New Jersey Turnpike

[roadman65]

Most likely the excuse was there was no room to mount a sign being the Passaic River Bridges are there.

Anyway, I am sure  locals never complained about it as most New Jersians use the exit number for a reference.  It was really something as previously Exit 16W never used Newark as a control city on the eastern leg.  It was Kearny and The Oranges always, so the state's largest city never got a mention in the days of old except on the tickets (if anyone ever read them that is).

[bzakharin]

Most likely the excuse was there was no room to mount a sign being the Passaic River Bridges are there.

Anyway, I am sure  locals never complained about it as most New Jersians use the exit number for a reference.  It was really something as previously Exit 16W never used Newark as a control city on the eastern leg.  It was Kearny and The Oranges always, so the state's largest city never got a mention in the days of old except on the tickets (if anyone ever read them that is_.

I assume you mean 15W. Given its suffix, I assume it wasn't always accessible from the Eastern Spur (even Southbound). If so, and given how Exit 15E is signed for Newark, I wonder if 15W was not signed for Newark to avoid duplication. And if you had to make a choice, 15E is actually located in Newark and 15W is not, so I can see their reasoning. Exit 14, while also in Newark, and could have been signed as such, opts for the more specific "Newark Airport". They could go the "Newark next three exits" route instead, but I don't recall the Turnpike ever doing that anywhere else.

[roadman65]

Typo on that 16W lol!  Yes 15E is in Newark while 15W is in Kearney and of course Raymond Blvd. goes directly to Downtown while I-280 does not.  Also to remember I-280 was completed in 1980 and it might of been signed for Kearney then cause I-280 was not yet hooked up.  Then again The Oranges was always signed even back then which is beyond Newark.

The NJ Turnpike don't like the next x exits signing, but for Newark Airport they do sign if for use Exit 14 or 13A though.    The next x exits are good for both Camden and Philadelphia at Exit 4 SB and 3 NB as well as Trenton should be signed for 2 exits starting at 7A SB and 7 NB too.

Oh well.

[Mergingtraffic]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke:









This sign is gone...there was some debate about this but yep it's long gone.

[ixnay]

I'd love to see the copy on those last 2 exit 11 signs' replacements.

ixnay

[tckma]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke:

I always wonder how they expect anyone to read those regulation signs.  They're at toll booths and traffic is in motion there.

[Mr. Matté]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke:

I always wonder how they expect anyone to read those regulation signs.  They're at toll booths and traffic is in motion there.

They're for your $afety (that way when someone pulls you over for breaking some obscure regulation, you can't claim ignorance of the rules)

[jeffandnicole]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke:

I always wonder how they expect anyone to read those regulation signs.  They're at toll booths and traffic is in motion there.

They're for your $afety (that way when someone pulls you over for breaking some obscure regulation, you can't claim ignorance of the rules)

Doesn't matter if the law is posted or not though.

Honestly...never understood why those signs are there. I seriously doubt they've been updated much anyway.

[mrsman]

Roadman your point is well taken. But just for argument's sake, if the FHWA wanted to strictly enforce the city name requirement, they could force the NJTA to sign Exit 14C as Lower-Manhattan, Exit 16E as Mid-Manhattan and Exit 18E as Upper-Manhattan. I'm NOT suggesting they should do that, but again if they were that insistent, who knows how absurd it could get?

Wouldn't be the first time the writers of the MUTCD created a problem where there wasn't one. Take the issue of down arrows and APL signs for instance or discouraging a street name and city name on the same sign.

I largely agree with your assessment.  NYC should be the northern control of the Turnpike until you reach exit 14.  Even though I generally prefer signing two controls (local and express), as you can see by my comments further down, NYC is such a destination that only one control is really necessary for this whole stretch.  Then, I would hope that they would sign both Holland Tunnel and Lower Manhattan at the appropriate exit.

Exit 14ABC: Jersey City Holland Tunnel Lower Manhattan
Lincoln Tunnel New York City
Geo Washington Bridge Upper Manhattan

I hope not to see a New Haven control along I-95 until you are well into NYC.  Along the trans-manhattan expy, the control should be Bronx, and you should only begin to see New Haven once you begin to see signs for I-87:  I-87 north Albany, I-87 south Queens, I-95 north New Haven.

Southbound controls along I-95 should be Newark (not Trenton) while still in the Bronx and Manhattan.   At I-80, the control should be "Paterson, San Francisco" (just the first sign at the interchange).  (The rest of the controls along I-80 west in NJ and PA should have one local control (Paterson, Del Water Gap, etc.) and one express control (Cleveland).)  The signs for I-95 should have both Newark and Trenton from this point until I-280.  Then, the cotrols should be Newark Airport, Trenton until you pass the exit for the airport.  Then the controls should be Trenton, Philadelphia until exit 7A.  Philadelphia, Baltimore until exit 6.  (Exit 6's control should be Philadelphia, Harrisburg.)  And then Wilmington, Baltimore* until the Del Mem Bridge.

* I know that the signs along the southern turnpike with the control of Wilmington (instead of the old control of Del Mem Bridge) are relatively new, so the expense of changing them all may not be warranted, but definitely should be a sign with a Baltimore control at the key Exit 6 decision point.  The controls along the parallel southbound I-295 should match.  The controls should say Wilmington instead of Del Mem Bridge for consistency purposes.

[jeffandnicole]

The NJ Turnpike should've matched NJDOT, which already had the signs posted and have many more pull-thru signs than the NJ Turnpike.

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

If we don't want to use a state or landmark, Baltimore would've been the best pull-thru option for the NJ Turnpike.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

If we don't want to use a state or landmark, Baltimore would've been the best pull-thru option for the NJ Turnpike.

Wilmington isn't anyone's final destination?  Then by your logic, Washington shouldn't be used either.  By the time 95 enters DC on the Wilson Bridge, one is already south of the city.  And Boston shouldn't be used either.  95 never enters Boston.  I think you're missing the concept/purpose of a control city.

[mrsman]

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

If we don't want to use a state or landmark, Baltimore would've been the best pull-thru option for the NJ Turnpike.

Wilmington isn't anyone's final destination?  Then by your logic, Washington shouldn't be used either.  By the time 95 enters DC on the Wilson Bridge, one is already south of the city.  And Boston shouldn't be used either.  95 never enters Boston.  I think you're missing the concept/purpose of a control city.

I think the point that he is making is that nobody would be driving from Central nj  go all the way to the del mem bridge and then backtrack to Wilmington.  I never even considered that as an option until I saw the signs on the turnpike.

With that in mind, I believe Baltimore is a better control to signify that long distance traffic should stay on the turnpike and not take 95 into Philly.

[jeffandnicole]

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

If we don't want to use a state or landmark, Baltimore would've been the best pull-thru option for the NJ Turnpike.

Wilmington isn't anyone's final destination?  Then by your logic, Washington shouldn't be used either.  By the time 95 enters DC on the Wilson Bridge, one is already south of the city.  And Boston shouldn't be used either.  95 never enters Boston.  I think you're missing the concept/purpose of a control city.

Did I say Wilimington is no one's final destination? No, seriously...you even quoted what I said, and that wasnt what i said.

I'll tell you want...go down there and watch the traffic flow. The overwhelming traffic flow goes to I-95 South, with 13/40 South being the second most popular option. The weekday morning rush hour does send some traffic North towards Wilmington, but even then the majority of the traffic is going South.

I know the purpose of a control city. Wilmington hasn't been used ever on 295, and until recently, never on the NJ Turnpike. Wilmington doesn't meet the concept/purpose of a control city for the corridor. You seem to think that I'm thinking a control city is directly along the highway. I never said that, but then again, you already misquoted me so I'm not to surprised you aren't very good at reading my mind either.

[SignBridge]

Guys, there's plenty of room for difference of opinion here re: control cities. It's kind of subjective, not an exact science. I agree that Wilmington is a stretch since is is somewhat north of I-95, but you need a control city in the State of Delaware and the only other possibility as I see it would be Newark (Delaware) and some drivers would no doubt confuse that with Newark, NJ so not a good choice. Wilmington makes the best of an awkward situation.

I also like Baltimore as the express control city from Exit 6 south. It is a suitable large, well known city, next along the route.

[vdeane]

Would it need to be in Delaware, though?  Maryland skips over not one but THREE states to sign New York!  And you'd think Philadelphia would be a major enough control city...

[1995hoo]

Would it need to be in Delaware, though?  Maryland skips over not one but THREE states to sign New York!  And you'd think Philadelphia would be a major enough control city...

[SignBridge]

Good point Vdeane. Like I said; it's not an exact science, even though it would be in a perfect world.

[D-Dey65]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke

I thought I saw a few others around, but I didn't take any pictures of them.

The NJ Turnpike should've matched NJDOT, which already had the signs posted and have many more pull-thru signs than the NJ Turnpike.

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

To me that doesn't matter. The Turnpike ends at I-295, and when that crosses the Delaware Memorial Bridge, you enter Wilmington. So, as far as I'm concerned, Wilmington is the right control city.

[Alps]

Would it need to be in Delaware, though?  Maryland skips over not one but THREE states to sign New York!  And you'd think Philadelphia would be a major enough control city...

They debated for a long time before settling on Wilmington.

[jeffandnicole]

Actually I think these are the last mainline button copy signs on the NJ Tpke

I thought I saw a few others around, but I didn't take any pictures of them.

The NJ Turnpike should've matched NJDOT, which already had the signs posted and have many more pull-thru signs than the NJ Turnpike.

Also, Wilmington isn't a natural or common destination for those going south; you're actually already south of the city when you enter Delaware.

To me that doesn't matter. The Turnpike ends at I-295, and when that crosses the Delaware Memorial Bridge, you enter Wilmington. So, as far as I'm concerned, Wilmington is the right control city.

You don't enter Wilmington once you cross the bridge.

Someone on 95/295 only goes thru zip coded areas belonging to New Castle and Newark.  Even by expanding Wilmington into its non-incorporated areas with Wilmington addresses, you still don't enter Wilmington at any point along the 295/95 corridor one normally drives from NJ southward.

[Don'tKnowYet]

Again, you're using too much science.  The selection of a city is about customer/quality of service for the motorist.

[jeffandnicole]

I'm just stating the facts as well, especially when stated that someone believes they enter Wilmington when crossing from NJ to DE.

Also...is Wilmington the most appropriate city? Its *never* used going Northbound until you're about 2 miles away, and even on our eternal debates on these boards regarding Maryland and its use of New York, Wilmington isn't even a consideration of an alternative city. It's simply too small of a city that'll be of much assistance to most motorists.

Another consideration: In my days of working the NJ Turnpike's Interchange 1, people most often asked how far it is to (in order of most often asked): 1) Baltimore, 2) Washington DC, 3) the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and 4) the Maryland House. Philly was asked as well, due to motorists not realizing they're not on 95 and thus didn't realize they already passed the city. If Wilmington was asked, it was a rare. It's simply not a city motorists could reference as a destination...or even a spot along their route.  When people are more aware of a rest stop than a city, it's use as a control city should be severely questioned.

[Steve D]

Would it need to be in Delaware, though?  Maryland skips over not one but THREE states to sign New York!  And you'd think Philadelphia would be a major enough control city...

They debated for a long time before settling on Wilmington.

Up until the early 1990s there was an old button copy sign at exit 6 southbound (not the famous overhead art deco sign) that said the following:  "NJ TURNPIKE SOUTH Camden Washington KEEP LEFT"

[PHLBOS]

Would it need to be in Delaware, though?  Maryland skips over not one but THREE states to sign New York!  And you'd think Philadelphia would be a major enough control city...

They debated for a long time before settling on Wilmington.

Up until the early 1990s there was an old button copy sign at exit 6 southbound (not the famous overhead art deco sign) that said the following:  "NJ TURNPIKE SOUTH Camden Washington KEEP LEFT"

Wow, I would love to see an old photo of that sign.  Its early-90s successor sign (as most here know) read NJ TURNPIKE SOUTH Camden Delaware

[bzakharin]

I'm just stating the facts as well, especially when stated that someone believes they enter Wilmington when crossing from NJ to DE.

Also...is Wilmington the most appropriate city? Its *never* used going Northbound until you're about 2 miles away, and even on our eternal debates on these boards regarding Maryland and its use of New York, Wilmington isn't even a consideration of an alternative city. It's simply too small of a city that'll be of much assistance to most motorists.

Another consideration: In my days of working the NJ Turnpike's Interchange 1, people most often asked how far it is to (in order of most often asked): 1) Baltimore, 2) Washington DC, 3) the Delaware Memorial Bridge, and 4) the Maryland House. Philly was asked as well, due to motorists not realizing they're not on 95 and thus didn't realize they already passed the city. If Wilmington was asked, it was a rare. It's simply not a city motorists could reference as a destination...or even a spot along their route.  When people are more aware of a rest stop than a city, it's use as a control city should be severely questioned.

I suppose Wilmington could be used until Commodore Barry Bridge or at least NJ 73. They already post travel times to Wilmington via Exit 4 and Exit 1 on VMSs sometimes. After that, there don't seem to be any good choices. some bad ones are Pennsville, Carneys Point, New Castle, Newark (DE), and Baltimore. Dover is also possible because US 40 is signed that on the other side of the bridge.