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I-69 in TX

Started by Grzrd, October 09, 2010, 01:18:12 PM

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TXtoNJ

Quote from: vdeane on July 16, 2013, 09:49:38 PM
I still don't understand why Texas is building three I-69s in the valley.

Like every other bit of highway-related stupidity: local politicians


english si

Though Laredo is some way from the other two bits.

And hey, the other two bits are far enough apart to have a two-di that simply links them :P

texaskdog

69C & 2 (as one highway named...37?) would have been fine

roadman65

I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

HandsomeRob

Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.

roadman65

Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers. 
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

texaskdog

Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers. 
35e is the "implied main route" though thru traffic would more likely go through Fort Worth

RoadWarrior56

I am pretty sure there is an AASHTO mileage convention that in the case of split routes, the East (E) or north branch (N) carries the through mileage.  I believe I-35E carries the through mileage through St. Paul, MN, as well.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.

Molandfreak

#509
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 24, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).

Whoops!  My mistake.

Molandfreak

Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 24, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).

Whoops!  My mistake.
To be fair, 35E was built later with three different routing possibilities at the time 35W was finished, so they may have had to choose one route to carry on the miles and stick with it.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

RoadWarrior56

There really is a rule or convention that sets priorities on which branch continues the mileage, I saw it somewhere, I just don't remember where.  Notice that both 35E's carry the through mileage, which is consistent with it.  It would also apply to the North branch of an east-west interstate, if there were any left.  By the time Texas is through, there may eventually be an I-69N and I-69S to go along with the rest of the family.  In all seriousness, I don't think an I-69C occured to anybody in determining mileage.

roadman65

I do not know why they do not leave I-69C as mainline I-69 and the other two as suffixed routes.  Then again, why can't the I-69W be I-6 or an x69 and I-37 be an I-37 extension either, this is a precident for sure.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

CanesFan27

Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 10:08:36 PM
I do not know why they do not leave I-69C as mainline I-69 and the other two as suffixed routes.  Then again, why can't the I-69W be I-6 or an x69 and I-37 be an I-37 extension either, this is a precident for sure.

Because they knew this would be a discussion topic for the next 20 years in this forum - and decided to #trollsohard

texaskdog

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 24, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).

But you drive 35W because 35E is the practice freeway with a 45 MPH speed limit in saint paul

Molandfreak

Quote from: texaskdog on July 25, 2013, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 24, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).

But you drive 35W because 35E is the practice freeway with a 45 MPH speed limit in saint paul
In a nutshell, yes, but when all the work at the 35W-62 ramps was taking place, your best bet was to take 35E. Has there ever been a situation like this in Texas?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 05, 2023, 08:24:57 PM
AASHTO attributes 28.5% of highway inventory shrink to bad road fan social media posts.

ethanhopkin14

Quote from: Molandfreak on July 25, 2013, 10:38:41 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on July 25, 2013, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on July 24, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 24, 2013, 04:41:49 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 24, 2013, 03:31:52 PM
Quote from: HandsomeRob on July 23, 2013, 10:33:57 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2013, 09:25:25 AM
I am interested in seeing the exit numbering scheme.  Being that all three routes begin I-69's southern end, they each will basically have its own numbering scheme, unlike I-35E that has a continuation of I-35's numbering with only I-35W having its own.  Does anyone know which one of the three trunks, will I-69 carry north of the confluence?
Most likely whichever one is longest (69E?) so as to avoid any duplicate exit numbers.
The funny thing is on I-35 the longer one has its own exit numbers.  I-35W is longer than I-35E and I-35E carries I-35's straight through exit numbers.

Negative. Interstate 35E is well known to be the longer of the two routes, and it is well know if you are south of the split (San Antonio, Austin, Waco) and you are going to points north, like Oklahoma City, the through route is the 85 mile long Interstate 35W vs. the 97 mile Interstate 35E that winds more east than the more straight 35W. Funny thing is, with their Minnesota counterparts, Interstate 35E is also the longer of the two and carries the overall Interstate 35 mileage. I don't think there is an AASHTO rule, I think in both situations they took the route with the longest miles.
No. I-35W is longer than I-35E in Minnesota (39 vs. 41 miles).

But you drive 35W because 35E is the practice freeway with a 45 MPH speed limit in saint paul
In a nutshell, yes, but when all the work at the 35W-62 ramps was taking place, your best bet was to take 35E. Has there ever been a situation like this in Texas?

Not that I remember. It seems that all the major road work happens in Dallas.  Maybe back when Interstate 20 was being re-routed around Dallas and Ft. Worth, since they worked on it going from east to west, so when the I-20 and I-35W interchange was being worked on, it's counterpart in DeSoto was completed. Funny, I was in Dallas Sunday night and they had only the right hand lane open southbound on I-35E for repaving. 

texaskdog

We don't go to DFW often but there's ALWAYS construction somewhere on it.  ALWAYS!

Grzrd

#519
Quote from: lordsutch on July 16, 2013, 11:10:56 PM
QuoteThen, have TxDOT et al abandoned efforts to include US 281 "from the Rio Grande River" to US 83/I-2 as part of I-69C?
Well, technically US 281 starts in Brownsville near the Rio Grande River.  You could make the argument that I-69E to I-2 fulfills that requirement even if it's not signed as I-69C along there.

At its November 16, 2012 meeting, the AASHTO Special Committee on U.S. Route Numbering disapproved TxDOT's request for an interstate designation for US 83, in part because TxDOT had not specified a number for the designation (page 1/7 of pdf).  In looking at the Texas Transportation Commission September 27, 2012 Minutes, I'm beginning to wonder if Texas did not specify a number because they may have thought that the federal legislation did not give them a choice in the matter (pp. 29-30/34 of pdf):

Quote
This minute order authorizes the department to petition the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering to recognize one or more segments of US 83 as logical additions to the Interstate System, with the condition that FHWA finds that each segment meets the criteria contained in Appendix A to Subpart A of 23 CFR Part 470 and approves the addition to the Interstate System. It is further recognized that it is the purview of the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering to assign an Interstate route number to the designated highway in coordination with FHWA.
IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED by the Texas Transportation Commission (commission) that the department is authorized to submit an application to the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering requesting the recognition of one or more segments of US 83 in the Rio Grande Valley as logical additions to the Interstate System.
IT IS UNDERSTOOD that following approval by the AASHTO Special Committee on US Route Numbering and FHWA, the commission will designate the segments with the assigned Interstate route number by minute order.

I wonder if Texas officials were concerned that, since the US 83 routing between US 281 and US 77 (plus US 77 to the border) is basically a substitute for US 281 from US 83 to near the border, a strict reading of the statute would have required US 83 between US 281 and US 77 to be designated as I-69C and would have also required the US 83 segment from US 281 westward to have been assigned another interstate designation? Such a concern would explain the language "one or more segments of US 83".  It would also explain the language that "it is the purview" of AASHTO to "assign an Interstate route number".  In short, Texas may have been telling FHWA/AASHTO: "You tell us what the statute requires".

I assume that, once AASHTO kicked it backed to TxDOT, TxDOT took it as a green light to go for I-2 for the entire US 83 segment at the May, 2013 AASHTO meeting.  Maybe one day the "inside story" will be revealed as to why Texas did not initially request a specific interstate number for US 83.

texaskdog

I still think I-2 should eventually be part of an extension of I-35

Grzrd

Quote from: lordsutch on July 16, 2013, 09:40:56 PM
Straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/national_highway_system/high_priority_corridors/hpcor.cfm#l18
Unlike with I-69E and I-69C, there is no legal authority requiring, or even allowing, AASHTO or FHWA to designate an "I-69 West" or any variant thereof. It seems to me that legally mainline I-69 would have to go to Laredo, unless ISTEA is modified to designate an "I-69W."
Quote from: Grzrd on July 17, 2013, 08:06:10 AM
Quote from: english si on July 17, 2013, 07:46:13 AM
QuoteIn the Lower Rio Grande Valley, the Corridor shall-
ii. include United States Route 281 from the Rio Grande River to Interstate Route 37 and then to Victoria, Texas, via United States Route 59; [I-69 Central]
wait a minute. I-69C is legally defined to Victoria, and includes a three-way junction with itself at George West (or does it then, on arriving at I-37 north of Three Rivers take I-37 to US 59?)
english si's observation strengthens the case for an I-69W designation.

I just received an email from FHWA and their current interpretation of HPC 18 and HPC 20 shoots down an I-69W notion in flames, and it allows TxDOT to choose between I-69C and I-69 for the Victoria to George West segment of US 59:

Quote
US 59 from Victoria to George West can be I-69 or I-69C, which ever Texas Department of Transportation requests.
US 59 from George West to Laredo can be I-69, but not I-69W or I-X69 (spur).  This is based on the current law.

But if TxDOT chooses I-69C for Victoria to George West .....................  :bigass:

NE2

But the current law does not allow for I-369.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Grzrd

Quote from: NE2 on July 25, 2013, 05:49:56 PM
But the current law does not allow for I-369.

Agreed: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3624.msg233401#msg233401

The FHWA official seems to have concluded that the Tenaha-to-Texarkana segment of the I-69 Corridor is a "spur" (thus allowing I-369), whereas the George West-to-Laredo segment of the I-69 Corridor is not a "spur" (thus not allowing an I-x69).

Of course, the legislation is silent on "spur" distinctions.  Hardly worth litigation, however.

Alps

Quote from: Grzrd on July 25, 2013, 05:02:38 PM
But if TxDOT chooses I-69C for Victoria to George West .....................  :bigass:
... for someone from 1,500 miles away - does that mean there would be a gap in 69?



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