Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ran4sh]

I don't think that's really an issue tbh. (1) despite the common perception that these lanes are for rich people, or the nickname "lexus lanes", the fact is that all income levels are sometimes willing to pay in order to avoid congestion and get to their destination on time,

Those that are more wealthy and have more discretionary income, and aren’t cash-strapped, may be more able to pay it everyday

That's the exact point that people think is true but is really not. Wealthy people don't use the lanes every day just because they can. Most wealthy people actually understand that there is a tradeoff between time and money for that kind of decision.

[sprjus4]

I don't think that's really an issue tbh. (1) despite the common perception that these lanes are for rich people, or the nickname "lexus lanes", the fact is that all income levels are sometimes willing to pay in order to avoid congestion and get to their destination on time,

Those that are more wealthy and have more discretionary income, and aren’t cash-strapped, may be more able to pay it everyday

That's the exact point that people think is true but is really not. Wealthy people don't use the lanes every day just because they can. Most wealthy people actually understand that there is a tradeoff between time and money for that kind of decision.

Who is more likely to use it everyday? Someone with an income of $200-300k or more, or some with an income of $40-50k?

[ran4sh]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

[Rothman]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

[froggie]

^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.

[Rothman]

^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.

Makes me wonder if that's just demonstrating inelasticity of demand and the forced higher burden on the poorer classes.

[sprjus4]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

… it is their decision, you’re correct. Someone with a higher income, who is more easily able to afford the higher toll cost, is more likely to use that lane, particularly on a regular basis, than someone who cannot afford it. Of course one off instances, such as the daycare example, or running late to an important event, will occur that will prompt the average middle / lower class person to pay it, but they won’t be a regular user.

The more income you have, the less the toll price becomes that noticeable to deter you away. It’s a small expense that may be negligible. When you have a lower income and every dollar counts, you cannot afford to pay that toll and it will make a difference.

[sprjus4]

^ As I recall, there was a study done on one of the I-15 toll lanes several years ago.  IIRC, those in the lower economic tier were just as likely to use the toll lanes as the more wealthy.

They'll use it if there is a specific benefit to such.  One cited example was the cost for the toll lane was less than the late fee for picking up a kid late at daycare.

Wish I could remember where I found that study.  Would be germaine to this discussion.

Makes me wonder if that's just demonstrating inelasticity of demand and the forced higher burden on the poorer classes.

That’s basically what it is. The burden is being placed significantly more on that poorer class person as opposed to the upper class commuter, even if the lower class person is choosing to pay the toll from time to time.

[1995hoo]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

There may be other reasons, aside from avoiding congestion, why someone elects to use the tolled express lane, however, such as if it provides access to an exit ramp with no counterpart in the general-purpose lanes and use of said express lane ramp makes for a significantly faster or easier trip (such as if it means bypassing a bunch of traffic lights).

[ran4sh]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

[Rothman]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.

[jmacswimmer]

The article regarding the announcement from WaPo mentions $500,000 being set aside to purchase the rights to the work already completed, which is (IMHO) another interesting wrinkle in all of this.

Will be interesting to see what happens with the federal grant...on one hand it's in the fed's backyard which might garner some additional pull, but on the other hand there's plenty of competing projects as others have noted. I wonder if MDTA could have any additional involvement as well, especially now that the P3 element of this project is dead. I think they had already been involved in some preliminary toll-range setting even prior to Transurban pulling out...since MDTA would now presumably be responsible for collecting the tolls, I wonder if a bond sale thru MDTA could be another funding source? Or if that would get sticky if a federal grant is also involved...I admittedly don't know about some of those funding quirks, but food for thought 

Link to the WaPo article I mentioned, which I believe is actually a rare non-paywalled WaPo article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/08/21/maryland-beltway-traffic-relief-project/

[bluecountry]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.

What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.

[Rothman]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.

What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.

There's no such thing as "can't" when it comes to legislation about taxation.

[Alps]

Again, you don't really have a point. If someone *wants* to use a toll express lane every day that's their decision. Rational people understand that it's not always worth paying just to avoid congestion.

To totally disregard the disparate economic burden of a toll on different economic classes is ridiculous.

And what's your solution? To not build toll lanes, thus forcing all road users to wait in traffic? That's hardly a valid solution.

So...toll lanes or nothing?  What a silly assertion.

What is silly about that?
I say it is more :
Toll lanes
OR
Higher gas tax
OR
Nothing

And we all know the gas tax can't possibly be raised or even kept even with inflation.

No, the gas tax can easily be pegged to inflation. New Jersey has done that.

[The Ghostbuster]

I believe the gas tax is obsolete. It's past time to find new funding sources to fund transportation improvements.

[1995hoo]

Virginia has the "Highway Use Fee" that's imposed on alternative-fuel vehicles like EVs and on more efficient gas-powered vehicles. There's some sort of formula for determining what the fee is for a particular type of car (see below). My wife had to pay it when she renewed the registration for her Acura TLX, but the amount she owed turned out to be a pittance ($12.11, and that's for a two-year registration renewal). A colleague who has a hybrid said he paid around $40.

There is an alternative option where you install some device that lets them track the miles you actually drive, although it doesn't exclude miles driven outside Virginia. That option caps the maximum amount paid at the amount you'd owe if you paid the standard fee.

The following is a partial excerpt from Va Code 46.2-772:

For an electric motor vehicle, the highway use fee shall be 85 percent of the amount of taxes paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on fuel used by a vehicle with a combined fuel economy of 23.7 miles per gallon for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth, as determined by the Commissioner. For all other fuel-efficient vehicles, the highway use fee shall be 85 percent of the difference between the tax paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on the fuel used by a vehicle with a combined fuel economy of 23.7 miles per gallon for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth in a year, as determined by the Commissioner, and the tax paid under subsection A of § 58.1-2217 on the fuel used by the vehicle being registered for the average number of miles traveled by a passenger vehicle in the Commonwealth in a year, as determined by the Commissioner.

For purposes of this chapter, the Commissioner shall use combined fuel economy as determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle. If the Commissioner is unable to obtain the manufacturer's fuel economy for a vehicle, then the Commissioner shall use the final estimate of average fuel economy, as determined by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, of (i) all trucks having the same model year as the vehicle being registered, if the vehicle has a gross weight between 6,000 pounds and 10,000 pounds, or (ii) all cars having the same model year as the vehicle. If data is not available for the model year of the vehicle being registered, then the Commissioner shall use available data for the model year that is closest to the model year of the vehicle being registered.

The Commissioner shall update the fees calculated under this section by July 1 of each year.

[davewiecking]

Received an email today about upcoming Open Houses (in November), and a link to this project’s new website. Not much there yet. www.americanlegionbridge270.com