Place names you got wrong

[J N Winkler]

When I was catching up with Polish expressway construction a few months ago, I struggled to find placenames I didn't get wrong.  Polish orthography requires a major shift of mental gears for English spelling pronouncers.

A few examples:

Ełk--Pronounced more like "ewk" (nothing like elk in English) because the ł is pronounced more like w in English (though this is fraught with class distinctions because the w pronunciation is itself a lower-class usage that became standard Polish a few decades ago).  It's Lyck in German, but there is a whole train's worth of baggage with German pronunciations now.

Rzeszów--Key city on the S19 expressway, home to a GDDKiA branch, and in the news a few months ago when an Ukrainian missile inadvertently crossed the border and killed several residents of a small Polish village.  Per Wikipedia, it's pronounced "ZHESH-oof" (where did the R go)?

Przemyśl--I still haven't made it past the consonant pileup in front.  It's Premissel in German, but the Polish name is used throughout the exhibit on the 1915 siege at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum in Vienna.

[Poiponen13]

Rzeszów--Key city on the S19 expressway, home to a GDDKiA branch, and in the news a few months ago when an Ukrainian missile inadvertently crossed the border and killed several residents of a small Polish village.  Per Wikipedia, it's pronounced "ZHESH-oof" (where did the R go)?

The "rz" is pronounced like "ZH". Exactly like Ż.[/font]

[kphoger]

Polish

I befriended a Polish exchange student in high school, and my family later traveled to Poland on vacation.  As such, I'm fairly comfortable with pronouncing the Polish language.

Here are the basics to keep in mind:

Ł – kind of like English W, close enough to be understood
Ć, Ś, Ź – like English CH, SH, ZH (think of the diacritic as adding an H in English)
Ż – similar to Ź, with some added fricative force to get you closer
Ń – like Spanish Ã'
RZ – like Ż

Ą, Ę – nasal, kind of like French AN, EN
Ã" – kind of like English OO as in BOOK

As a rule, stress falls on the penultimate syllable.



So Przemyśl is just P-ZHE-MISH-LL

My friend from high school was Maciej Przerwa:  MA-CHEY P-ZHER-VAH

[Poiponen13]

Polish

I befriended a Polish exchange student in high school, and my family later traveled to Poland on vacation.  As such, I'm fairly comfortable with pronouncing the Polish language.

Here are the basics to keep in mind:

Ł – kind of like English W, close enough to be understood
Ć, Ś, Ź – like English CH, SH, ZH (think of the diacritic as adding an H in English)
Ż – similar to Ź, with some added fricative force to get you closer
Ń – like Spanish Ã'
RZ – like Ż

Ą, Ę – nasal, kind of like French AN, EN
Ã" – kind of like English OO as in BOOK

As a rule, stress falls on the penultimate syllable.



So Przemyśl is just P-ZHE-MISH-LL

My friend from high school was Maciej Przerwa:  MA-CHEY P-ZHER-VAH

I don't like approximating the Polish Ã" sound as "OO". I would approximate it as "U". And there are also digraphs CZ, DZ, DŹ, DŻ and SZ. CZ has "ch" sound, DZ is like in "beds", [size=78%] [/size]DŹ is like J, DŻ is also like J, and SZ is like "sh".

[hotdogPi]

[size=78%] [/size]

So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?

[Poiponen13]

So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?

I copied the two Z's from kphoger's post because I don't have ability to type them in my keyboard. But they appeared in smaller size and I changed them to normal size.

[kphoger]

I don't like approximating the Polish Ã" sound as "OO". I would approximate it as "U".

I'm good with that too.

And there are also digraphs CZ, DZ, DŹ, DŻ and SZ.

CZ has "ch" sound, DZ is like in "beds", DŹ is like J, DŻ is also like J, and SZ is like "sh".

CZ is similar to other eastern European languages, with which I assumed Jonathan was already comfortable, and likewise SZ (Hungarian is the outlier).  The other three are easily arrived at by not even thinking of them as digraphs at all.  Just think of them as individual letters, and you'll be fine.

Besides, this wasn't intended to be an exhaustive pronunciation guide.  Just a short list to make the trickier things easier.

So you've been speaking Polish all along with those size tags?

I copied the two Z's from kphoger's post because I don't have ability to type them in my keyboard. But they appeared in smaller size and I changed them to normal size.

Yeah, your size tags are annoying.  I do my best to remove them when quoting you now.

[1995hoo]

Since street names have come up in this thread, I'll mention one I've probably mentioned somewhere before. When I was a little kid, the next neighborhood over from ours had two streets named Broken Arrow Court and Broken Knife Court. One of my brother's classmates lived on Broken Knife Court. My mother misread the street name and was baffled as to why anyone would want to live on a street with such a horrible name–she thought the sign said "Broken Knee Court." 

Speaking of my mom, she and my wife and I were in New York earlier this month for a family event and I made a reference to the Kosciuszko Bridge on I-278, but I pronounced it correctly as it would be pronounced in Polish. My mom immediately said that was "wrong" because she said it should be like "Kahs-KEE-ahs-ko." Certainly a lot of people in New York say it that way, of course, but that's doesn't make it "right" (sort of like if you were to sound out "Krzyzewski").

[kphoger]

Speaking of my mom, she and my wife and I were in New York earlier this month for a family event and I made a reference to the Kosciuszko Bridge on I-278, but I pronounced it correctly as it would be pronounced in Polish. My mom immediately said that was "wrong" because she said it should be like "Kahs-KEE-ahs-ko." Certainly a lot of people in New York say it that way, of course, but that's doesn't make it "right" (sort of like if you were to sound out "Krzyzewski").

Reminds me of a story my mom told.  She was working at a clinic here in Wichita, and a lady came whose name was Eloise.  My mom pronounced it as "ELL-oh-eeze", but the lady sternly corrected her:  "That's uh-LOY-see, honey."

[mgk920]

I can't help but laugh at how many network sports guys and gals get Green Bay, WI wrong.  It is 'green bay' (equal soft emphasis on both words), NOT 'GREEN bay'.

Mike

[JayhawkCO]

I'm not a Wisconsinite, but I've always heard the correct stress to be on "Bay".

[Big John]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

[abefroman329]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

Ill-uh-noise would like to have a word with you.

[kphoger]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk, or pillow as pellow.

[TheHighwayMan3561]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk, or pillow as pellow.

I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.

You betcha.

[GaryV]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

More like Wesgonsin.

[Rothman]

And how many people mispronounce Wisconsin as Wesconsin.

The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk, or pillow as pellow.

I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.

You betcha.

I hang a fleg every morning...

[abefroman329]

The same number as Wisconsinites who mispronounce milk as melk

I've heard this from people from Michigan as well, and I wonder how much of it has to do with the fact that the Dutch word for milk is, in fact, melk.

[kphoger]

I would like my melk in a beyyyyg please.

You betcha.

Would you like that to be vanella flavor?

(Are you lactose intolerant, and would prefer Selk brand?    )

[Scott5114]

If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?

Personally, I normally use periods.

[index]

For the longest time, I read Tumwater, WA as Turnwater.

[kphoger]

If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?

Personally, I normally use periods.

Thank you for a useful comeback!

– What do you want me to put that in?
– You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.
– I didn't.  I ended it with a question mark.

[kurumi]

Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.

Vur-Sails, CT  (Versailles)
Doo Boys, PA and Doo Boys, WY  (DuBois)

However, Wyoming pronounces Gros Ventre ("grow vahnt") about right IMO
Sioux Falls and Sioux City have a silent "x" which is a good start

Des Moines - halfway there?

[kphoger]

Literally any French name in the US is butchered beyond belief.

Vur-Sails, CT  (Versailles)
Doo Boys, PA and Doo Boys, WY  (DuBois)

However, Wyoming pronounces Gros Ventre ("grow vahnt") about right IMO
Sioux Falls and Sioux City have a silent "x" which is a good start

Des Moines - halfway there?

I think Marquette and Rochelle do pretty well with their names.

[abefroman329]

My parents lived in Bourbonnais at a time when the mayor was making a big push to get people to stop pronouncing it "boor-ban-us"