Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Alps]

I saw this little goof from Vermont DOT.  Looks like VT-207 along with VT-235 was promoted to US highways.
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0068108,-72.9794095,3a,75y,236.07h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sErriVu_s3yniS4rUjP46ZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

quiet, you're ruining my next site update!

[froggie]

Also mentioned elsewhere (and perhaps on this forum too) years ago.

[yakra]

quiet, you're ruining my next site update!

LOL, you said siteupdate.

[webfil]

I saw this little goof from Vermont DOT.  Looks like VT-207 along with VT-235 was promoted to US highways.

It's not a VtDOT goof; VT-235 is maintained by the town of Franklin for its whole length. From my many bike trips there, I remember most (if not all) the 207 and 235 signs being all in US-highway style in Franklin, while in Highgate, the trailblazers are signed correctly.

[shadyjay]

There are several routes statewide that are town-maintained and have unique markers (or old school circle markers).  There's one at the western end of Route 121 at the south end of Bellows Falls, and in Burlington there used to be some US 127 shields at the south end of the Beltline.

[froggie]

^ "US 127" shields still existed in the Old North End as of about a year ago.

[abqtraveler]

I just bought my 2022 Rand McNally Road Atlas. Of particular note, it now shows exit numbers on all of Vermont's highways as mileage-based. My understanding is that Vermont now has added "Milepoint Exit" numbers on placards below exit signs, but still keeps the existing sequential numbers on the exit tabs. I'm guessing that Rand McNally is leaning forward a bit in giving Vermont credit for converting to the mile-based exit numbering scheme?

[froggie]

More or less.

[shadyjay]

They did that with the Circ one, saying it was under construction from Williston north to Essex. Next year it was removed. 

[abqtraveler]

They did that with the Circ one, saying it was under construction from Williston north to Essex. Next year it was removed.

If I recall correctly, back in the early 2000s, VTRANS actually started construction to complete the Circ, but that construction was shut down by lawsuits brought on by highway opponents. The judge at the time ruled that the original EIS was outdated and had to be redone before construction could resume. By the time the new EIS was published in 2011, the governor announced the cancellation of the Circ.

But back to construction in the early 2000s, they got as far as clearing out trees in portions of the ROW before the project was shut down by the judge's ruling.

[roadman65]

😯! It’s about time. Vtrans not only have much better guide signs on VT 9 at I-91, but better controls for I-91.  No more “ Massachusetts” for I-91 SB and Putney, VT for I-91 NB!

The state name and considering Putney is in the same state, putting Vt with it was not needed. However Springfield and White River are more appropriate control cities anyway.  Though I am surprised Springfield is closer to Brattleboro than White River as the WB guide on VT 9 lists the mileages as they did not erect a gantry in that direction.

Anyway, those old ones needed updating for a while.  Too bad they don’t create a Business Route 9 and have VT 9 concur with I-91 from exits 2 to 3. They still have a Keene, NH sign going EB with a TO VT 9 posted. Why not do that?

[FlatlanderinVT]

😯! It’s about time. Vtrans not only have much better guide signs on VT 9 at I-91, but better controls for I-91.  No more “ Massachusetts” for I-91 SB and Putney, VT for I-91 NB!

The state name and considering Putney is in the same state, putting Vt with it was not needed. However Springfield and White River are more appropriate control cities anyway.  Though I am surprised Springfield is closer to Brattleboro than White River as the WB guide on VT 9 lists the mileages as they did not erect a gantry in that direction.

Anyway, those old ones needed updating for a while.  Too bad they don’t create a Business Route 9 and have VT 9 concur with I-91 from exits 2 to 3. They still have a Keene, NH sign going EB with a TO VT 9 posted. Why not do that?

Living in the very southern part of Vermont I drive to Brattleboro extremely often and right through this interchange. I guess I do it so frequently that I didn't even pay attention to this change. 

Interesting that you mention VT-9 running concurrent with I-91 from there to Exit 3. It made me think that off the top of my head I can't think of a single instance of a state route being concurrent on any of the interstates in Vermont. I'm not sure if it is just a coincidence or if there is some reason for it. I suppose there are actually very few instances like this one where it would make sense of course but it is something interesting to ponder.

[shadyjay]

To I-91 motorists, VT 9 West is accessed off Exit 2 and VT 9 East is Exit 3.  You wouldn't necessarily get off Exit 2 and go east on VT 9 to NH 9 to Keene.  You could, but it would be time consuming and unnecessary. 

There is not a case of any state or US route multiplexing with an interstate in Vermont.  In fact, that is almost the case with the entire length of I-91, except for about 1/4 mile distance in south Springfield, MA where US 5 hops on, but doesn't get out of the far right operational lane. 

If there was a case for a concurrency, then VT 9 in Brattleboro would be it.  But it still is signed officially through downtown.  Prior to the Exit 2 signs being replaced, they did read " 9 WEST ".  Now they just read "9", but they kept the supplemental "To 9 EAST/Keene/Use Exit 3". 

[Rothman]

Isn't US 20 concurrent with I-91 for a short while as well?

[jp the roadgeek]

Isn't US 20 concurrent with I-91 for a short while as well?

Not quite.  It runs on frontage roads along I-91, but never joins the mainline.  It is, however, concurrent with I-291 west of Exit 4.

[vdeane]

So, having seen milepoint exit numbers firsthand today, I'm even less sure how FHWA approved this in lieu of actually converting.  They're signed even less frequently than former exit numbers are (only one per interchange per direction), and VTrans isn't wholly consistent about placement, either.  It's the last sign prior to the gore more often than not, but exceptions are frequent enough that this cannot be relied upon.  It is in no way possible to navigate to an exit with the milepoint number - it's quite clear that VTrans just did the minimum necessary to get FHWA off their backs in the hope that the conversion mandate will just go away before the 2030 proper switch timetable they gave FHWA comes around (given that they were originally going to convert last year before this milepoint thing happened, I'm not holding my breath).  It's a shame - Vermont is absolutely perfect for mile-based exit numbers and it would make gauging distances on the interstate much easier (they at least have regularly posted distance signs with a nice system of using the next exit and next major control city, but that requires doing math relative to the milemarkers).  One thing is certain - Rand McNally should not have used the milepoint numbers in their atlases.

I also went to the travel service center off exit 7.  Overall it struck me as similar to a Sheetz or Wawa but with paper slips instead of touch screens.  That said, it's a very strange system to order and pay for hot "MTO" food.  You need to grab and fill out a slip and give it to the clerk.  Nobody tells you this, so if the clerk notices you they end up grabbing it for you and you fill it out in front of them.  Then you need to ask them for a printed slip (similar to what Sheetz and Wawa print off the ordering machines), because they won't just give it to you, even though they are necessary to pay for the order!  I only found out when I got to the cash register with my food and was told that I needed a slip that nobody gave me and had no way of knowing about.  Overall, despite being a "traveler service center", it seems to be geared more towards locals than travelers.  They even have some grocery items like frozen food.

[5foot14]

So, having seen milepoint exit numbers firsthand today, I'm even less sure how FHWA approved this in lieu of actually converting.  They're signed even less frequently than former exit numbers are (only one per interchange per direction), and VTrans isn't wholly consistent about placement, either.  It's the last sign prior to the gore more often than not, but exceptions are frequent enough that this cannot be relied upon.  It is in no way possible to navigate to an exit with the milepoint number - it's quite clear that VTrans just did the minimum necessary to get FHWA off their backs in the hope that the conversion mandate will just go away before the 2030 proper switch timetable they gave FHWA comes around (given that they were originally going to convert last year before this milepoint thing happened, I'm not holding my breath).  It's a shame - Vermont is absolutely perfect for mile-based exit numbers and it would make gauging distances on the interstate much easier (they at least have regularly posted distance signs with a nice system of using the next exit and next major control city, but that requires doing math relative to the milemarkers).  One thing is certain - Rand McNally should not have used the milepoint numbers in their atlases.

I also went to the travel service center off exit 7.  Overall it struck me as similar to a Sheetz or Wawa but with paper slips instead of touch screens.  That said, it's a very strange system to order and pay for hot "MTO" food.  You need to grab and fill out a slip and give it to the clerk.  Nobody tells you this, so if the clerk notices you they end up grabbing it for you and you fill it out in front of them.  Then you need to ask them for a printed slip (similar to what Sheetz and Wawa print off the ordering machines), because they won't just give it to you, even though they are necessary to pay for the order!  I only found out when I got to the cash register with my food and was told that I needed a slip that nobody gave me and had no way of knowing about.  Overall, despite being a "traveler service center", it seems to be geared more towards locals than travelers.  They even have some grocery items like frozen food.

I took a trip up 89 to Waterbury a few weeks ago, and I agree the milepoint numbers are completely useless. Maybe if they had put them on more than one of the advance exit signs and the gore signs they might be useful but as is they just aren't. Also the font is too small to be read from a distance. I can't believe FHWA signed off on that...

SM-A515U

[abqtraveler]

So, having seen milepoint exit numbers firsthand today, I'm even less sure how FHWA approved this in lieu of actually converting.  They're signed even less frequently than former exit numbers are (only one per interchange per direction), and VTrans isn't wholly consistent about placement, either.  It's the last sign prior to the gore more often than not, but exceptions are frequent enough that this cannot be relied upon.  It is in no way possible to navigate to an exit with the milepoint number - it's quite clear that VTrans just did the minimum necessary to get FHWA off their backs in the hope that the conversion mandate will just go away before the 2030 proper switch timetable they gave FHWA comes around (given that they were originally going to convert last year before this milepoint thing happened, I'm not holding my breath).  It's a shame - Vermont is absolutely perfect for mile-based exit numbers and it would make gauging distances on the interstate much easier (they at least have regularly posted distance signs with a nice system of using the next exit and next major control city, but that requires doing math relative to the milemarkers).  One thing is certain - Rand McNally should not have used the milepoint numbers in their atlases.

I also went to the travel service center off exit 7.  Overall it struck me as similar to a Sheetz or Wawa but with paper slips instead of touch screens.  That said, it's a very strange system to order and pay for hot "MTO" food.  You need to grab and fill out a slip and give it to the clerk.  Nobody tells you this, so if the clerk notices you they end up grabbing it for you and you fill it out in front of them.  Then you need to ask them for a printed slip (similar to what Sheetz and Wawa print off the ordering machines), because they won't just give it to you, even though they are necessary to pay for the order!  I only found out when I got to the cash register with my food and was told that I needed a slip that nobody gave me and had no way of knowing about.  Overall, despite being a "traveler service center", it seems to be geared more towards locals than travelers.  They even have some grocery items like frozen food.

I took a trip up 89 to Waterbury a few weeks ago, and I agree the milepoint numbers are completely useless. Maybe if they had put them on more than one of the advance exit signs and the gore signs they might be useful but as is they just aren't. Also the font is too small to be read from a distance. I can't believe FHWA signed off on that...

SM-A515U

Which is why I think Rand McNally jumped the gun in labeling Vermont's exits as mile-based in their 2022 Road Atlas. I'm curious as to whether Rand McNally will backpedal and revert to sequential exits for its 2023 atlas, as the milepoint exit numbers are not prominently displayed on all guide signs.

[Mdcastle]

Did Vermont use the color yellow for their highway signs for a time after the demise of the New England route numbering system?

[kramie13]

So, having seen milepoint exit numbers firsthand today, I'm even less sure how FHWA approved this in lieu of actually converting.  They're signed even less frequently than former exit numbers are (only one per interchange per direction), and VTrans isn't wholly consistent about placement, either.  It's the last sign prior to the gore more often than not, but exceptions are frequent enough that this cannot be relied upon.

I was in VT a couple of weeks ago and found it rather jarring that instead of a full-fledged exit number conversion like Massachusetts did, each exit on I-89 and I-91 had "milepoint exit xx" on random exit signs.  Sometimes they were at the 1 mile sign, other times at the sign with the exit arrow (not the gore, but the one with the route number).

Also, on I-89, if you travel north from NH, the first exit is for I-91, but that interchange is not numbered, then the 2nd exit after crossing the state line on I-89 is in fact, exit 1.  Why is this?

[froggie]

In the early Interstate days, exit numbers were not required at Interstate-to-Interstate junctions.  Some were later added (such as I-91 having exit numbers at I-89).  Others weren't.

[shadyjay]

Found this still in the wild a couple weeks ago, off US 4 West at Exit 5...

US4WB-Exit05-ramp by Jay Hogan, on Flickr

...this sign harkens back to when there were extruded aluminum signs at offramps (they lasted on I-91 north of WRJ into the 2000s).  Also back then, onramps had large extruded signs as well, similar to CT's highway onramps.  Starting in the 90s, onramp signs were changed to sheet aluminum signs and most of the extruded ones came down, except where overhead (and even some overhead ones came down, or where replaced).

And there's still that lone button copy sign still up just south of US 4 on a side road adjacent to US 7, despite other signs replaced in the area.

[Alps]

And there's still that lone button copy sign still up just south of US 4 on a side road adjacent to US 7, despite other signs replaced in the area.

¿perdon?

[shadyjay]

And there's still that lone button copy sign still up just south of US 4 on a side road adjacent to US 7, despite other signs replaced in the area.

¿perdon?

This little guy...

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5751198,-72.9665481,3a,90y,243.84h,80.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4To8KSiMcHXeimA5hidyBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

[Alps]

And there's still that lone button copy sign still up just south of US 4 on a side road adjacent to US 7, despite other signs replaced in the area.

¿perdon?

This little guy...

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5751198,-72.9665481,3a,90y,243.84h,80.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4To8KSiMcHXeimA5hidyBQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

We call those "jughandles"