Are there too many grocery stores?

[I-39]

This article is from a few years ago, but it's still pretty applicable. With the contraction in the general merchandise retailers since the rise of e-commerce, I have been wondering if we'll eventually see a contraction in supermarket chains sooner or later.

https://www.retailwire.com/discussion/are-there-too-many-grocery-stores/

It seems like every major retailer is trying to be a hypermarket of some sorts these days (even Kohl's is testing having Aldi in some of their stores). Combine with the numerous local chains, can the market sustain all of these grocery stores?

[hbelkins]

On the other hand, you read a lot about "food deserts." A reduction in the number of places to buy groceries would cause even more of them, wouldn't it?

[Bruce]

Too many of them are clustered too close together. If only we hadn't made the corner grocer all but extinct with awful zoning laws. There's a happy medium between a convenience store and full-scale supermarket that people would be happy to provide if it was legal to.

[hotdogPi]

If only we hadn't made the corner grocer all but extinct with awful zoning laws.

Lawrence, MA has a whole bunch of them.

[SP Cook]

The whole "food desert"  concept is just idiocy.

I do not think there is enough competition in grocery stores in most area.  Kroger, Wal-Mart and some independents that mostly survive because they don't sell beer and certain religious groups won't shop at beer selling places.   I would welcome more competition.

[abefroman329]

There definitely aren't too many, and based on the awful experiences I've had with Instacart, there's no such thing as an e-commerce platform that will replace them.

[Max Rockatansky]

There definitely isn't too many in rural areas.  Good luck finding a reliable general store much less a grocery store in the more sparsely populated areas of the country.

[hotdogPi]

The Lawrence, MA ones I was referring to before:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7195686,-71.1579517,3a,72.8y,253.13h,90.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMxecOeZ3BRsBDQxF1XwhHQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7163695,-71.1655147,3a,75y,87.39h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5aUKXKjZV5bfQWuUFxyIFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.711367,-71.1688688,3a,75y,244.11h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDwQnNOP_i7QxKaDIuJ78Ug!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DDwQnNOP_i7QxKaDIuJ78Ug%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D229.52269%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Would you prefer the current setup or small stores like this every 1000 feet or so? (Note that Lawrence is mostly Hispanic, which wouldn't apply in most places.)

[SkyPesos]

I think a lot of our grocery stores are way too big.

[Flint1979]

Saginaw at one time had 3 Kroger stores. One closed in 2016, another closed in 2017 and in 2017 the third one was expanded which is a store that replaced two other Kroger stores in 2008. Not too long after the 2008 store was expanded they stopped being open 24 hours which doesn't make much sense when they said they were trying to compete with Walmart and Meijer. Now I guess the 24 hour thing doesn't matter since none of them stores are open 24 hours anymore, this store is open 6am-11pm daily right now but was open 6am-1am when they stopped being open 24 hours.

The store is too big now and overly crowded due to having only one Kroger store in Saginaw (city and township combined have about 90,000 people). There is another Kroger in Bridgeport but that is a much smaller store.

In Flint, they are down to just one in the city but have two in Flint Township and one in Grand Blanc. The two in Flint Township are about 2 miles from each other on the same street (Corunna Road aka M-21).

[Takumi]

There definitely aren't too many, and based on the awful experiences I've had with Instacart, there's no such thing as an e-commerce platform that will replace them.

I did some Instacart shopping earlier this year, both when I worked for Aldi (the store’s curbside service was done entirely through Instacart instead of its own proprietary system) and independently after I left the company. As an independent shopper it was much more frustrating to use.

[abefroman329]

There definitely aren't too many, and based on the awful experiences I've had with Instacart, there's no such thing as an e-commerce platform that will replace them.

I did some Instacart shopping earlier this year, both when I worked for Aldi (the store's curbside service was done entirely through Instacart instead of its own proprietary system) and independently after I left the company. As an independent shopper it was much more frustrating to use.

Oh, I'm sure it was maddening to do as a shopper [ask me how awful it was to drive for Uber full-time].

[1995hoo]

I don't think there are too many grocery store chains, but I do think in some cases there are too many stores too close to each other. In my neighborhood, within walking distance of my house we have a Giant (regional chain), a Safeway, an Aldi, and a Wal-Mart that has somewhat of a grocery department (not a "Supercenter" store); also, a little futher away, maybe another three-quarters of a mile, we have a new Amazon Fresh grocery store, and then Wegmans is only a few minutes' further by car (probably two or three miles further, not sure of the exact distance). There's another Safeway about two miles east of us, though there's little overlap in their clientele versus the one in our neighborhood (due mostly to road layout). There are other chains in the DC area, but those are the ones near us.

Giant and Safeway are roughly comparable in terms of being full-service grocery stores; Giant has an in-store pharmacy but I'm not sure about Safeway because I seldom go there. Aldi, of course, isn't really the same sort of store. But I do wonder which store will ultimately be squeezed out when leases come up for renegotiation. Three grocery stores plus Wal-Mart all within half a mile of each other seems like overkill to me. My gut tells me Safeway would be the most likely to close, simply because Giant has a long-established presence as a regional chain in the DC area and has a loyal customer base (even though Wegmans and Harris Teeter are both better).

I normally go to Wegmans for our groceries. My wife works part-time and passes a Harris Teeter in Alexandria on her way to and from work, so she usually stops there if we need something mid-week.

[abefroman329]

My gut tells me Safeway would be the most likely to close, simply because Giant has a long-established presence as a regional chain in the DC area and has a loyal customer base (even though Wegmans and Harris Teeter are both better).

What?  Safeway has a long-established presence, too.  Their reputation is probably a little lower than Giant's, though - many of the Safeway locations in/very close to DC had nicknames, and only one of them was flattering.

I went to the Wegman's in Lanham shortly after it opened and was...underwhelmed.

[Rothman]

Thinking of Syracuse, NY, downtown is almost a food desert, grocery-wise.  There are now a couple of small foodie shops, but beyond that, not much.

What's worse to me is Tops Markets' practice of diving into food deserts in economically challenged areas of cities and charging exorbitant prices since they have a small-scale monopoly where they set up.  I suppose it is a profitable business model, but it's pretty galling.

[webny99]

I went to the Wegman's in Lanham shortly after it opened and was...underwhelmed.

I don't know what your expectations were, but around here, Wegmans is just a normal grocery store. Sure, I guess you could call it the grocery store. We are pretty proud of it given that it originated here, and it's definitely better than say Tops or Aldi, but at the end of the day, there's only so many ways to differentiate.

[abefroman329]

I don't know what your expectations were

The people I knew who moved to the DC area from Upstate NY talked about it as if it was Disneyland on Christmas morning, so my expectations were high.

[1995hoo]

My gut tells me Safeway would be the most likely to close, simply because Giant has a long-established presence as a regional chain in the DC area and has a loyal customer base (even though Wegmans and Harris Teeter are both better).

What?  Safeway has a long-established presence, too.  Their reputation is probably a little lower than Giant's, though - many of the Safeway locations in/very close to DC had nicknames, and only one of them was flattering.

I went to the Wegman's in Lanham shortly after it opened and was...underwhelmed.

Oh, I know Safeway has been around forever, but I've never perceived them as having the same sort of loyal clientele Giant does.

[Life in Paradise]

Where I grew up there has been 2500-3200 residents.  About 60 years ago there were close to a dozen small neighborhood grocery stores including a small downtown storefront.  Forty to fifty years ago that changed to three supermarkets (basically the size of a current dollar store) and a convenience store or two.  Now there is one larger supermarket and three convenience stores.  Not as much choice, still higher prices since you have to drive 15-20 miles to get to another supermarket (or super WalMart).  In the larger cities you have significant competition, but you don't have in the small towns anymore.  You do have the larger WalMarts, Targets, and Meijers are battling the Krogers, Wegmans, Schnucks, Safeways, Food Lions, etc and the Aldi's and such fighting from the smaller side, but again, if you are in far flung rural America, you are most likely paying more because there isn't enough competition.

[webny99]

What's worse to me is Tops Markets' practice of diving into food deserts in economically challenged areas of cities and charging exorbitant prices since they have a small-scale monopoly where they set up.  I suppose it is a profitable business model, but it's pretty galling.

Yeah, I have noticed this as well. Tops seems to locate in all the small/depressed cities that Wegmans wouldn't bother with. You've got Fredonia, Medina, Attica, Dansville... the list goes on, and Tops is the only grocery chain in a lot of these places.

Their pricing strategy is probably the same across all stores: completely outrageous until you check the weekly flyer and realize that everything is BOGO. And even then, it might be more expensive than elsewhere. Best not set foot in there if you're bad at math! 

[hbelkins]

There definitely isn't too many in rural areas.  Good luck finding a reliable general store much less a grocery store in the more sparsely populated areas of the country.

This is what shocked me during my recent journey to Montana and Idaho (and to a lesser extent, Utah).

I live in a rural area (county population of 7,000, county seat population is 1,000) and I'm used to seeing general merchandise stores with great frequency. We're an hour from the nearest Walmart Supercenter, 30 minutes from the nearest "regular" Kroger, and an hour from the nearest Kroger Marketplace. We have a locally-owned IGA store and a Save-A-Lot, which I presume is corporately owned. A lot of the little mom-and-pop country stores that were prevalent in my youth are gone, but there are Dollar General stores all over the place, and several Family Dollars too, although not as many as Dollar General.

Traveling through Montana, I noticed that many of the towns had very little. Around here, a town the size of those would definitely have a Dollar General. I saw this week they are building their very first location in Idaho. Family Dollars are few and far between. And forget about an afternoon run to Walmart like we could do; a trip to one of those towns would consume a whole day. I wonder where those people shop.

Shelby was one place that really surprised me. It's on I-15 and is the gateway to Glacier, a very popular national park. I saw no general-merchandise retailers (there was an empty Shopko building, so they'd had one at one time). I saw one grocery store, a small Albertson's. No Family Dollar. None of the popular fast-food places you'd normally expect to see at a major interchange like I-15 and US 2.

Dillon was another. A decent sized town on I-15 with a college, serving as a gateway to Yellowstone. No Walmart. One Family Dollar (that was really picked over, as it was back-to-school week for the local college). I'm sure there was at least one grocery store, but I don't remember it.

I think I'm isolated. I think some of the valleys in southwestern West Virginia are really isolated. Some of those county seat towns in the high plains and foothills of the Rockies make this area look like NYC.

[corco]

Dillon has a pretty nice Safeway

[Scott5114]

The whole "food desert"  concept is just idiocy.

Well, obviously, because you can type it into the post box on AARoads forum with no further elaboration, everyone concerned with that problem should pack it in. "Hey! Guys! Did you hear, we don't have to worry about this anymore, S.P. Cook says it's idiocy!"

Before Homeland opened at NE 36th and Lincoln, there were zero grocery stores in the loop bounded by I-235 to the west, I-35 to the east, I-35/40 to the south, and I-44 to the north. A couple Family Dollars, but no actual grocery stores. This is the part of the city that contains the State Capitol, the Zoo, Remington Park, and the national softball championship park, so it's not exactly a remote part of town. It also contains a bunch of low-income neighborhoods, so not everyone has the ability to drive elsewhere to the nearest store.

Downtown OKC is also lacking any sort of grocery store. The nearest one is at NW 18th and Classen, which is a good mile and a half or so as the crow flies from the central business district or the Deep Deuce district–not huge distances if you have a car, it's a major deterrent to going in on foot and picking up a few items as you need them. Unlike in other cities, there isn't any sort of zoning issue here that makes placing a grocery store downtown difficult; there was a small independent grocer in Deep Deuce for a while, but it failed because they went in with an upscale Whole Foods sort of business model, which doesn't tend to play well anywhere other than Memorial Road.

[Takumi]

Thinking of Syracuse, NY, downtown is almost a food desert, grocery-wise.  There are now a couple of small foodie shops, but beyond that, not much.

What's worse to me is Tops Markets' practice of diving into food deserts in economically challenged areas of cities and charging exorbitant prices since they have a small-scale monopoly where they set up.  I suppose it is a profitable business model, but it's pretty galling.

Down here, that's Food Lion's strategy.

[LilianaUwU]

Here in Québec, the corner stores (known as dépanneurs) are very much plentiful. Most villages have one, and they're often connected to a gas station.