Worst control city on an interstate in your state

[Ned Weasel]

Kansas City, because it's over-used.  Most major highways in Kansas lead to Kansas City in the northbound/eastbound direction, so it would be more helpful if the signs told you which ones go through which municipalities first.  How could this situation be improved?  US 24/40 could use Bonner Springs east of Tonganoxie.  US 69 could use Overland Park north of Fort Scott.  I-35 could use Olathe or Lenexa once it reaches Emporia.

Adjusting the control cities on I-35 would allow removal of the dual use of Kansas City at Exit 127, where it's currently shown as the control city for both I-35 and I-335 (an MUTCD violation).  It would be simpler and more elegant to sign neither road for Kansas City at that point, since probably 99% of drivers already know they can get to Kansas City either way at that point.

For an example of how this is done better elsewhere, New Jersey uses Newark on eastbound I-78, even though New York City is the official control city ( https://traffic.transportation.org/interstate-control-cities/ ).  Why is it handled this way?  Well, lots of major highways in the area go to New York City, so it would be silly to use that as the control city on all the ones that do.  (That being said, I question the use of New York as the control city for US 22 at the interchange with I-287, but oh well.)

[Scott5114]

Kansas City, because it's over-used.  Most major highways in Kansas lead to Kansas City in the northbound/eastbound direction, so it would be more helpful if the signs told you which ones go through which municipalities first.  How could this situation be improved?  US 24/40 could use Bonner Springs east of Tonganoxie.  US 69 could use Overland Park north of Fort Scott.  I-35 could use Olathe or Lenexa once it reaches Emporia.

Hard disagree–practically nobody outside of Kansas or Missouri knows where Overland Park, Olathe, or Lenexa are. Signing those from as far out as you're proposing would be pure Johnson County vanity. (My wife listens to a podcast done by a couple of Arizona comedians, and they were doing an episode about something that took place in central Missouri. At one point, the subjects of the story went to Olathe for something, and not only did they seem confused as to why someone from Missouri might want to go there–they didn't seem to be aware it was in the Kansas City area–they couldn't even figure out how to pronounce Olathe correctly.)

What you're proposing would be like advocating for Oklahoma to use Broken Arrow, Catoosa, and Bixby more, rather than Tulsa.

Adjusting the control cities on I-35 would allow removal of the dual use of Kansas City at Exit 127, where it's currently shown as the control city for both I-35 and I-335 (an MUTCD violation).  It would be simpler and more elegant to sign neither road for Kansas City at that point, since probably 99% of drivers already know they can get to Kansas City either way at that point.

I feel like the pre-2013 signage there may have more accurately indicated the situation than the current signage (bubble shield, suspect shield ordering, bizarre abbreviation, and grubby arrows notwithstanding):


In any case, removing Kansas City here would be very clear-cut the wrong way to do it. This interchange confuses people not from Kansas (and even people from Kansas City, as my own grandmother has missed the exit there!), as TOTSO situations like this in the middle of nowhere are not something most people encounter very often. Most people not using a sat-nav are going to have directions that say something like "follow I-35 from Wichita to Kansas City", and if they see an I-35 shield on an exit without the additional positive guidance of having a control of Kansas City, they're going to be unsure of what the correct choice is.

Basically the only reason to remove Kansas City at this interchange is if you're interested in padding KTA's revenue.

[Ned Weasel]

Hard disagree–practically nobody outside of Kansas or Missouri knows where Overland Park, Olathe, or Lenexa are. Signing those from as far out as you're proposing would be pure Johnson County vanity. (My wife listens to a podcast done by a couple of Arizona comedians, and they were doing an episode about something that took place in central Missouri. At one point, the subjects of the story went to Olathe for something, and not only did they seem confused as to why someone from Missouri might want to go there–they didn't seem to be aware it was in the Kansas City area–they couldn't even figure out how to pronounce Olathe correctly.)

Overland Park is pretty well known.  Aside from being the second-largest city in Kansas and often being called the economic engine in Kansas, it's repeatedly been ranked as one of the best places in the U.S. to live and/or raise a family ( https://livability.com/best-places/2021-top-100-best-places-to-live-in-america/top-100-2021-overland-park-ks/ , https://money.com/collection/best-places-to-live-2021/5746498/overland-park-kansas-2021/ , https://shawneemissionpost.com/2021/05/25/overland-park-best-of-cities-niche-122882/ , https://money.com/collection/2018-best-places-to-live/5361464/overland-park-kansas-2/ , https://www.wibw.com/2021/06/01/overland-park-named-best-city-to-raise-a-family/ , https://www.wibw.com/2022/05/31/report-finds-overland-park-second-best-place-raise-family/ ).  Regardless of whether you love or hate Johnson County, the fact is that it's the location of four of Kansas's ten most populous cities, and it's the state's most populous county.

Can you tell me what makes Hays more worthy of control city status than Overland Park?  (Aside from this interchange: https://goo.gl/maps/xhnXj1Qm7PWU1R7HA , which is pretty slick, to be honest.)

What you're proposing would be like advocating for Oklahoma to use Broken Arrow, Catoosa, and Bixby more, rather than Tulsa.

I would be fine with this.

In any case, removing Kansas City here would be very clear-cut the wrong way to do it. This interchange confuses people not from Kansas (and even people from Kansas City, as my own grandmother has missed the exit there!), as TOTSO situations like this in the middle of nowhere are not something most people encounter very often. Most people not using a sat-nav are going to have directions that say something like "follow I-35 from Wichita to Kansas City", and if they see an I-35 shield on an exit without the additional positive guidance of having a control of Kansas City, they're going to be unsure of what the correct choice is.

Basically the only reason to remove Kansas City at this interchange is if you're interested in padding KTA's revenue.

I'm not really sure how to make the interchange less confusing, short of rebuilding it, which was already done recently.  You could re-stripe the northbound lanes so I-35 and I-335 only get one lane each approaching the split, but then you'd be artificially introducing an inefficiency.

As for "TOTSO situations...in the middle of nowhere," Interstates 44, 49, 70, 76, 80, 90, and 95 say hello.

[SEWIGuy]

Maybe Tomah as the primary control for I-90 west at the 90/94 split. You're already in Tomah at that point, and certain parts of the town are more accessible via I-94. It would be better to use La Crosse and then Rochester, or just La Crosse.

I think its the use of Fond du Lac on I-41 NB in the Milwaukee area.  Should be Appleton.

The Fox Valley is tough for control cities. For I-41 NB you can make a case for FDL, Oshkosh, and Appleton, and Green Bay from US-151 northward. I think there's compelling arguments for all of them. In fact, I-41 NB at US-151 is signed for Oshkosh, Appleton, and Green Bay.

FdL isn't in the Fox Valley.  Appleton is almost twice the size - it should be the control city for I-41.  Green Bay for I-43.

[Revive 755]

Where do I start in Illinois?  Do I start with "Interstate 57"  on I-24, "Suburbs"  for I-355, or Sterling-Rock Falls for I-88 east from I-80?

At the moment I would go with "Iowa" on I-80 and I-88.  Ask me some other day and I might go with "Wisconsin" on I-94 and I-90.

[Scott5114]

Overland Park is pretty well known.  Aside from being the second-largest city in Kansas and often being called the economic engine in Kansas, it's repeatedly been ranked as one of the best places in the U.S. to live and/or raise a family

That doesn't mean anyone outside Kansas can reliably place it on a map or have even heard of it. If so, putting it on a sign serves no navigational purpose.

People whose destination is in Overland Park will know it is near to Kansas City. People whose destination is in Kansas City or beyond will have little reason to contemplate Overland Park's existence.

Remember, road signs aren't there for the locals.

Can you tell me what makes Hays more worthy of control city status than Overland Park?

Something to consider here is the prominence of a city, in the sense of topographic prominence as used in mountaineering. Overland Park doesn't make a good control city because it's part of a larger metropolitan area and is surrounded by cities with similar population densities; in effect, it doesn't stand out from the crowd.

The reverse of that logic is why Hays, as it is, is used as a control. Sure, it's a sort of dinky town, and if it were in eastern Kansas, no way it should be a control. But it's the biggest thing for hours in either direction.

(And it's why those of us in the central US get to have control cities at all; in some other control city thread I figured out that the state of California has 70 cities  larger than Lawton, the smallest Interstate control city in Oklahoma. Most of these California cities are not used as control cities because they lack prominence.)

I'm not really sure how to make the interchange less confusing, short of rebuilding it, which was already done recently.  You could re-stripe the northbound lanes so I-35 and I-335 only get one lane each approaching the split, but then you'd be artificially introducing an inefficiency.

As for "TOTSO situations...in the middle of nowhere," Interstates 44, 49, 70, 76, 80, 90, and 95 say hello.

There's also a diagrammatic in the lead up to it clearly showing I-35 exiting and I-335 continuing on. I think that's a perfect application for a diagrammatic–it doesn't really impart any useful lane-usage meaning, but it helps underscore how the interchange works and what to do to follow your desired route.

Also, note that I said that TOTSOs in the middle of nowhere aren't something people encounter very often. If you can think of seven other examples in the whole country, that kind of proves the point I'm making. And I'm not really sure where that happens along I-44; the I-44 TOTSOs I can think of are in Oklahoma City or metro Tulsa. TOTSOs to switch a designation from one urban freeway to another are a much more common situation.

[ilpt4u]

Where do I start in Illinois?  Do I start with "Interstate 57"  on I-24, "Suburbs"  for I-355, or Sterling-Rock Falls for I-88 east from I-80?

At the moment I would go with "Iowa" on I-80 and I-88.  Ask me some other day and I might go with "Wisconsin" on I-94 and I-90.

"Cairo"  on I-57 and "East St Louis"  on I-55, 64, and 70 are also horrid in IL

[hbelkins]

For Kentucky, Louisville.

Oh wait, you're talking about the city's status as a control city, not the city itself.

Kentucky's make sense with the exception of using Fulton on I-69. Dyersburg or Memphis would make more sense, and it's possible Fulton will change once I-69 is complete. I guess it was used because Fulton was listed for the Purchase Parkway.

Otherwise, Kentucky's are pretty logical.

I-24 -- St. Louis, Paducah, and Nashville
I-64 -- St. Louis, Louisville, Lexington, Ashland, and Huntington
I-65 -- Indianapolis, Louisville, and Nashville
I-71 -- Louisville and Cincinnati
I-75 -- Knoxville, Lexington, and Cincinnati

West Virginia has a number of questionable ones, but Lewisburg is probably the worst offender.

[roadman65]

In Florida it's Naples on I-75 as it should be Fort Myers and then Miami as Naples ain't that prominent.

Lake City is horrible for I-10 at Tallahassee and at Jacksonville as the city is far off the interstate with two exits with little services at each.  Should be Jacksonville from Tallahassee and Tallahassee from Jacksonville.

[SEWIGuy]

In Florida it's Naples on I-75 as it should be Fort Myers and then Miami as Naples ain't that prominent.

Lake City is horrible for I-10 at Tallahassee and at Jacksonville as the city is far off the interstate with two exits with little services at each.  Should be Jacksonville from Tallahassee and Tallahassee from Jacksonville.

Naples is pretty prominent and its where I-75 turns east.  Good control city.

[ran4sh]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

[Roadgeekteen]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

I-75 is the fastest route.

[michravera]

Thru Traffic on I-290 

This is like California on I-605 in the LA area it has Thru Traffic as a control city instead of Seal Beach or Duarte.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_605

make
California's large number (but maybe not enough -- a different matter) of roads, large number of populous cities, and funny--bordering on weird-- geography it difficult to pick control cities that are not any of the following:
1) Too Near for those unfamiliar with the area to use to distinguish routes
2) Not well known enough except maybe by locals to use to distinguish routes. Locals don't need the control cities -- Visitors do!
3) Too far away to work out whether the road goes to the closer, more frequent destination

So, we are often stuck with things like "Other Desert Cities" to avoid using some small town in a neighboring state that few would know or giving confusing names like Palm Desert, Desert Hot Springs, Indian Springs, 29 Palms, Rancho Mirage, etc, all of which are close to each other, or "Thru Traffic" to avoid naming small towns that visitors wouldn't know so as to help decide, if you are going mostly east, mostly southwest, or mostly south.

[GaryV]

In Florida it's Naples on I-75 as it should be Fort Myers and then Miami as Naples ain't that prominent.

Naples is pretty prominent and its where I-75 turns east.  Good control city.

Didn't I-75 end at Naples at one time?

[thspfc]

Maybe Tomah as the primary control for I-90 west at the 90/94 split. You're already in Tomah at that point, and certain parts of the town are more accessible via I-94. It would be better to use La Crosse and then Rochester, or just La Crosse.

I think its the use of Fond du Lac on I-41 NB in the Milwaukee area.  Should be Appleton.

The Fox Valley is tough for control cities. For I-41 NB you can make a case for FDL, Oshkosh, and Appleton, and Green Bay from US-151 northward. I think there's compelling arguments for all of them. In fact, I-41 NB at US-151 is signed for Oshkosh, Appleton, and Green Bay.

FdL isn't in the Fox Valley.  Appleton is almost twice the size - it should be the control city for I-41.  Green Bay for I-43.

But Oshkosh is over 50% larger than FDL also. With mileage from the Zoo Interchange:

FDL - 43k city, 100k metro; 57 miles
Oshkosh - 66k city, 160k metro; 76 miles
Appleton - 74k city, 236k metro; 95 miles

For traffic coming from Milwaukee and southward, Oshkosh probably has the most significant highway junction in US-45, leading to US-10 west to Stevens Point and I-39/US-51. US-10 is a more important road but traffic coming from Milwaukee is unlikely to use 41 to Appleton and then take US-10.

I think it's close because using one means skipping over the other two, and in any of the three cases it doesn't make much sense. But you also can't use all 3 because then it's like you wrote a paragraph on the signs which helps no one.

FdL isn't in the Fox Valley

Ok

[Ned Weasel]

There's also a diagrammatic in the lead up to it clearly showing I-35 exiting and I-335 continuing on. I think that's a perfect application for a diagrammatic–it doesn't really impart any useful lane-usage meaning, but it helps underscore how the interchange works and what to do to follow your desired route.

I don't know, maybe the best way to get rid of the MUTCD violation would be to put up a post-mounted sign about 1.5 miles in advance of the exit, reading:

Alt Rte to Kansas City
USE
[Kansas Turnpike] [I-335]

...and then remove Kansas City from the pull-through sign and leave it on the I-35 signs.  By the way, that diagrammatic sign really shouldn't show the deceleration lane, per the MUTCD.

Also, note that I said that TOTSOs in the middle of nowhere aren't something people encounter very often. If you can think of seven other examples in the whole country, that kind of proves the point I'm making. And I'm not really sure where that happens along I-44; the I-44 TOTSOs I can think of are in Oklahoma City or metro Tulsa. TOTSOs to switch a designation from one urban freeway to another are a much more common situation.

This sort of looks and feels like the middle of nowhere: https://goo.gl/maps/PQDd1eRtAq6Qsj3A7 , except it's right up against the city line, so take your pick as to how you want to define "middle of nowhere."  Maybe "edge of nowhere" would be a better term for that location.

And that example brings up another control city question!  Should Oklahoma City really be the control city for the Creek Turnpike instead of I-44?  Obviously, you can use the Creek Turnpike, since it connects back to I-44 on the other side of Tulsa and bypasses most of Tulsa altogether.  But you don't have to use the Creek Turnpike, and, depending on the traffic conditions at the time, I-44 might be the better route to Oklahoma City anyway, considering it's more direct.  (I feel like we've talked about this one before.)

[SEWIGuy]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

No not really.  This is why this debate over control cities is so maddening.  Controls cities are used to give a general direction for those who are "directionally challenged" or just need a reinforcement that the exit they are taking is the right one.  If you are in Sarasota, Fort Myers and Tampa make perfect sense as control cities.  Miami really doesn't.  It's a city on a different coast that while most definitely serviced by I-75, that's not where most of the traffic on I-75 is going.  They are going up and down the Gulf coast.

[JayhawkCO]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

I-75 is also the quickest way between Sault Ste. Marie and Naples. So then sign Naples there instead?

[thspfc]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

I-75 is also the quickest way between Sault Ste. Marie and Naples. So then sign Naples there instead?

So the key differences there:

- Tampa is 83 times bigger than Sault Ste. Marie
- Miami is 19 times bigger than Naples
- Tampa and Miami are 280 miles apart
- Sault Ste. Marie and Naples are 1,650 miles apart

[LM117]

Since I'm originally from NC, I'd say this crap on I-587/US-264 East takes the cake there:



There's absolutely ZERO reason for Kenly to be a control city for I-795 South. Heading in this direction from points west of Wilson, you reach I-95 before the I-795 split. Anybody going to Kenly would simply hop on I-95 South since it's a straight shot.

I-795 is intended to be a shortcut to Wilmington, so Wilmington needs to take Kenly's spot.

[JayhawkCO]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

I-75 is also the quickest way between Sault Ste. Marie and Naples. So then sign Naples there instead?

So the key differences there:

- Tampa is 83 times bigger than Sault Ste. Marie
- Miami is 19 times bigger than Naples
- Tampa and Miami are 280 miles apart
- Sault Ste. Marie and Naples are 1,650 miles apart

Just making a point that you can't apply one set of rules to all situations, but you knew that.

[thspfc]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

I-75 is also the quickest way between Sault Ste. Marie and Naples. So then sign Naples there instead?

So the key differences there:

- Tampa is 83 times bigger than Sault Ste. Marie
- Miami is 19 times bigger than Naples
- Tampa and Miami are 280 miles apart
- Sault Ste. Marie and Naples are 1,650 miles apart

Just making a point that you can't apply one set of rules to all situations, but you knew that.

Literally nobody said that you CAN apply that set of rules to all situations. (is this the part where I say "and you know that" ?)

[JayhawkCO]

The point remains that it's silly to sign a control city only for the reason that the highway in question is the quickest way between two points. If there's a prominent city in between, that should be the default.

[roadman65]

What's the best route from Tampa to Miami? If it's I-75 then Miami should be signed from Tampa and vice versa.

No not really.  This is why this debate over control cities is so maddening.  Controls cities are used to give a general direction for those who are "directionally challenged" or just need a reinforcement that the exit they are taking is the right one.  If you are in Sarasota, Fort Myers and Tampa make perfect sense as control cities.  Miami really doesn't.  It's a city on a different coast that while most definitely serviced by I-75, that's not where most of the traffic on I-75 is going.  They are going up and down the Gulf coast.

It should be Fort Myers as it's one of the largest cities( much larger than Naples) on the SW Gulf.  Technically Coral Springs is bigger, but I-75 don't go there and most know Fort Myers over Coral Springs anyway.

South of Fort Myers Miami does make perfect sense as many from SW are crossing the state there.

Also Lake City from Ocala is premature as Gainesville is completely overlooked along I-75.


In GA, Tipton is overlooked and skipped for Valdosta going SB staring from I-475 at Bollingboke near Macon.

[ran4sh]

The point remains that it's silly to sign a control city only for the reason that the highway in question is the quickest way between two points. If there's a prominent city in between, that should be the default.

There's nothing more prominent than Tampa or Miami in between Tampa and Miami.