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Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

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vdeane

Those hand-wringers seem to think that coming to a complete stop in a travel lane is a perfectly normal thing that happens all the time.  "Driver confusion" is not a valid reason to stop.  Mechanical failures/medical emergencies involve parking on the shoulder.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 10, 2014, 08:43:31 AM
My thoughts are already in the comments below that blog entry. I'm surprised none of the hand-wringers attacked me for them, especially for my "Darwin in Action" comment.

Perhaps the signs should read DO NOT STOP - DO NOT BACK UP - YOU WILL BE BILLED IN THE MAIL?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: vdeane on May 10, 2014, 05:31:44 PM
Those hand-wringers seem to think that coming to a complete stop in a travel lane is a perfectly normal thing that happens all the time.  "Driver confusion" is not a valid reason to stop.  Mechanical failures/medical emergencies involve parking on the shoulder.

I think you are correct.  But the person who was killed had probably been driving for many years, and may never have encountered an all-electronic toll road before (there are only two relatively short toll roads in the entire state of South Carolina). 
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Spotted this yesterday on northbound I-395. Had not seen it before. The change is the "HOV LANES" banner–it used to say "RESTRICTED LANES" (some of the other signs still do). It makes perfect sense when you consider the change coming this winter. The reversible carriageway north of this point will operate as it does today–HOV during rush hour, open to all traffic at other times except when they close it to reverse the direction. South of this point, the lanes will still be "restricted lanes" but will use a different sort of restriction (HOV-3 or pay toll). So the term "Restricted Lanes" will be too generic.

So a very sensible change. I just found it interesting to see.




Incidentally, I noted some of the exit signs over the HOV carriageway that previously bore "Restricted Lanes" banners (the signs for the exit to the Beltway that opened in November 2012) have been altered, presumably via greenout, to use the new green "EXPRESS EXIT" banner called for in the I-95 HO/T lane signage specifications. (No pictures of those. It was around 11:30 PM when we went through there last night and any video capture I were to post would be too grainy.) I'm sure when the lanes open there will be some people asking the local media outlets (Dr. Gridlock, Adam Tuss) why the signs on the Beltway use a white "E-ZPass EXPRESS EXIT" banner while the ones on I-95 use a green "EXPRESS EXIT" sign.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

#429
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 12, 2014, 12:00:35 PM
Incidentally, I noted some of the exit signs over the HOV carriageway that previously bore "Restricted Lanes" banners (the signs for the exit to the Beltway that opened in November 2012) have been altered, presumably via greenout, to use the new green "EXPRESS EXIT" banner called for in the I-95 HO/T lane signage specifications. (No pictures of those. It was around 11:30 PM when we went through there last night and any video capture I were to post would be too grainy.) I'm sure when the lanes open there will be some people asking the local media outlets (Dr. Gridlock, Adam Tuss) why the signs on the Beltway use a white "E-ZPass EXPRESS EXIT" banner while the ones on I-95 use a green "EXPRESS EXIT" sign.

I think "RESTRICTED LANES" goes back to the 1980's and maybe the 1970's.  EDIT: In the 1970's, there were signs that read "POOL CARS."

Your point about the signage between the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes and the I-95(and I-395) lanes being inconsistent is a good one. 

Perhaps because the former are always running in the same direction, while the latter are reversible? 

I don't think that is a very good answer, but it's the only one I could think of.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

WTOP Radio: 495 Express Lanes free for one week during off-peak hours

QuoteWASHINGTON -- To save a few minutes off on their commute through Virginia, many travelers pay to use the 495 Express Lanes. Now, commuters can get a free week of rides in the fast lanes.

QuoteBy registering on the 495 Express Lanes website users can spend the week of Sept. 22 riding toll free in the lanes.

QuoteThomas Williams of Rockville, Maryland says he is willing to try it for a week during his daily commute along the beltway in Virginia.

Quote"Anything that is a bargain, I will give it a try."

QuoteDuring the week of the promotion, the free hours go from 11 a.m. to 2 p.m., which means rush hours will still cost.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 14, 2014, 12:22:34 PM
....

Your point about the signage between the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes and the I-95(and I-395) lanes being inconsistent is a good one. 

Perhaps because the former are always running in the same direction, while the latter are reversible? 

I don't think that is a very good answer, but it's the only one I could think of.

I assumed the I-495 signs were designed and approved under old standards and that the I-95 signs were designed using a newer MUTCD. Don't know whether that's accurate, but I believe the new MUTCD calls for purple banners on signs leading to the lanes and the old one didn't (among other things).

I think the system used in Toronto, with the signs over the different carriageways being different colors, is a good system. Indeed I-395 used to have that back in the 1970s/early 1980s (using black backgrounds for the reversible lanes).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

mtantillo

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 14, 2014, 01:40:09 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 14, 2014, 12:22:34 PM
....

Your point about the signage between the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes and the I-95(and I-395) lanes being inconsistent is a good one. 

Perhaps because the former are always running in the same direction, while the latter are reversible? 

I don't think that is a very good answer, but it's the only one I could think of.

I assumed the I-495 signs were designed and approved under old standards and that the I-95 signs were designed using a newer MUTCD. Don't know whether that's accurate, but I believe the new MUTCD calls for purple banners on signs leading to the lanes and the old one didn't (among other things).

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Virginia adopted the 2009 MUTCD on Dec. 7, 2011. The I-95 HOT lane project had not yet started.

1995hoo

Transurban just tweeted that they expect the I-95 HO/T lanes will open in December. Previously they'd cited early 2015 as the target date. The idea of opening them right before Christmas seems like potentially a decent idea insofar as traffic volumes are almost always considerably lower for the final two weeks of the year. Recall all the wrecks on the Beltway during the first few days of HO/T operations there in November 2012.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mtantillo on September 21, 2014, 09:27:51 PM
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Virginia adopted the 2009 MUTCD on Dec. 7, 2011. The I-95 HOT lane project had not yet started.

Almost sounds like the gap in time between the time that the travel demand forecasts and the time that the final agreement between VDOT and Transurban (and presumably FHWA) was signed.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 09, 2014, 10:54:54 AM
Transurban just tweeted that they expect the I-95 HO/T lanes will open in December. Previously they'd cited early 2015 as the target date. The idea of opening them right before Christmas seems like potentially a decent idea insofar as traffic volumes are almost always considerably lower for the final two weeks of the year. Recall all the wrecks on the Beltway during the first few days of HO/T operations there in November 2012.

Good time to open.  Hopefully, since most of the entrances and exits have not changed, it should not have some of the safety problems that the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes experienced.  Especially at the entrance on the Inner Loop near the Robinson Terminal buildings.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 09, 2014, 09:40:37 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 09, 2014, 10:54:54 AM
Transurban just tweeted that they expect the I-95 HO/T lanes will open in December. Previously they'd cited early 2015 as the target date. The idea of opening them right before Christmas seems like potentially a decent idea insofar as traffic volumes are almost always considerably lower for the final two weeks of the year. Recall all the wrecks on the Beltway during the first few days of HO/T operations there in November 2012.

Good time to open.  Hopefully, since most of the entrances and exits have not changed, it should not have some of the safety problems that the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes experienced.  Especially at the entrance on the Inner Loop near the Robinson Terminal buildings.

Agreed. I think there may be some wrecks due to people who are on autopilot following the routes they've used for years and then at the last second they say, "Oh, crap, I forgot there's a toll here now," and then they swerve wildly without looking. I take that almost as a given (especially, say, someone coming south after 6:00 PM in the reversible carriageway approaching Turkeycock). But I think there will be a lot less of it than there was on the Beltway, both because many of the exits and entrances are the same and because of the very different design.

I do think there will be rampant confusion and there will be howls of outrage a few days later (when invoices go out) from people who will claim they were unaware of the new configuration and didn't know an E-ZPass was required. I won't feel much sympathy for the vast majority of those people because anyone who drives on that road more than once or twice a year should certainly realize something major is underway that merits some level of attention, and the plethora of signs bearing the E-ZPass logo (most of which, but not all, are currently covered–the wind has pulled back some of the covers from the signs on the Inner Loop) ought to be a tip-off as well. Someone who doesn't live around here and has used that road once or twice a year for, say, Thanksgiving or Christmas trips to visit the relatives, I might have a little more sympathy because I recognize there are a lot of signs to be read and understood.

I expect rampant confusion over the "segment-based" tolling system. Unfortunately, it's not easy to explain it in a quick manner that makes it clear how the segments work while being a short enough explanation to fit within the limited attention spans so many people have. I was thinking about offering to write an article for our HOA's newsletter because so many people in our area use the southbound HOV to the Franconia—Springfield Parkway, but the space is too limited.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 10, 2014, 09:37:47 AM
I expect rampant confusion over the "segment-based" tolling system. Unfortunately, it's not easy to explain it in a quick manner that makes it clear how the segments work while being a short enough explanation to fit within the limited attention spans so many people have. I was thinking about offering to write an article for our HOA's newsletter because so many people in our area use the southbound HOV to the Franconia—Springfield Parkway, but the space is too limited.

I think that is ultimately going to hurt patronage, especially when both other toll roads in the region tell drivers what the price is to get to the other end of the tolled lanes.

Telling drivers what the price is to an intermediate point in the corridor may cause more than a few drivers to assume it is not worth it.

That and the lack of the toll lanes going all the way to the Potomac River along I-395 (which is, of course, not Transurban's fault).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

About 20 minutes ago I was coming down the I-395 HOV lanes from DC and noticed something new at Turkeycock: At the point where the left-side exit into the reversible lanes splits off, there's a new little green sign saying "ENTRANCE," with something covered up above it that's probably a purple "E-ZPass Express" banner," and then the interesting part is that underneath the word "Entrance" there is a downward-pointing arrow pointing to the left. I've never been to California, but the way the arrow was pointing reminded me of photos I've seen of California's odd "FREEWAY ENTRANCE" signs.

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other time I've seen a ground-mounted sign for a ramp in Virginia using a downward-pointing arrow instead of the usual upward-pointing arrow you see on an exit sign.

No pictures. I was driving the convertible and its cigarette lighter doesn't work, so I was running the dashcam on its own battery and the battery died before I reached that point.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

Telling drivers an intermediate price point makes sense in some regards.  Based on 2013 volumes, roughly 1/3 of the volume at Newington exits at Springfield...presumably to access the Beltway.  That's a good chunk of HOV lane users exiting at a midpoint.

1995hoo

Quote from: froggie on October 27, 2014, 04:44:53 PM
Telling drivers an intermediate price point makes sense in some regards.  Based on 2013 volumes, roughly 1/3 of the volume at Newington exits at Springfield...presumably to access the Beltway.  That's a good chunk of HOV lane users exiting at a midpoint.

At the risk of putting words in his mouth (keyboard?), I don't think that's exactly what cpzilliacus meant. We were referring to how the bottom line on the toll rate signs on the I-95/I-395 HO/T lanes will not display the toll to the far end of the lanes the way it does on the Beltway–instead, the bottom line will be an "intermediate point" when you consider it in relation to the entirety of the lanes. In other words, if you view the lanes in "segments" the way Transurban does, with each "segment" ending at a spot where you can exit back into the general-purpose lanes, then you follow how the bottom line on the sign is the far end of your current "segment."

For example, I presume for me coming home from DC the first sign would presumably list the rates to the Beltway, Route 644, and then the end of the "segment" at the flyover back to the general-purpose lanes just south of Route 644. Then as I approach that flyover I'd see a second list of toll rates listing the Franconia—Springfield Parkway (my exit); either Route 1 at Woodbridge, Route 123 at Occoquan, or the Prince William Parkway; and then the end of the "segment" at the flyover near Potomac Mills Mall. Etc.

So the signs will show "intermediate price points" with respect to each "segment," as you suggest, and I agree with you they absolutely should show that, at least on the longer segments. (Maybe showing the toll to the Beltway AND Route 644 might be overkill? What might it differ by, 10¢?) Otherwise it's hard to make an educated decision whether to use the lanes. But the point cpzilliacus is making is that if you're driving a long distance, you may well pass through several "segments" and so you will have more "decision points" on whether you want to pay the toll for the next segment or instead exit back to the "free" lanes. It's unclear whether most drivers will understand that aspect of the signage. I suspect many won't, at least not at first.

The benefit of this system in terms of the lanes' operation is that it allows Transurban to adjust the rates for the different segments independently from each other to manage the amount of traffic. If there's a wreck in the morning near, say, the Lorton Road overpass, they could jack the rate up between the Prince William Parkway and Newington to discourage people from entering or staying on the HO/T lanes through there (there is to be a new slip ramp back OUT of the HO/T lanes as you pass under the Prince William Parkway), then have a lower rate as you reach the entrance located just south of Newington. I'm going to be interested in seeing how it all works in practice, although I don't drive south on I-95 all that often these days. For our trips to Florida I've been using Route 29 just for a change of pace from I-95, but if the lanes open on schedule in early December I may use them on our way south a few days prior to Christmas just to see how it's working.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

NJRoadfan

I wonder what the wording will be like for the line showing the toll at the end of the segment. Given the limited space and the need for quick readability it'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

Something like "X-OVER to Exits 123 and north" might be too long.

Also, hopefully they will identify the segments by.......something, perhaps a letter and/or a color coded signs?

1995hoo

#442
That's a great question. I haven't seen that addressed in any of their publicity materials.


Edited to add: They've updated their website. It looks like they'll say, for example, "95-N/644," which I assume would denote the flyover just north of Newington. See tab 3 at the following link: http://95expresslanes.com/signage
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 27, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 27, 2014, 04:44:53 PM
Telling drivers an intermediate price point makes sense in some regards.  Based on 2013 volumes, roughly 1/3 of the volume at Newington exits at Springfield...presumably to access the Beltway.  That's a good chunk of HOV lane users exiting at a midpoint.

At the risk of putting words in his mouth (keyboard?), I don't think that's exactly what cpzilliacus meant. We were referring to how the bottom line on the toll rate signs on the I-95/I-395 HO/T lanes will not display the toll to the far end of the lanes the way it does on the Beltway–instead, the bottom line will be an "intermediate point" when you consider it in relation to the entirety of the lanes. In other words, if you view the lanes in "segments" the way Transurban does, with each "segment" ending at a spot where you can exit back into the general-purpose lanes, then you follow how the bottom line on the sign is the far end of your current "segment."

Thank you. That was exactly what I meant.

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 27, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
For example, I presume for me coming home from DC the first sign would presumably list the rates to the Beltway, Route 644, and then the end of the "segment" at the flyover back to the general-purpose lanes just south of Route 644. Then as I approach that flyover I'd see a second list of toll rates listing the Franconia—Springfield Parkway (my exit); either Route 1 at Woodbridge, Route 123 at Occoquan, or the Prince William Parkway; and then the end of the "segment" at the flyover near Potomac Mills Mall. Etc.

Yes.  I really dislike that scheme, and I think it may discourage use by paying (non-HOV) customers.

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 27, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
So the signs will show "intermediate price points" with respect to each "segment," as you suggest, and I agree with you they absolutely should show that, at least on the longer segments. (Maybe showing the toll to the Beltway AND Route 644 might be overkill? What might it differ by, 10¢?) Otherwise it's hard to make an educated decision whether to use the lanes. But the point cpzilliacus is making is that if you're driving a long distance, you may well pass through several "segments" and so you will have more "decision points" on whether you want to pay the toll for the next segment or instead exit back to the "free" lanes. It's unclear whether most drivers will understand that aspect of the signage. I suspect many won't, at least not at first.

Agreed.  It bothers me that Transurban did not adopt a pricing and sign scheme similar to what they used on the Capital Beltway -  or, for that matter, the way that MdTA signs at the entrances to Md. 200.

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 27, 2014, 05:04:45 PM
The benefit of this system in terms of the lanes' operation is that it allows Transurban to adjust the rates for the different segments independently from each other to manage the amount of traffic. If there's a wreck in the morning near, say, the Lorton Road overpass, they could jack the rate up between the Prince William Parkway and Newington to discourage people from entering or staying on the HO/T lanes through there (there is to be a new slip ramp back OUT of the HO/T lanes as you pass under the Prince William Parkway), then have a lower rate as you reach the entrance located just south of Newington. I'm going to be interested in seeing how it all works in practice, although I don't drive south on I-95 all that often these days. For our trips to Florida I've been using Route 29 just for a change of pace from I-95, but if the lanes open on schedule in early December I may use them on our way south a few days prior to Christmas just to see how it's working.

I realize that Transurban has a legal right to maximize its toll revenues, and I have no dispute with that.  But this scheme appears (IMO) to one that may discourage patronage.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

mrsman

IMO, it seems odd that one could not lock in a toll rate from the moment of entry into the tollway.  Does anybody know of any other tollway with variable pricing that does it this way?

Mapmikey

You do lock in the cost of the segment at the time you enter it.

I think congestion pricing on toll roads longer than a few miles has drawbacks as indicated above.  Imagine the Penna Tpk doing congestion pricing.  You wouldn't set a rate for the whole length based on congestion because the congestion will likely be very different by the time you reach the other end.  The 95/395 project is of course much shorter but still long enough that congestion variation is likely, especially given that there are many entrances and exits that will be available once it all opens up.  The point about people leaving the 95 lanes when they reach the beltway is valid...this can create quite a different congestion pattern on either side of the beltway.

I would even argue the 495 express lanes can suffer from this as well.  Around Christmas when everyone is going to Tysons Corner, will the full length toll be high because it is congested around the Tyson's exits at the north end of the express lanes?

Mapmikey

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mrsman on October 28, 2014, 11:41:18 PM
IMO, it seems odd that one could not lock in a toll rate from the moment of entry into the tollway.  Does anybody know of any other tollway with variable pricing that does it this way?

Certainly Md. 200 and the I-495 HOV/Toll lanes do not, and both announce to drivers what the toll is to reach the other end of the toll road or toll lanes.

I understand that Transurban is doing it to maximize revenues across the entire facility on I-95/I-395, and they are taking advantage of exit points where drivers that do not wish to pay the higher toll will be able to return to the "free" parallel lanes. 

But I still think it is a very bad idea and will alienate and anger patrons.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Drove the I-495 HOV/toll lanes southbound yesterday in the P.M. peak commute periods from the entrance south of Va. 193 to I-66.  Cost $3.10. 

The charge all the way to the other end between Va. 620 and I-95 was $7.60.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

#448
The Post's Dr. Gridlock reports the I-95 HO/T signs will start to be uncovered this weekend, the idea being (a) to give people a few weeks to see them before the lanes begin operations and (b) to allow adequate time to uncover the 300+ signs that have been posted as part of the project.

Edited to add: I was just over in Springfield and it appears they've already started uncovering some of them. One of the toll rate signs had the top purple portion uncovered with the VMS portion reading something like "Express Lanes Open This December."
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

GamePancakes

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7440526,-77.1876591,3a,75y,212.74h,112.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sywzCPr6AOeVEym8142oStg!2e0

Could this mean 95-HOT is including variable speed limits? If it is, it would be interesting if they could go up to 70mph at times.



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