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Massachusetts

Started by hotdogPi, October 12, 2013, 04:50:12 PM

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yankee.peddler

roadman65,

Ironically, if MassDPW (now MassDOT) had kept US 1 on its pre-1989 alignment through Boston, instead of creating the nonsensical concurrency with I-93, MA 1A would have a full interchange with US 1 coming out of the Sumner Tunnel:  US 1 North via I-93 and US 1 South via Storrow Drive.

At state borders, the MassDOT Town Line paddle signs generally place the state in small black letters underneath the town name.  I believe the sign in question has "Massachusetts" and "Rhode Island" under "Attleboro" and "Pawtucket" respectively, unless the sign has been changed since I last passed it.  Sometimes the sign features an abbreviation of the state next to the town name.  This variation may be found on US 5 on the MA-VT border.

To my knowledge, the only US "A" route in Mass was US 5A, which was signed until about 1970 as a regional alternative to US 5 (pre I-91) between Hartford and Springfield.  As a native New Englander, it never bothered me that US 1A and MA 1A were signed differently:  it's the same number.
"I'll just stay on 6 all the way to Ely..." J. Kerouac


roadman65

Yeah I remember that when US 1 used Storrow Drive and the VFW Parkway.  I was thinking about that one as in those days it would have worked. 

Thanks for giving me the name of those interesting town border signs.  Paddle Signs they are called, so I now know.  To me they are quite attractive and much more than the WELCOME sign they have on US 1 which is too plain.

Yeah it is all the same as I point out designations whether state or US do not matter as its the route number.  Though I was pointing out how interesting that one is how it changes at the state line from US to state the same route.  Although Business US 1 & 9 in New Jersey used to change into NY 1A and NY 9A inside the Holland Tunnel as well years ago.  That went from a business to an alternate which is actually a different loop designation all together.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

spooky

Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2014, 08:00:02 AM
Yeah I remember that when US 1 used Storrow Drive and the VFW Parkway.  I was thinking about that one as in those days it would have worked. 

What would have worked?

QuoteThanks for giving me the name of those interesting town border signs.  Paddle Signs they are called, so I now know.  To me they are quite attractive and much more than the WELCOME sign they have on US 1 which is too plain.

Paddle signs is a roadgeek term to describe the small green guide signs used in Massachusetts. MassDOT Highway Division calls them D6 and D8 signs.

I've heard the town line signs called "bookleaf" signs, since they are meant to look like an open book.


PHLBOS

#103
It is worth noting that the Big Dig exit ramps were designed years before the decision was made to reroute US 1 onto I-93.  Be that as it may, the main issue I have with the Big Dig ramp arrangement is that the interchange with the Sumner/Callahan Tunnels (MA 1A) as well as Mass Pike/Ted Williams Tunnel (I-90) aren't full/complete movement interchanges. 

Forget the 1A through-movements for a moment (such can be handled theoretically by exiting onto the surface streets and follow the the nearest on-ramps to the tunnels); during the Big Dig's relatively short existence those extra ramps could've come in handy when one of the tunnels is either closed for repairs/construction and/or accidents. 

While the tunnel ceiling collapse of 2006 did not occur on the actual Ted Williams Tunnel per say, it did happen far enough along the eastern end of the mainline I-90 tunnel (aka the Liberty Tunnel) that it indeed impacted would-be traffic coming from I-93 North (the tunnel in question was closed for repairs following the collapse) as well as through I-90 East traffic.  Had there been a direct ramp from I-93 North to the Callahan Tunnel (MA 1A North), like there was pre-Big Dig; the associated traffic headaches due to the tunnel closure for repairs would've been greatly reduced.

Similar could be said when the Callahan Tunnel was closed earlier this year for repairs (there is no direct access to I-90 East from I-93 South).

At least when the Sumner Tunnel is closed for similar repairs as its Callahan counterpart (sometime later this year or early next year (?)); those using the Ted Williams Tunnel have direct access to I-93 North as well as I-93 South.

From what I've been told, the reasoning behind rerouting US 1 onto I-93 was due to trucks either hitting the low clearance overpasses and getting stuck on Storrow Drive (despite the various NO TRUCKS - CARS ONLY signs posted).  Such was likely the rationale why MA 1A wasn't designated along Storrow Drive, which would've given motorists a signed alternate to US 1 in the immediate Boston area.  It's worth noting that Storrow Drive only had the US 1 designation for about 18 years (1971-1989); prior to 1971, it was part of MA C1.  The C routes were all discontinued (in most instances, redesignated to their parent numbers) circa 1971.

Truth be told, most motorists don't really know (nor care) that the XA routes technically run along their respective parent routes.  In MA, the only known signed US 1/MA 1A concurrency is the relatively short stretch of US between Newburyport & Salisbury; though it's only signed that way southbound on the Salisbury side.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman65

What I find even more interesting is the fact that the Sumner/ Callahan Tunnels cannot be anymore used for contraflow as before the Big Dig.  Now with the new ramp configurations it cannot be done unless they close off the Sumner Tunnel ramp to Goverment Center which is on the extreme left, but that would make it awkward for SB I-93 to reach the Sumner if the Callahan is closed.

If they could be contraflow tunnels again, either one could be closed with minimal impact on traffic.

However, I can see the logic in the missing ramps at the I-93/ Tunnels interchange as the Ted Williams Tunnel does now cover those missing movements.  Though I am surprised that MassDOT did not include a SB I-93 to EB I-90 ramp since you can go WB to NB very easily.

As far as XA routes go, I am very sure many do not even realize the meaning of the A suffix and just like me as a child considered it a route of its own as being a loop of the number it bears.  Like I said in another post, most northerners call all roads regardless of designation a "ROUTE" and hardly ever uses the "I" for interstate.  So whether you make it US 1 ALT or SR 1 ALT it will appear the same in people's eyes.

Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

PHLBOS

Quote from: roadman65 on August 21, 2014, 10:57:11 AMHowever, I can see the logic in the missing ramps at the I-93/ Tunnels interchange as the Ted Williams Tunnel does now cover those missing movements.
Oh I know that and under normal operating circumstances, that's fine; however, as we've all seen or heard about over the last decade, those missing movements can be problematic (especially during peak times) when one of the tunnels is temporarily closed for whatever reason.

In contrast & IIRC, the various bridge & tunnel crossings in NYC & Philly have fully accessible interchanges w/connecting highways. 

Note: while I-95 does not have a direct ramp to the Ben Franklin Bridge (I-676/US 30 East); one can connect with such in a simple, logical matter and such routing is clearly marked & signed.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Beeper1

The issue of MA 1A in Attleboro is also lessened now that RI has "downgraded" its US 1A to just RI 1A.  About two years ago, all the US 1A shields in East Providence and Pawtucket were replaced with just RI 1A shields.   This was deliberate, these were the only shields changed on most assemblies and they got all of them.  Not sure about the stretch in Cranston/Providence, as I haven't been that way in a while.   The only US-1A shields I know still exist are the ones on the Exit 18 BGSs on I-95.       

roadman65

I noticed that once US 1A (or RI 1A now as you say) according to street view does not have any signs whatsoever after it concurs with both I-195 and US 6 in East Providence.  Where 1A leaves I-195 at Exit 2 and through Providence there are no trailblazers for it at all even where US 44 is signed on Exit 2 as both of them routes have a small concurrency once free from the interstate.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

bob7374

Quote from: roadman65 on August 22, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
I noticed that once US 1A (or RI 1A now as you say) according to street view does not have any signs whatsoever after it concurs with both I-195 and US 6 in East Providence.  Where 1A leaves I-195 at Exit 2 and through Providence there are no trailblazers for it at all even where US 44 is signed on Exit 2 as both of them routes have a small concurrency once free from the interstate.
Were the RI US 1A signs an error from the beginning, or just not replaced with the proper signs until recently? Looking through the AASHTO Route Log from 1989, there is no entry for a US 1 Alternate route in RI, there is one for CT though. Haven't looked through the earlier decisions posted recently yet.

roadman65

http://www.us-highways.com/altus.htm According to Robert V. Droz there is an Alternate bannered US 1 through the Greater Providence area and even has the MA 1A section included.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Alps

Quote from: bob7374 on August 23, 2014, 02:39:44 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 22, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
I noticed that once US 1A (or RI 1A now as you say) according to street view does not have any signs whatsoever after it concurs with both I-195 and US 6 in East Providence.  Where 1A leaves I-195 at Exit 2 and through Providence there are no trailblazers for it at all even where US 44 is signed on Exit 2 as both of them routes have a small concurrency once free from the interstate.
Were the RI US 1A signs an error from the beginning, or just not replaced with the proper signs until recently? Looking through the AASHTO Route Log from 1989, there is no entry for a US 1 Alternate route in RI, there is one for CT though. Haven't looked through the earlier decisions posted recently yet.
I don't think Alternate routes are necessarily included in AASHTO logs. It definitely was official while it existed. I'm not changing my US 1A page.

Zeffy

This has probably been asked before, (and by myself no-less, but my memory is goddamned terrible) but in the case of Massachusetts paddle signs, is the top sign supposed to be larger than the sign below it? For example:


From Google Street View

I feel like it is much harder to attempt to read the second sign (for 128 South) than it is to the Northbound one because there's a significant size difference in the two signs.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Pete from Boston

Yes. The little sign usually has a left turn, or in this case secondary right.  The larger sign is emphasizing "the turn's right here or very near," while in this instance the second turn is probably after crossing over or under 128, at which point it likely has its own large sign. 

PHLBOS

Quote from: Zeffy on September 19, 2014, 10:52:23 AM
This has probably been asked before, (and by myself no-less, but my memory is goddamned terrible) but in the case of Massachusetts paddle signs, is the top sign supposed to be larger than the sign below it? For example:


From Google Street View

I feel like it is much harder to attempt to read the second sign (for 128 South) than it is to the Northbound one because there's a significant size difference in the two signs.

FWIW, that's an older spec'd D6/D8 sign (MassDOT's official term).  Newer signs now feature MA route shields with a black border (like the stand-alone trailblazers) and are usually the same size in both the upper (D6 aka Paddle) and lower (D8) panels.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman

Current D6 signs are normally 5 feet wide, and current D8 signs are normally 4 feet wide.  Some D8 signs are 5 feet wide, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Of course, once MassDOT finally develops and adopts the new D6/D8 sign design standards to reflect the transition to mixed-case lettering (which should happen sometime in 2015), it's highly likely that the current top-mounted signs and tubular posts will go away, to be replaced with extruded panels and steel-beam posts (if not the 'tuning fork' posts used in Downtown Boston for similar signs installed during the Big Dig).
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

mass_citizen

Out of curiosity, how does the lettering being mixed case necessitate the change in sign type and support? An extruded panel with steel beam post and associated foundation costs more than the current support types.

southshore720

Zeffy, here is our thread on the MA Paddle Signs if you want to catch up on it:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12514.0

yankee.peddler

Quote from: mass_citizen on September 20, 2014, 03:11:23 AM
Out of curiosity, how does the lettering being mixed case necessitate the change in sign type and support? An extruded panel with steel beam post and associated foundation costs more than the current support types.

Perhaps it's an assumption (probably correct) that mixed-case lettering is going to necessitate a larger text size in order to be legible to drivers, and the larger text size is going to necessitate a wider sign and redesigned supports.

I have mixed feelings about the D6/D8 assemblies.  On one hand, they're generally quite durable and helpful to the motorist -- certainly more so than the surface road signage crap deposited then neglected by Connecticut and Rhode Island.  On the other hand, the aesthetic appearance of the D8 signs bothers me.  Whatever direction or destination posted on the D8 sign looks like an afterthought and less important than the direction or destination posted on the D6.
"I'll just stay on 6 all the way to Ely..." J. Kerouac

PHLBOS

Quote from: roadman on September 19, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
Current D6 signs are normally 5 feet wide, and current D8 signs are normally 4 feet wide.  Some D8 signs are 5 feet wide, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Of course, once MassDOT finally develops and adopts the new D6/D8 sign design standards to reflect the transition to mixed-case lettering (which should happen sometime in 2015), it's highly likely that the current top-mounted signs and tubular posts will go away, to be replaced with extruded panels and steel-beam posts (if not the 'tuning fork' posts used in Downtown Boston for similar signs installed during the Big Dig).
Personally, I would hate to see the tubular post-mounts go away.  If the overall text heights aren't going to change; I don't see why MassDOT has to totally redo their mounting specs in the process.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

roadman

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2014, 08:41:38 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 19, 2014, 06:21:56 PM
Current D6 signs are normally 5 feet wide, and current D8 signs are normally 4 feet wide.  Some D8 signs are 5 feet wide, but that is the exception rather than the rule.

Of course, once MassDOT finally develops and adopts the new D6/D8 sign design standards to reflect the transition to mixed-case lettering (which should happen sometime in 2015), it's highly likely that the current top-mounted signs and tubular posts will go away, to be replaced with extruded panels and steel-beam posts (if not the 'tuning fork' posts used in Downtown Boston for similar signs installed during the Big Dig).
Personally, I would hate to see the tubular post-mounts go away.  If the overall text heights aren't going to change; I don't see why MassDOT has to totally redo their mounting specs in the process.
Text heights are going from 6" uppercase to 8"/6" mixed case.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

adventurernumber1

I, myself have a question.

Ok, so me and my family took a trip to Boston in June 2013. For a few days we went to Martha's Vineyard (an island off the southern coast of MA), and in Falmouth we had to take a ferry to get to the island. Nothing wrong with that at all, just a question; has MassDOT ever thought about building a bridge from Falmouth to Vineyard Haven or Oaks Bluff? If it would be really expensive, they could make it a toll. It could be a new state route for MA, and it could even serve some of the towns on the island. Just an idea.
Now alternating between different highway shields for my avatar - my previous highway shield avatar for the last few years was US 76.

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roadman

I suspect the idea of a bridge from Falmouth to either Vineyard Haven or Oaks Bluff would run into even more political resistance from the rich and entitled locals who live on the islands than the wind turbines have.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

Alps

Quote from: roadman on September 22, 2014, 07:04:34 PM
I suspect the idea of a bridge from Falmouth to either Vineyard Haven or Oaks Bluff would run into even more political resistance from the rich and entitled locals who live on the islands than the wind turbines have.
For reference, the two closest streets on the island are Golf Club Road and Yacht Club Road.

Pete from Boston

I've never been to the Vineyard, but on Nantucket it seems like most people just drive off the ferry and park the car for the duration of the trip.  They don't need it because they already have a few cars they keep there for on-island use.

PHLBOS

Quote from: roadman on September 22, 2014, 06:02:46 PMText heights are going from 6" uppercase to 8"/6" mixed case.
And that's enough to change the whole spec.?
GPS does NOT equal GOD



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