Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

Started by mtantillo, August 14, 2012, 11:02:35 PM

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1995hoo

Quote from: GamePancakes on October 30, 2014, 07:58:09 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7440526,-77.1876591,3a,75y,212.74h,112.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sywzCPr6AOeVEym8142oStg!2e0

Could this mean 95-HOT is including variable speed limits? If it is, it would be interesting if they could go up to 70mph at times.

They will indeed have variable limits, but so far they've said they won't exceed 65.

The speed limit study for the Beltway lanes showed 70 mph would have been appropriate, but VDOT refused to allow it.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.


cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 30, 2014, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: GamePancakes on October 30, 2014, 07:58:09 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7440526,-77.1876591,3a,75y,212.74h,112.48t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sywzCPr6AOeVEym8142oStg!2e0

Could this mean 95-HOT is including variable speed limits? If it is, it would be interesting if they could go up to 70mph at times.

They will indeed have variable limits, but so far they've said they won't exceed 65.

The speed limit study for the Beltway lanes showed 70 mph would have been appropriate, but VDOT refused to allow it.

I do not recall the speed limits in Virginia's part of the Capital Beltway ever being above 60 MPH pre-NMSL.  Maryland did allow 70 MPH on parts of the Beltway in Prince George's County pre-NMSL.

But I suspect that the 85th percentile speeds in the Beltway in Fairfax County are probably better than 65 MPH, as they are on most of it in Montgomery and Prince George's Counties.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

froggie

QuoteBut I suspect that the 85th percentile speeds in the Beltway in Fairfax County are probably better than 65 MPH, as they are on most of it in Montgomery and Prince George's Counties.

In my experience, they're about mid-60s on both sides of the Potomac...

1995hoo

According to this article (see link below), the 85th percentile speed in the HO/T lanes was 70 mph when they did the traffic study, but it doesn't give a figure for the general-purpose lanes. Of course, it's to be expected the HO/T lanes would have a higher average speed.

http://www.wtop.com/41/3351447/Beltway-Express-Lanes-speed-limit-raised-to-65-mph

When I'm in the general-purpose lanes I try to keep it to 65. I don't pass many people.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 31, 2014, 07:26:39 AM
According to this article (see link below), the 85th percentile speed in the HO/T lanes was 70 mph when they did the traffic study, but it doesn't give a figure for the general-purpose lanes. Of course, it's to be expected the HO/T lanes would have a higher average speed.

http://www.wtop.com/41/3351447/Beltway-Express-Lanes-speed-limit-raised-to-65-mph

When I'm in the general-purpose lanes I try to keep it to 65. I don't pass many people.

When I drove from the north end south to I-66 the other day, I kept it between 55 and 60 in the middle of the P.M. peak period (which was scorching fast compared to the "free" lanes, especially between Va. 7 and I-66).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

mtantillo

Quote from: froggie on October 27, 2014, 04:44:53 PM
Telling drivers an intermediate price point makes sense in some regards.  Based on 2013 volumes, roughly 1/3 of the volume at Newington exits at Springfield...presumably to access the Beltway.  That's a good chunk of HOV lane users exiting at a midpoint.

Only a third? On weekends, I'd say it is more like 90%.

Stephane Dumas

Google Streetview had put some streetview look of I-495 HOT lanes, here one from September 2014. http://goo.gl/maps/geRU4

cpzilliacus

WTOP Radio: Survey: Most commuters not ready for the 95 Express Lanes opening in December

QuoteA new survey from the Virginia Department of Transportation and Transurban finds that many drivers are still not ready for the 95 Express Lanes to open next month.

QuoteThe 29 miles of toll lanes will run from Garrisonville Road to north of Edsall Road in Alexandria. The specific opening date is expected to be announced soon.

QuoteAccording to the survey, only 32 percent of carpoolers who travel along the Interstate 95 portion of the express lanes have an E-ZPass Flex, which they'll need to use the lanes for free.

QuoteCarpoolers and sluggers must purchase an E-ZPass Flex and switch it into HOV mode to receive the free trip. Drivers can purchase an E-ZPass Flex at Wegmans, Giant, AAA Mid-Atlantic or E-ZPass service centers. You can also get one online.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 21, 2014, 01:17:15 PM
WTOP Radio: Survey: Most commuters not ready for the 95 Express Lanes opening in December

QuoteA new survey from the Virginia Department of Transportation and Transurban finds that many drivers are still not ready for the 95 Express Lanes to open next month.

QuoteThe 29 miles of toll lanes will run from Garrisonville Road to north of Edsall Road in Alexandria. The specific opening date is expected to be announced soon.

QuoteAccording to the survey, only 32 percent of carpoolers who travel along the Interstate 95 portion of the express lanes have an E-ZPass Flex, which they'll need to use the lanes for free.

QuoteCarpoolers and sluggers must purchase an E-ZPass Flex and switch it into HOV mode to receive the free trip. Drivers can purchase an E-ZPass Flex at Wegmans, Giant, AAA Mid-Atlantic or E-ZPass service centers. You can also get one online.


Not terribly unusual. Most people will hold off until the week before or week after.  And they'll complain no one told them about the switch as well.

mtantillo

Looks like today they were out testing the traffic control system. The green arrows and red X signs as well as the speed limit signs were on. Speed limit is 65 btw.

I'm worried about what happens on opening day. But 32% with E-ZPass, that's good, right? Carpool drivers are the only ones who need it, not riders, so really only 33% of carpoolers need one. In fact if riders have one with them, they risk getting double charged.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: mtantillo on November 23, 2014, 06:24:39 PM
Looks like today they were out testing the traffic control system. The green arrows and red X signs as well as the speed limit signs were on. Speed limit is 65 btw.

I'm worried about what happens on opening day. But 32% with E-ZPass, that's good, right? Carpool drivers are the only ones who need it, not riders, so really only 33% of carpoolers need one. In fact if riders have one with them, they risk getting double charged.

I still think there will be a fair number of HOV-3 drivers that will be very angry when the Transurban bills and violation notices start to show up in their mailboxes, probably in January, about the time that the Virginia General Assembly convenes in Richmond.

Though I am sure that many people will complain to their county and federal elected officials, even though they are relatively blameless (to the extent there is blame to be had) in this.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

jeffandnicole

#461
Along several of the NJ Turnpike exits there are signs stating "EZ Pass Cars Only May Use Shoulder 4pm - 7pm". Most of them are due to the beginnings of EZ Pass, when relatively few had EZ Pass and the cash lanes were congested with traffic along the entire exit ramp. As people finally got the tags, the cash lane jams dwindled. This took a few months to finally occur. Except for interchange 3, rarely does EZ Pass traffic have to use the shoulder.

As for the Virginia HOT lanes, expect a relatively similar ramp-up period. It will take some time...and some violation notices...for people to finally get the message.

(Edited to add similar in my final paragraph)

1995hoo

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 23, 2014, 08:15:54 PM
Along several of the NJ Turnpike exits there are signs stating "EZ Pass Cars Only May Use Shoulder 4pm - 7pm". Most of them are due to the beginnings of EZ Pass, when relatively few had EZ Pass and the cash lanes were congested with traffic along the entire exit ramp. As people finally got the tags, the cash lane jams dwindled. This took a few months to finally occur. Except for interchange 3, rarely does EZ Pass traffic have to use the shoulder.

As for the Virginia HOT lanes, expect a relatively ramp-up period. It will take some time...and some violation notices...for people to finally get the message.

The ones on the Beltway have been open since November 2012. Some people still claim they're being screwed. Almost all of them aren't using their E-ZPasses properly.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Mapmikey

One cannot claim to be a user of the 95 HOV lanes now and not be aware that an EZ pass is required to use the lanes in all situations when it converts to HOT lanes in December.  There are tons of electronic signs, banners, and standalone signs alerting users to this fact.  These have been up several weeks now.  I do agree with those who believe the structure of the tolling on these lanes will come as a surprise.

Oddly, the lane control and electronic speed limit signs mentioned by mtantillo above are only on the section that will be 3 lanes.  South of Dale City there are no lane control signs and the speed limit 65 sign is a standard sign.

They have also installed full-size interstate mile markers every two-tenths (no route shield on them).

I also think there will be a lot of wrecks NB at the beginning of the HOT lanes in Garrisonville.  Not sure why they didn't have a flyover entrance ramp for this...there is a lot of traffic getting onto 95 at Exit 143 SR 610 and the weaving will be steady trying to get left to reach the on ramp.  Even today there are accordion wrecks approaching the current HOV beginning in Triangle quite regularly and the number of people getting on 95 NB at Exit 150 is tiny compared to Exit 143.

I'm also not a fan of the SB ending of the new lanes.  Slow merge-weave right at the exit for SR 610 that will never be free-flowing in afternoon rush.  Why not extend the through traffic to 95 south HOV lane past SR 610?

[/rant]

Mapmikey

1995hoo

I believe–this is an educated guess–the reason for the lane control signals and the variable speed limits being solely on the three-lane portion is that said portion lacks full shoulders, especially on the side adjacent to the southbound carriageway because there's essentially no shoulder at all on that side. On the two-lane portion (south of the Prince William Parkway, for those who haven't used the reversible lanes recently) there is a full shoulder on each side. I believe the intention is to use the lane control signals and variable speed limits to funnel traffic in the three-lane portion to whichever lanes are not blocked when there's an incident like an accident or a breakdown.

The Post's Dr. Gridlock thinks the HO/T conversion will occur the weekend of December 13—14. We'll see. I hope it's open on December 20 so I can use it for the beginning of our Christmas trip south.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

#465
Quote from: Mapmikey on November 24, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
One cannot claim to be a user of the 95 HOV lanes now and not be aware that an EZ pass is required to use the lanes in all situations when it converts to HOT lanes in December.  There are tons of electronic signs, banners, and standalone signs alerting users to this fact.  These have been up several weeks now.  I do agree with those who believe the structure of the tolling on these lanes will come as a surprise.

I respectfully disagree. People driving the corridor have other things on their mind (like getting to and from work), other than the work that's been going on in this corridor, are likely not paying that much attention (I categorically exclude everyone that reads AAROADS from that category).

Quote from: Mapmikey on November 24, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
Oddly, the lane control and electronic speed limit signs mentioned by mtantillo above are only on the section that will be 3 lanes.  South of Dale City there are no lane control signs and the speed limit 65 sign is a standard sign.

I have noticed that too.  Maybe because the shoulders south of Dale City are reasonably wide, while those north of Dale City (as far as the north end of the HOV/Toll facility) at Turkeycock Run  have been narrowed to allow for three travel lanes.

Quote from: Mapmikey on November 24, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
They have also installed full-size interstate mile markers every two-tenths (no route shield on them).

An improvement over what was there before (no mile markers in the HOV lane roadway at all).

Quote from: Mapmikey on November 24, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
I also think there will be a lot of wrecks NB at the beginning of the HOT lanes in Garrisonville.  Not sure why they didn't have a flyover entrance ramp for this...there is a lot of traffic getting onto 95 at Exit 143 SR 610 and the weaving will be steady trying to get left to reach the on ramp.  Even today there are accordion wrecks approaching the current HOV beginning in Triangle quite regularly and the number of people getting on 95 NB at Exit 150 is tiny compared to Exit 143.

Good question. 

Though my bigger concern is at the other end of the HOV/Toll lanes and the beginning of the HOV lanes at Turkeycock Run.  I see a potential for big problems in the A.M. and P.M. commute periods there.

Quote from: Mapmikey on November 24, 2014, 09:32:13 AM
I'm also not a fan of the SB ending of the new lanes.  Slow merge-weave right at the exit for SR 610 that will never be free-flowing in afternoon rush.  Why not extend the through traffic to 95 south HOV lane past SR 610?

[/rant]

Mapmikey

Why not run these lanes all the way south to U.S. 17 (Warrenton Road), or, even better, to Massaponax?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 24, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
I believe–this is an educated guess–the reason for the lane control signals and the variable speed limits being solely on the three-lane portion is that said portion lacks full shoulders, especially on the side adjacent to the southbound carriageway because there's essentially no shoulder at all on that side. On the two-lane portion (south of the Prince William Parkway, for those who haven't used the reversible lanes recently) there is a full shoulder on each side. I believe the intention is to use the lane control signals and variable speed limits to funnel traffic in the three-lane portion to whichever lanes are not blocked when there's an incident like an accident or a breakdown.

Agreed.

Quote from: 1995hoo on November 24, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
The Post's Dr. Gridlock thinks the HO/T conversion will occur the weekend of December 13—14. We'll see. I hope it's open on December 20 so I can use it for the beginning of our Christmas trip south.

I may check them out on my own during the winter holiday break, but otherwise, I am staying away from them until everyone is reasonably used to using those lanes in the reconfigured state.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

Quote from: cpzilliacus on November 24, 2014, 04:09:11 PM
I may check them out on my own during the winter holiday break, but otherwise, I am staying away from them until everyone is reasonably used to using those lanes in the reconfigured state.

On an ordinary weekday I'd probably do the same, but since we're shooting to hit the road at 7:00 on a Saturday morning, I'm not going to worry (I figure we'll use the big loop ramp from the Beltway rather than entering from the Franconia—Springfield Parkway).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

froggie

QuoteI respectfully disagree. People driving the corridor have other things on their mind (like getting to and from work), other than the work that's been going on in this corridor, are likely not paying that much attention

If they are not paying attention, that's not VDOT's fault, or the contractor's fault.  If they're driving, they should be paying attention to the road and what's on the road.  That's the basics of driving.

1995hoo

#469
Quote from: froggie on November 25, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
QuoteI respectfully disagree. People driving the corridor have other things on their mind (like getting to and from work), other than the work that's been going on in this corridor, are likely not paying that much attention

If they are not paying attention, that's not VDOT's fault, or the contractor's fault.  If they're driving, they should be paying attention to the road and what's on the road.  That's the basics of driving.

I think froggie is correct. There are some very large ads in place in the reversible carriageway, both full-color banners attached to overpasses and freestanding signs in the nature of (though not quite the same as) billboards, all of which have messages similar to "Everyone needs an E-ZPass" or "Carpoolers need an E-ZPass Flex" or the like. Even if you've been driving that road for many years, I kind of feel that the combination of two years of construction combined with a bunch of new road signs combined with a series of banners about E-ZPass being required should cause even someone totally unaware of the impending HO/T conversion to say, "Hey, what's this about E-ZPass?" and to do a little investigation.

But, of course, we all know it's virtually impossible to educate people who are not willing to educate themselves. I think some people engage in what the legal system calls "willful blindless"–they actively avoid information they know they won't like so they can claim "I didn't know." The legal system is not sympathetic to those people and I don't think any of us would be either. There are others who are, frankly, just stupid. I continue to be surprised at how clueless some people can be, such as the lady who wrote to Dr. Gridlock in 2012, shortly before the Beltway lanes opened, asking why she would need an E-ZPass on I-66. Look, I can understand not knowing the nuances of how the HO/T lanes will work, but being completely ignorant of the project? I don't get that, at least not if you live in Northern Virginia. The Beltway project was probably the central fact (and inconvenience!) of Northern Virginia transportation for the four or five years before it opened. (The Silver Line would have been second in my mind; I put it second because its construction didn't have the same immediate day-to-day effect on thousands of commuters and travellers that the Beltway construction did.)

I get that the I-95 project is a bit of a different animal because it's converting existing lanes that have continued to operate, pretty much as normal during commuting hours, during the reconstruction process. Also, it seems like I-95 and I-395 have been under construction in Northern Virginia pretty much forever (1970s reconstruction; late 1980s/early 1990s southern extension of HOV system; 1999—2007 Springfield Interchange reconstruction; subsequent addition of fourth lane down to Occoquan; current HO/T lane project; current widening from Landmark to Seminary Road; current project to add HOV ramp on south side of Seminary interchange), and I'm sure to some degree people who have commuted through the never-ending construction must reach a point where they roll their eyes and just figure it's yet another project. I get that. But at the same time, even if you get on autopilot I have to think you'd notice the wholesale replacement of pretty much all the signs on the reversible carriageway and the appearance of "E-ZPass Express" signage that cannot, due to its location, be referring to the existing lanes on the Beltway.




BTW, I've probably said this before, but I think the thing about which the carpoolers/slug drivers have a legitimate beef is the requirement that in order to obtain an E-ZPass Flex you have to put up $35 per transponder (that is, to borrow the SunPass terminology, fund the account with $35 of prepaid tolls). The carpoolers were promised a free ride on the HO/T lanes and the repeal of the E-ZPass monthly fee means they won't have to pay a dollar a month, but they still have to give the Commonwealth a $35 interest-free loan in the form of funding the E-ZPass account. I can certainly understand why that will rankle a lot of carpoolers who don't already have E-ZPass transponders. On the other hand, I'm not sure how the Commonwealth could police it. If they waive the requirement that you fund the account, anyone could SAY "I'm only going to use it for carpooling," get a zero-balance transponder, and then run tollbooths (I think this would be a very dumb thing to do, of course). Maybe the solution is to amend the E-ZPass rules so that VDOT must analyze Flex users' accounts every three or six months and, if indeed a given user is using the device solely for carpooling, they could lower that user's balance to a lesser amount by crediting most of the initial payment back to the card used to fund the account?
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

cpzilliacus

Quote from: froggie on November 25, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
QuoteI respectfully disagree. People driving the corridor have other things on their mind (like getting to and from work), other than the work that's been going on in this corridor, are likely not paying that much attention

If they are not paying attention, that's not VDOT's fault, or the contractor's fault.  If they're driving, they should be paying attention to the road and what's on the road.  That's the basics of driving.

Adam, I do not dispute your opinion, which I very much agree with. 

But it contrasts with the unpleasant reality, which is that many drivers do not think about much what goes on around them (perhaps made worse by many drivers during the peak commute periods who are very focused on getting to and from work, and nothing else).
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

1995hoo

My wife sent me this link this morning–WTOP has a video tour (going northbound) of the new nine-mile portion of reversible lanes south of the current HOV lanes' terminus. Nothing anyone here wasn't already aware of, and most of us knew what the lanes would look like, but here's the link anyway for anyone who's interested.

I e-mailed my wife back and said what Transurban ought to do is to post a series of videos filmed on the road on their website showing the entry/exit points and showing how the toll rate signs work, especially the signs as you hit a new "segment." Example, "If you're on the Fairfax County Parkway and you want to go south on the Express Lanes, this is the route you follow." "If you're on the Express Lanes, you will see a sign like this one. That means you have to decide whether you want to pay that toll or whether you want to exit back out to the mainline." Etc. While they have some maps on their website, I think we've seen from when the Beltway project opened that there's something valuable to the idea of having video or photos showing what people will actually see when they're on the road, rather than abstract diagrams.

http://www.wtop.com/654/3755883/Preview-of-the-95-Express-Lanes
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Zeffy

Thanks for that link. The video was a bit too boring for my tastes, but the lanes themselves look great.

Also, is it standard to use those boom (I think those are what those gates are called) gates at the entry ways to the lanes? HOT lanes are a rather foreign concept to me, being from New Jersey and all.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

1995hoo

Quote from: Zeffy on December 04, 2014, 10:16:42 AM
Thanks for that link. The video was a bit too boring for my tastes, but the lanes themselves look great.

Also, is it standard to use those boom (I think those are what those gates are called) gates at the entry ways to the lanes? HOT lanes are a rather foreign concept to me, being from New Jersey and all.

It's standard on that road because the lanes are reversible, not because they're HOV or HO/T. Notice, BTW, that both shoulders are delineated with white lines (no yellow). That's because either lane can be to the driver's left or the driver's right depending on which way they're operating.

It's a little more complicated than this, but essentially, during the morning they run towards DC, then around lunchtime they close them for awhile before reopening them with them running away from DC. Repeat late at night. The weekend schedule is different.

For obvious reasons, though, it wouldn't do to have northbound traffic entering the lanes when they're operating southbound. If you had two vehicles going 75 mph approaching head-on, they'd be closing on each other at an effective 150 mph. Hence why they have the gates in place. When they're reversing the direction, let's say at midday, VDOT requires that all the northbound gates be closed before the southbound gates are opened. They literally have a guy in a truck drive the lanes starting at the southern end. I don't know if he actually does something to close the gates, but he is required to confirm that each set of gates has closed. (Mike has pointed out that logic would suggest they could open southbound access points as the truck goes by–that is, the truck driver drives the lanes, confirms the northbound gates are closed and that no traffic remains on the lanes, so he opens the southbound gates as he reaches them. I don't know why they don't do it that way, but I assume it's absolute paranoia about the possibility of head-on wrecks.)
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

Zeffy

Ah, I completely forgot that these are reversible lanes, yet another foreign concept to me. Now that makes much more sense. (-1 for me not reading your original post 1995hoo  :banghead: )
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders



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