma area still see a drastic increase in traffic any ways ??

I do think the Texas side of Lake Texoma between the US-377 and US-75 bridges is going to fill in with a lot more homes and resorts in the years ahead.

The DFW region is still growing. As Texas continues to attract a lot of high income earners leaving states like California the trend will fuel construction of more resorts, vacation homes, etc on the Texas side of the lake. I think more of the building activity will happen on the East, deeper side of the lake, closer to Denison Dam. I would expect a good amount of growth in the town of Denison itself.

Still, I don't see a case of building another bridge across Lake Texoma. There isn't enough good connecting roads and locations of interest on the other side of the lake, which is unfortunate since Oklahoma has more develop-able miles of shoreline along Lake Texoma.

Look at where the Hard Rock Casino-Hotel resort is proposed. It will be built near US-70, on the West side of the lake where the US-70 bridge crosses. That's well North of all the land points that extend much closer to Texas. The key thing is highway access. US-70 at least has some potential of being improved and even widened. The Hard Rock resort might help make the case to replace that old bridge with a new 4-lane twin span bridge.

I'm not optimistic for any big things to happen on Oklahoma's side of Lake Texoma. I don't consider more casinos to be a "big thing" either. Oklahoma's state government has very little in the way of big picture infrastructure plans for that area (much less the rest of the state). The state's public education system is a sad joke, one that's only going to worsen as they let pop-up charters steal limited funding in fly by night fashion. It's all part of fighting culture wars. The point is: Oklahoma is not a great location choice for a working class family raising kids. Oklahoma's tribal governments aren't any better. They could work together to accomplish some big things. But they don't. No one wants to risk one tribe taking credit for something other tribes did. Here in Lawton I see the Kiowas, Comanches and Apaches disagreeing on all sorts of stuff. Anyway, I think Oklahoma is pretty screwed unless some fundamental shifts in politics happen.

Quote from: I-35 on January 17, 2024, 03:09:56 PM

Quote from: bwana39 on January 17, 2024, 02:41:27 PM

Quote from: I-35 on January 17, 2024, 02:08:39 PM
Well, this newly announced project will certainly necessitate a better connection to US-75, or at least twinning the US-70 bridge across Lake Texoma.

Hard Rock says it's planning to build a 189-room hotel and conference center on Lake Texoma (https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/hard-rock-planning-build-189-room-hotel-conference-center-lake-texoma/287-07405d1b-1984-40c2-abd3-31dd51f32f08)

This is located near Kingston, about 15 miles west of Durant on US-70, and is part of a very large development named Pointe Vista, which has the backing of the Chickasaw Nation.  In a perfect world, an extension of TX-289 up through the Preston peninsula and onto a new bridge across the lake would intersect US-70 very near this project.  I don't see how this could get built without tolling the bridge, though.  There are already ongoing feasibility studies (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) for twinning the US-70 Roosevelt bridge, including a couple of options converting the existing substandard bridge to a ped/bike crossing and adding two new freeway-quality spans parallel to the existing bridge.

https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/ (https://us70laketexoma.transportationplanroom.com/) Is the project website. If they can figure out the money Alternative 5 is the probable choice.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/42c0e769926c4298bb20d622f2b296df)

I was wondering about that.  It would be nice if this area was upgraded to full freeway, and perhaps that is still an option with Alternative 5, to tie into the western Durant bypass.

Not gonna happen. A quick glance at US70 from Kingston to the Durant bypass shows a lot of development along either side of the highway, especially east of Texoma. If ODOT can't pay for a new Roosevelt bridge, then they definitely can't pay for a freeway

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 21, 2024, 12:36:10 PM
Oklahoma's tribal governments aren't any better. They could work together to accomplish some big things. But they don't. No one wants to risk one tribe taking credit for something other tribes did. Here in Lawton I see the Kiowas, Comanches and Apaches disagreeing on all sorts of stuff. Anyway, I think Oklahoma is pretty screwed unless some fundamental shifts in politics happen.

It sort of depends on the tribe. The bigger tribes tend to be more willing to collaborate on things, especially if it pokes the state government in the eye. The smaller tribes, not so much necessarily.

Keep in mind that some of the tribes have grudges against each other that go back thousands of years for all kinds of complicated reasons. To give one example, the Chickasaw and Choctaw were once one tribe, but split apart hundreds and hundreds of years ago over a disagreement regarding which way a pole was leaning. (Their deity was believed to cause the pole to lean in the direction he wanted them to travel, so it was basically a religious schism.) They've only in the last hundred years or so been able to get past that and work together.

People are people.

Speaking of people are people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzGnX-MbYE4.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 22, 2024, 06:39:35 PM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on January 21, 2024, 12:36:10 PM
Oklahoma's tribal governments aren't any better. They could work together to accomplish some big things. But they don't. No one wants to risk one tribe taking credit for something other tribes did. Here in Lawton I see the Kiowas, Comanches and Apaches disagreeing on all sorts of stuff. Anyway, I think Oklahoma is pretty screwed unless some fundamental shifts in politics happen.

It sort of depends on the tribe. The bigger tribes tend to be more willing to collaborate on things, especially if it pokes the state government in the eye. The smaller tribes, not so much necessarily.

Keep in mind that some of the tribes have grudges against each other that go back thousands of years for all kinds of complicated reasons. To give one example, the Chickasaw and Choctaw were once one tribe, but split apart hundreds and hundreds of years ago over a disagreement regarding which way a pole was leaning. (Their deity was believed to cause the pole to lean in the direction he wanted them to travel, so it was basically a religious schism.) They've only in the last hundred years or so been able to get past that and work together.

People are people.

Four of the five "civilized tribes" are Muskogean. The Choctaw and Chickasaw are/were the western Muskogean people and their languages are largely mutually intelligible. They are closely related to the eastern Muskogean people that today are the Muscogee (Creek) tribe and the Seminole Tribe. The Seminole split from the Muscogee during the period of the Creek War, relocation and trail of tears in the early 19th century. The Muscogee and Seminole languages are mutually intelligible.

https://www.kxii.com/2024/02/05/us-highway-75-construction-coming-north-sherman-denison

[/quote]
SHERMAN, Texas (KXII) - Construction will begin on US Highway 75 in north Sherman and south Denison on February 12 as part of the ongoing expansion project.

This $196 million project will span about four miles from the US Highway 75-82 intersection in Sherman to North Loy Lake Rd. in Denison.

Texas Department of Transportation Spokesperson, Tim McAlavy, said the project will expand the roadway from two lanes to three lanes in each direction.

City of Sherman Spokesperson, Nate Strauch, said that eventually there will be six lanes stretching to the Oklahoma border.


McAlavy said continuous frontage roads will be added and intersections along 75 will be improved.

For this phase of the highway expansion, Denison will see the most changes.

McAlavy said bridges will be reconstructed at FM 691 as well as Iron Ore Creek and Spur 503.

He adds that U-turn bridges will be added to North Loy Lake Road and Spur 503.

[/quote]

Quote from: Road Hog on January 18, 2024, 02:30:02 PM
TxDOT will have to seriously upgrade TX 289 (a former FM road) between Pottsboro and the lake to accommodate a new bridge/causeway, but I'm not against the idea.

Well, it's in the works and a lot of people are not happy about it.
https://www.kten.com/story/49883468/plan-to-widen-state-highway-289-north-from-pottsboro

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on January 19, 2024, 02:14:19 PM
I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.

That's been their wish since talk of "closing the gap" in Sherman began over a decade ago. Now that it's nearly complete, I'd like to hear current leadership speak about this move. Here's the last I've seen publicly. https://www.kxii.com/content/news/US-75-stretch-in-Sherman-only-section-in-Texas-not-up-to-interstate-standards-465287963.html

And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

Quote from: rtXC1Well, it's in the works and a lot of people are not happy about it.
https://www.kten.com/story/49883468/plan-to-widen-state-highway-289-north-from-pottsboro

Upgrading TX-289 to a 4-lane street with a center turn lane should have been seen as an inevitable outcome for anyone living in that area. As more homes and businesses continue to get built out there the local roads will have to be widened. I would expect Texoma Drive (CR-84) to get similar treatment. Still, that doesn't mean a new bridge is going to be built across that location of Lake Texoma any time soon.

Quote from: rtXC1And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

There is zero point at all of extending the I-45 designation North of downtown Dallas if all such an extension would do is end at the Red River. The extension would at least have reach I-40 to be worth doing at all.

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on January 19, 2024, 02:14:19 PM
I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.

That's been their wish since talk of "closing the gap" in Sherman began over a decade ago. Now that it's nearly complete, I'd like to hear current leadership speak about this move. Here's the last I've seen publicly. https://www.kxii.com/content/news/US-75-stretch-in-Sherman-only-section-in-Texas-not-up-to-interstate-standards-465287963.html

And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:44:54 AM

Quote from: Road Hog on January 18, 2024, 02:30:02 PM
TxDOT will have to seriously upgrade TX 289 (a former FM road) between Pottsboro and the lake to accommodate a new bridge/causeway, but I'm not against the idea.

Well, it's in the works and a lot of people are not happy about it.
https://www.kten.com/story/49883468/plan-to-widen-state-highway-289-north-from-pottsboro

Interesting goof in the linked article.  Near the top, it says "Lamar and Grayson Counties".  Later it actually tells the extent of the work: Pottsboro to the end at Elks Lane.  I wonder where they got Lamar County from; that's where Paris is, *two counties* away.  Either way, the project hasn't started, so there's time if the station wants to issue a correction.

I wonder if one of the existing lakeside spots is pushing for this, as it won't benefit the Margaritaville-Preston Harbor development.

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?

I-41 says hello (even though it starts and ends at I-94/US 41 interchange just below the state line)
I-11 says hello (for now)

Quote from: Strider on February 19, 2024, 11:59:42 PM
I-41 says hello (even though it starts and ends at I-94/US 41 interchange just below the state line)

1.  Silly highway.
2.  Also, yes, it ends at a highway junction, not at a state line.
3.  It really shouldn't be designated at all south of Milwaukee anyway.

Quote from: Strider on February 19, 2024, 11:59:42 PM
I-11 says hello (for now)

And nobody would say that "I-11 can and should simply end at the Colorado River".

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?

Eventually, though, it should terminate @ I-44 @ Big Cabin.  That's the route trucks take, am assuming.  There is a limited access portion of US - 69 N of McAlester that would be utilized, and largely/may meet standards.   The possibility of using the Indian Nation, and US - 75 into Tulsa, using existing expressways inside Tulsa, and then US - 169 up to the southern edges of the KC metro is an interesting alternative, although it's not likely where the trucking is.   Have been on US - 169 NE of Tulsa, and it is a decent road for a stretch, before it peters out.   

Quote from: DJStephens on February 20, 2024, 04:06:08 PM
That's the route trucks take, am assuming.

(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/nat_freight_stats/images/lo_res_jpg/nhslnghultrktraf2045.jpg)

I've seen that chart before. That reading for US-69 in Oklahoma from the Red River to Big Cabin looks very fishy to me. I've driven on I-44 thru Big Cabin to places like Joplin, St Louis (and farther) many times. Big numbers of trucks get on/off I-44 at Big Cabin. Anyone will already see quite a few trucks on I-44 between OKC and Tulsa. But the volume of trucks really picks up once you get East of Big Cabin. That is a major junction point. You can plainly see it when passing that exit. Lots of trucks get off I-44 headed toward DFW or they get on I-44 heading for St Louis.

Well, if am reading the title correctly, its a "future" projection twenty years out.  And also likely assuming no major improvements are made to the US - 69 corridor.  Using it (US 75/69), as opposed to I-35/I-44, allows for a complete bypassing of the OKC & Tulsa metros, to their E, and also for toll savings by avoidance of all of the Turner, and a good chunk of the Will Rogers.   Appears to be shorter, and more direct, also.   

Quote from: DJStephens on February 20, 2024, 05:16:39 PM
Well, if am reading the title correctly, its a "future" projection twenty years out.

True, but I'm not aware of any map more current than 2013 (see below):

(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/nat_freight_stats/images/lo_res_jpg/mjrfreightcorridors.jpg)

The forecast for twenty years out was based on 2012 data (see below):

(https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/23cpr/images/chap11/chap11-exhibit-11-9.png)

You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.

Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2024, 07:35:40 PM
You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.

Their list of bottlenecks, in case you're interested, is up to date as of 2021:  https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/mobility_trends/national_list_2021.htm

There's all sorts of charts and maps here (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop20073/), but I don't see an up-to-date version of that freight corridor map.

Quote from: kphoger on February 20, 2024, 08:46:10 PM

Quote from: Rothman on February 20, 2024, 07:35:40 PM
You'd think they would have updated those maps by now.  Freight projects even back then got a bunch of shrugs.  That was also the era where Cambridge Systematics got laughed out of the room when they said the Williamsville Toll Barrier on the Thruway was the worst freight bottleneck in the country.

Their list of bottlenecks, in case you're interested, is up to date as of 2021:  https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/mobility_trends/national_list_2021.htm

There's all sorts of charts and maps here (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop20073/), but I don't see an up-to-date version of that freight corridor map.

The bottleneck list pretty much has urban areas and concurrencies, not longer rural congested corridors.  Makes sense, though as that's typically where the most egregious congestion exists.

The "embolism" map should definitely be updated within a year or two with Covid and boomer retirements affecting freight connections, although it's still going to be shaking out over the next several years as more boomers retire from the workforce and pull their capital back out of the system slowly.

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?

It should open in phases up to Big Cabin (at the very least). With Texas having both a plan and funding, the interstate designation shouldn't be reliant on what Oklahoma does or does not do.

Quote from: rtXC1 on March 15, 2024, 05:50:34 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 19, 2024, 05:14:24 PM

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

It doesn't even make sense as an endpoint anyway.  Why would a "federal" designation end at a state line?

It should open in phases up to Big Cabin (at the very least). With Texas having both a plan and funding, the interstate designation shouldn't be reliant on what Oklahoma does or does not do.

It could also also put pressure on Oklahoma to actually do something.

I believe the AASHTO rule is an interstate highway can end at an intersection with a US highway. That definition is satisfied by the intersection of US 75 and US 69 a mile south of the Red River. So not ending at the river per se.

Quote from: MikieTimT on February 19, 2024, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: rtXC1 on February 19, 2024, 10:54:51 AM

Quote from: -- US 175 -- on January 19, 2024, 02:14:19 PM
I wonder if the Hard Rock and Margaritaville-Preston Harbor announcements have put any further emphasis on plans like Sherman's to look into interstate status for US 75.

That's been their wish since talk of "closing the gap" in Sherman began over a decade ago. Now that it's nearly complete, I'd like to hear current leadership speak about this move. Here's the last I've seen publicly. https://www.kxii.com/content/news/US-75-stretch-in-Sherman-only-section-in-Texas-not-up-to-interstate-standards-465287963.html

And yes, I-45 can and should simply end at the Red River.

I'd disagree with that statement.  FHWA and AASHTO don't typically approve of a 2DI designation that doesn't end at another 2DI or an international border.  Although the Red River was the U.S. border for a period of time, Texas was on the wrong side of it to get federal funds...

But if they proposed its eventual termination at I-40 or I-44 it would become academic.

Quote from: Road Hog on March 15, 2024, 09:32:58 PM
I believe the AASHTO rule is an interstate highway can end at an intersection with a US highway. That definition is satisfied by the intersection of US 75 and US 69 a mile south of the Red River. So not ending at the river per se.

US -70 would be a good choice if this were the case.

Several at-grade intersections are still present on US-69/75 between Colbert and Calera. Plus there is that gravel pull-off area immediately at the North end of the Red River bridge. I assume that is for railroad company use. Those issues have to be fixed before an Interstate can be signed up to US-70 in Durant.

Even if all those issues were fixed, I'm not sure if Oklahoma would be worthy enough to have I-45 signed up to Durant. The problem is past difficulties in Atoka, Stringtown, etc. I'm trying to think of the signing scenario that would put the most pressure on getting those communities to agree to some kind of thru path for a possible I-45 extension.

If the potential I-45 extension was to end at the US-75/US-69 interchange on the North side of Denison, near the edge of the Red River, it could really tease the hell out of people nearby on the other side of the river. Then it might get people in Oklahoma pissed off at each other and increase pressure to get something done.

I just don't think it's good enough for a potential I-45 extension to end unceremoniously at a highway intersection in the town of Durant just North of a huge casino complex. Such an extension, and one carrying a major designation, needs to have a more worthwhile North terminus. I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 15, 2024, 11:24:49 PM
I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

US-69 does tend to be the bigger deal than US-75 in Oklahoma. That said, the interstate if it is ever done should follow US-75 to Tulsa. More aptly follow US-69 to the Indian Nation Turnpike and follow INT and US-62/75 to Tulsa.

Currently , this route is mostly 4-lane divided highway, but would need a lot of work.

Quote from: bwana39 on March 16, 2024, 09:53:09 AM

Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 15, 2024, 11:24:49 PM
I-40 in Checotah. I-44 in Big Cabin would be even better. Some people want I-45 extended to Tulsa.

US-69 does tend to be the bigger deal than US-75 in Oklahoma. That said, the interstate if it is ever done should follow US-75 to Tulsa. More aptly follow US-69 to the Indian Nation Turnpike and follow INT and US-62/75 to Tulsa.

Currently , this route is mostly 4-lane divided highway, but would need a lot of work.

Problem with US-69 as a Future I-45 is, although it is the more direct route between the Dallas and KC area, it serves less population through Oklahoma by avoiding Tulsa, and through Kansas is far too close to I-49 to make sense, even though a significant portion is already 4-lanes, with a good amount of limited access.  It's the same argument that many on this forum make about I-69's closeness with I-55 in Mississippi and I-30/40 in Arkansas.  Now, I see a facility avoiding a population center for the sake of through traffic as a beneficial thing for the sake of congestion, when it comes to the state coming up with 20% of the money to make it happen, that almost never happens with the levers of power in those states having a vested interest in keeping most of the connections of the IHS with the current nodes.  The reason that I-57 will happen in Arkansas with priority as opposed to I-49 and to an even lesser extent, I-69, is because it gives Little Rock yet another interstate connection, keeping the all roads lead to Little Rock theme going as long as they get away with it.  It's why 30 Crossing project got the >$1B funding that it got for more traffic lanes, despite the true traffic need being for beltways to allow through traffic to get around Little Rock rather than I-30 up the gut of LR/NLR that essentially benefits the local commuters.  Oklahoma when it comes to putting pavement on the ground will only due so if it's either done as a turnpike, or benefits OKC/Tulsa.  US-69 being converted to I-45 through Oklahoma will only happen if OTA does it in its entirety.  Now, that would actually be a beneficial turnpike for the state compared to some of the porky far flung projects they've done outside the OKC/Tulsa metros, but we'll have to wait and see if OTA actually does something in modern times other than find bond projects to perpetuate the tolls for pre-existing facilities.

"mileage mike" has a new video discussing some of the history and banalities of the OK turnpike authority.    Such as the routings (some two lane) in remote areas of the state, that connect seemingly nothing to nothing.    Personally, I'd rather pay a higher state (and federal) fuel tax, and abolish just about all of these authorities, which have outlived their purpose and meaning.   

I saw that Mileage Mike video. Some of the information in the video was interesting. He mentioned a bit of information how bonds for the turnpikes were sold and how the debt was carried over for the funding of new turnpikes. The technical term for it is cross-pledging. People in Oklahoma (and elsewhere) complain and claim the turnpikes are paid for and that the tollgates need to be removed. Those who call for toll gates being removed don't factor in costs of maintenance or improvement projects. They also overlook what might happen if 600+ miles of toll roads in Oklahoma are turned over to ODOT to maintain. We pay some of the lowest gasoline tax rates in the nation; that would change quite dramatically if all those turnpikes were turned into "free" roads.

The video mentioned little to nothing about the price of tolls on Oklahoma's turnpikes (or the huge difference in price between PikePass rates and rates for Pay by Plate). The video didn't offer any comparisons of toll rates in Oklahoma versus those in Texas or other states.

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating: a bunch of the limited access highways in Oklahoma (such as I-44 going thru Lawton) would have never ever been built if they had to be funded using gasoline tax dollars.

Quote from: MikieTimTProblem with US-69 as a Future I-45 is, although it is the more direct route between the Dallas and KC area, it serves less population through Oklahoma by avoiding Tulsa, and through Kansas is far too close to I-49 to make sense, even though a significant portion is already 4-lanes, with a good amount of limited access.

Most of the people in this forum advocating for an I-45 extension into Oklahoma are not selling it as a DFW to KC route. The US-69/I-44 interchange in Big Cabin is frequently mentioned as a logical North terminus for an extended I-45 route. It is heavily used by commercial trucks. The trucks are coming up from Texas and headed to various points in the North or Northeast US.

Tulsa is a pretty big city. But even if US-75 was fully upgraded to Interstate standards between Dallas and Tulsa quite a bit of that truck traffic would probably still use I-69. Olkmulgee is a pretty serious obstacle for building a Dallas-Tulsa Interstate.

QuoteIt's the same argument that many on this forum make about I-69's closeness with I-55 in Mississippi and I-30/40 in Arkansas.

Most of the complaints about I-69 in Arkansas (and neighboring states) is just stupidly crooked the route's proposed path is. The extra miles added to the path due to its indirect nature take away much if not all the mileage savings versus picking up I-30 in Texarkana and using I-30 and I-40 to reach Memphis.

I'm skeptical I-45 (or any other Interstate number) will be applied to US-75 going North of Dallas any time soon. Oklahoma's lawmakers and ODOT have given no indication they're interested in any sort of I-45 deal, much less mentioned any preference for where such a route should go. I just don't see the value of extending an Interstate highway with a "major" number North for only a modest number of miles to minor destinations like Denison or Durant.